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Now that DS is getting buffed, can we address offensive usage of it?
You know what i'm talking about. Someone gets hooked, they have DS, they get unhooked, then they go OUT OF THEIR WAY to force you to tunnel them, by body blocking for the unhooker and overall getting in the way and various other things.
With a buffed DS (even though it was already fine before) it means more people will run it, and it again opens up this "offensive use" of DS. You can't tunnel the guy, because they have DS, and you can't ignore them, because they physically get in your way. The only option you have is to down them and slug them, and i'd imagine the DS +UB combo will still work fine.
Just remove the endurance effect on unhook, and create a new effect that gives the survivor no hitbox and collision, so they can't body block, and are even safer from getting tunneled.
Comments
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“even though it was already fine before” no the perk sucked
the rest i agree with0 -
Slug them.
It's literally free pressure.
That's a completely fine scenario.
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Unless they have OTR. Then they have unbreakable. Literally what they used to do.
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Yup just slug them. Problem solved.
They’re not gonna remove the basekit borrowed time. Survivors are gonna body block sometimes because that’s a tactic to help their team. Slugging is your counter. Use it.
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The perk definitely wasn't fine before, it was awful.
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They aren't talking about OTR or Unbreakable, they are talking about "offensive uses of DS"
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Unbreakable.
I guarantee the build will be:
DS + Unbreakable + OTR + Dead hard.
If they body block you, you MUST hit them, giving the other person time to get away so now you have 2 choices:
- Continue chasing the other guy
- Chase the person you just gave endurance to.
The other guy is much further away now and the chase will last significantly longer, at least 25+ seconds longer so that is not a great option. If you chase the person who has endurance and you hit them, now you have 2 options:
- You pick them up
- You don't pick them up.
If you pick them up, you eat a DS, and it all repeats and then they have dead hard for after
If you don't pick them up, they have unbreakable, and the amount of time you spend trying to find someone else means they pick themselves up, meanwhile during this time the other 3 survivors have been working gens. By the time you get into another chase, the guy you downed now is up again and on a gen.
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Now we're talking about UB apparently, very well.
You've now burnt an important resource and you've still wasted the Survivors time. You are in a winning position as there are still two Survivors doing nothing.
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You seem to think killers have all this time in the world. Do the simple math. Here is the scenario.
You hook a survivor, and someone unhooks them, hell lets say before you even finish walking away, lets say they unhook and you are 12 meters away (that's about 2 lunges worth of distance). So you turn around Here are the possible scenarios if the unhooked guy body blocks. We'll do it assuming they don't even use pallets or windows and just shift + w to a corner of the map.
- You hit the unhooked guy, ignore them, and continue chasing the other one
- You hit the unhooked guy, chase them and slug them
- You hit the unhooked guy, chase them and pick them up to eat the DS
Lets do the math in these scenarios.
Scenario 1: You hit the unhooked guy, ignore them, and continue chasing the other one
- You chase the survivors and it takes you 14 seconds to get into lunge range
- You hit the body blocker, and now you eat a 2.7 second cooldown. During this time, the actual target gains about 12 meters.
- You take 14 seconds to get into lunge range again and hit them.
- They get a speed boost, and it takes you 18 seconds to get into lunge range and you hit them again. Now you have your down
You just spent 14 + 2.7 + 14 + 18. During this time, the 1st survivor finishes their endurance and hops on a gen for about 18 seconds. During the rest of the time the other 2 survivors have been on gens the whole time. This amounts to 115.4 seconds of progress across 3 different gens.
Scenario 2: You hit the unhooked guy, chase them and slug them and they use UB to get up
- You chase the survivors and it takes you 14 seconds to get into lunge range
- You hit the body blocker, and now you eat a 2.7 second cooldown. During this time they get endurance, and gain about 12 meters of distance. Taking about 18 seconds to get into lunge range to hit them again.
- You walk away and start going to another survivor. It's probably going to take you around 15-20 seconds to cross the map and go to where you need to be. Lets be generous and say 15 seconds.
- You find another survivor and you start your typical shift + w chase, these chases take about 60 seconds to hook (i have the math if you want, but i feel like i have shown you the math before, but if you want it let me know).
- The original guy takes 24 seconds to be picked up from unbreakable, and then probably another 10-15 to find a gen. The person who unhooked the original guy, also probably takes around 30 seconds to find a gen.
- Based on all that, you have 1 survivor on gens the entire time. Your second survivor that gets chased is on gens for the entire time minus 60 seconds. You have a 3rd survivor, the unhooker. on a gen for the entire time minus 30 seconds, and you have the unhooked guy off the gen for about 40 seconds. That all totals up to
- Survivor 1: 109.7 seconds (a full gen)
- Survivor 2 (chased guy): 49.7 seconds (a half gen)
- Survivor 3 (unhooker): 79.7 seconds (most of a gen)
- Survivor 4 (unhooked guy): 69.7 seconds (about 3/4 of a gen)
So during that time, you got 2 hooks, and survivors finished a gen outright and nearly finished 2 others, and halfway finished a 4th. So what, 1 full gen and nearly at 1 gen left? Seems balanced.
Scenario 3: You hit the unhooked guy, chase them, and eat the DS and chase them again
- You chase the survivors and it takes you 14 seconds to get into lunge range
- You hit them, they get a speed boost gaining 18 seconds of distance.
