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The Sadako Rework is a Fundamental Failure in it's Current State. (Long Breakdown)
The TL:DR version is this. VS bad survivors you are still going to steam roll every lobby even though alot of the changes were geared towards these lobbies. VS good survivors you LITERALLY do not have a power anymore and there is nothing you can do to get that power no matter how good you are as a Sadako. All matches come down to how much or how little the survivors knows your power. You have balanced her power around people who don't understand it, but they still do not understand the power because it's extremely complicated in comparison to every other killer and you've made it IMPOSSIBLE to play VS good survivors without resorting to just tunnelling people off hook which not only isn't fun, but can be done with much better results by literally any other killer. Resulting in the only fun matches being ones where players kind of know what they are doing but not really.
"Condemn Is Just Supposed To Be For Slowdown"
First let's get this over with now because I am sick of seeing this argument made by people, Condemn is how you play Sadako, it is not "just slowdown". Now, if you choose to play Sadako without taking condemn into account by all means do that. But you are playing her purposely ignoring literally half her power. Without condemn, you are Dredge without anti-loop, without Nightfall and a TP the survivors delete for 70s. Dredge is already a mid killer at best, deleting over 2/3rds of his power is and never will be a viable killer. The condemn is what makes her viable.
I see comparisons to Pig and her Bear Traps all the time. This is not the same situation where her Bear Traps are legitimate slowdown. When a survivor interacts with a bear trap to remove it, they HAVE to run all over the map, spent about 10s interacting with the power for a chance to remove the bear trap. Wasting potentially MINUTES of time to remove this trap. This is nothing but free pressure for the Pig and therefor is legitimate slowdown even if you aren't actively box hunting.
As a survivor against a Sadako, her condemn is so bad right now you can go the entire match barely having condemn pushed on you because you as a survivor can prevent it being pushed on you in it's entirety and there is nothing a Sadako can do to stop it. Every single time I play vs 3.0 Sadako, at most I get 3 stacks of condemn pushed on me by the Sadako in the ENTIRE MATCH. I inflict myself with more condemn turning off TV's than Sadako ever pushes on me. Not only this, but her condemn even if I have any amount on me holds 0 threat because tape interactions are so fast you can do it mid chase. Meaning very rarely if at all do you ever need to waste time cleansing condemn if you have even a rudimentary knowledge of how she works and even if you do have to do it, you don't even need to detour to do it you can just do it while in a chase. Unlike the Pig where if you're interacting with her slowdown and she finds you, you can no longer interact with it and gain further pressure.
Not only this, but interacting with her condemn DIRECTLY DELETES HER OTHER POWER. The TP she has goes for 70s for interacting with the power and there is NO DOWNSIDE. What this means is even if you like to run builds that don't focus on condemn, you can't do it because you don't ever have a TV on to build pressure that way. 1.0 Sadako you could legitimately run a build like "Make Your Choice" and sometimes get value because grabbing a tape built passive condemn so you could not just freely run around with a tape turning off every TV with 0 downsides. So not only is this rework worse for condemn Sadako than 1.0 and 2.0, but it's worse for every other playstyle since the one power you do have just gets deleted freely. Comparing it to the Pig is silly because it would be like if the Pig loses the ability to crouch or ambush when survivors are trying to remove a bear trap. Also comparing Sadako's condemn that can be cleansed in 1/10th the time while directly hurting her other abilities to another ability that is pure, free value even if you do absolutely nothing to interact with it outside of putting on the hat is quite frankly, ridiculous.
Therefor using the excuse of "Condemn should just be slowdown" DOES NOT WORK. 1.0 Sadako was only viable with a very specific, very unfun version (to play against) of condemn pushing in the higher level of play.
2.0 Sadako heavily leaned into the idea that condemn is her power which is how it should be and why she was actually viable for the first time. Since you had full control over your power if you micro managed well enough and why even though 2.0 Sadako was less interactive than 1.0, it was much more enjoyable for me since it felt more natural and the counterplay on the survivor side was also interactive. 2.0 Sadako I never lobby dodged, I never felt anxiety of playing and I always enjoyed every single match no matter the difficulty because I always felt like I could do something and had a power. There was always a choice I could make to change the tide of battle as both survivor and killer.
3.0 has tried to add the macro of 1.0 Sadako with the more natural and healthy condemn playstyle of 2.0 Sadako but fundamentally fails because as a survivor you hold her power hostage while the power is still too complicated for new players.
I find myself dodging lobbies more than ever because you literally need to if you want to have fun. You HAVE to buff Sadako in some way so that deleting her power isn't the easiest thing to do while having no downsides.
Suggestions
I'll never make a complaint without a potential fix. I'm not saying all these changes should be done, I'm just making a list of potential changes so you can't hold her hostage.
- Remove TV auras or substantially lower the range you see the aura. I shouldn't be able to have permanent wallhack on the TV aura's to know exactly how to prevent condemn 24/7 but just never being in the aura. Bad survivors don't use these auras anyway, all you're doing is massively buffing good ones.
- Push condemn at the start or in the middle of a TP. One change you explicitly said you wanted to do was the pushing condemn mid chase, but you can completely deny this because the condemn is pushed at the end of a TP and you have wallhacks on all the TV's. It makes it way too easy to walk away from a TV and completely deny the condemn push.
- Tape break on hit with changes from 2.0. You don't need to push 2 stacks of condemn like 2.0 Sadako (1 or even 0.5 would be nice). But grabbing a tape that's meant to be cursed should not completely counter Sadako in her entirety. Getting caught out with a tape SHOULD be a threat. It currently isn't. Or instead of pushing condemn, make it so any TV that was turned off by that tape turns back on. That way there is not only direct counterplay to someone turning off the TV's freely, but it doesn't end up in 2.0 situation where no TV is on and survivors struggle to cleanse. While also the stacks of condemn they gained from turning off the TV's can't just be instantly cleansed mid chase and will actually hold a threat making it no longer just free value for holding a tape and turning off TV's. It actually adds a risk reward dynamic for higher lobbies for both sides while not affecting lower lobbies who just turn off TV's by grabbing a tape then depositing that one.
- Tape interactions NEED to be classed as conspicuous actions. With a 5s DS stun on the way this will change will discourage slugging. Right now you can get off a hook, immediately interact with a tape and still have all your second chance anti-tunnel perks meaning you can freely cleanse condemn with 0 downside. With 5s DS in the game and I know someone is high condemn, I'm either going to tunnel them off the hook before they get a tape or knock them when they do get one and leave them slugged for the DS timer since if I try to pickup they will easily get it off. Again, this is another un-counterable situation for this supposed "slowdown" that's going to occur. This change won't be needed if you implement tape breaking again.
That's it. This isn't even getting into issues like the addons but never should a killer feel so powerless that you need to pick and choose lobbies just to have a good time. Alot of these changes won't affect the lower skill lobbies but will have profound changes to the higher skilled ones and will make Sadako once again feel like a killer with a power. It will also mean you have to use some level of brain power to play vs her rather than now where you can just autopilot your way through matches.
Comments
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I agree they should hide the TV auras, but only when they are holding a tape. This means survivors will be able to find a TV to turn off easily enough, but cannot