- You hit them again, they go down taking 2.7 seconds.
- You pick them up, taking 3 seconds.
- They DS you, stunning you for 5 seconds, gaining 20 meters of distance
- It takes you 27.5 seconds to catch up.
- You hit them again
- Pick them up for 3 seconds.
- Walk to a hook ~10 seconds
- Hook them 1.5 seconds
You just spent 14 + 18 + 2.7 + 3 + 27.5 + 3 + 10 + 1.5 = 79.7 seconds.
During which time, 2 of the survivors were on a gen, and the unhooker probably took around 30 seconds to find a gen. So the survivors finished nearly 2 gens, and a 3rd gen is around half. And now you have a 2nd hook.
This means that option 1 is your best option assuming no mistakes are made. But now imagine you again, are trying to not tunnel, so the survivors repeat it once more and they get 230.8 seconds of progress on gens. Then they do it again and its 346.2 seconds of progress. And oh look, all the gens are done.
Now, without any of these if the unhooked person can't body block (because of fear of tunneling), you have scenario 1, but with the unhooked guy being injured much sooner:
- You chase the survivors and it takes you 14 seconds to get into lunge range
- You hit them they get a speed boost and gain 18 seconds of distance
- You hit them again and down them, pick them up, walk to a hook, hook them.
Now you spent 14 + 18 + 2.7 + 3 + 10 + 1.5 = 49.2 seconds. Where you have 2 survivors with half a gen done, and the unhooked guy spent probably 20-30 seconds getting on a gen so basically barely any progress there, or spending time healing themselves. That is SIGNIFICANTLY less time.
The problem with stronger DS here is the person who does the body blocking now isn't afraid of getting tunneled, they WANT to get tunneled because it wastes more time. Whereas before they spent the duration of their time trying to NOT get tunneled. If someone tried to body block me before, DS was weaker, so i wasn't afraid of it as much, and i just wait out the basekit BT, if they have OTR, its still a decent chase, but again, the DS is weaker, so its counterable and because of this perception that it is a "bad perk" people typically aren't running it anyway.
Even doing this ONE TIME is going to waste so much more of a killer's time than it would if they could properly NOT TUNNEL.
Last but not least. The solution to tunneling is not to buff a perk that requires someone to pay money to get the DLC for, or wait for it to show up in the shrine with random chance. The solution to tunneling is a systemic fix that the game fundamentally is designed in a way such that survivors cannot be removed from the match "early" and the game is balanced around 4 survivors being in the game, not that 4 survivors being in the game means that the killer cannot keep up with them unless they end chases in 20 seconds.
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I'd trade it's offensive capabilities (collision) for getting better defensive tools. I want DS to be good enough that any survivor can get real use from the perk. Something like giving them a few seconds of WoO. That way less experienced survivors know where to run to. The hard skill check should definitely go. Missing a skill check shouldn't mean your anti-tunnel perk should not function.
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No offense, but you are creating a mathematically perfect scenario for a game built around RNG. That about ends the argument for me.
We will simply have to see how it plays out in-game. It's likely it won't be an issue; especially when one considers how many factors you need in order to have it be an issue, including having at least two good Survivors.
We do agree that tunneling needs to be a systemic change. DS isn't going to fix anything.
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Yeah maybe it should deactivate on protection hits that down you. If you aren't being tunneled you shouldnt get DS.
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We are removing the RNG as a variable by assuming the survivor is doing the least skillful thing the survivor can do, literally shift +w to a corner of the map. There is no RNG to account for there, because they aren't using loops, or pallets or windows, or anything. They do the least skillful thing a survivor can do in a chase, that i feel most people would agree with is "boring"
If anything, that RNG ADDS time to the chase beyond that. I'm assuming that this is the LEAST amount of time that should be wasted here assuming they don't do anything other than the bare minimum. If this all happens near the killer shack for example, it could significantly increase these times if the survivor uses those structures.
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We are not removing RNG from the rest of their team. We aren't accounting for the Meg doing a Glyph, the Sable in the basement with an Invocation or the Dwight in a locker.
You are balancing it around an efficient team when the VAST VAST VAST majority of teams do not function that way. I understand that's all you care about, and we've had this discussion before, but it's not realistic.
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And that is precisely the problem.
You are looking at survivors actively not doing their objective. This is solo queue low mmr behavior. The game should not be balanced in such a way the survivors are able to still win if they just refuse to do their objective. Otherwise it would literally be impossible for killers to ever get a single kill.
This would be like saying that killers should also win if they just run the the basement and stare at the wall.
Why is it that one side gets to have the benefit of "not playing efficiently" (I.E. literally doing the objective they are given) and still have a chance to win, but the other side doesn't?
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That wouldn't quite solve the problem, because the "protection hit" happens on the endurance hit, not the down hit. It would at least help because then you can "wait it out" but they can take perks like OTR to make that impossible.
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This is not low-mmr solo q. This is average MMR. Nobody is always on a gen; there's travel time and an unknown factor of not knowing where the Killer is. There's inefficiency everywhere in 99% of games; ignoring that is foolish.
Killer is far easier to play efficiently, just via the nature of the game. All you have to do is tunnel someone off of hook and you're already well on your way.
Nobody, except you, said that. I pointed out that you are putting in a perfect scenario in a game dominated by RNG and average inefficient players.
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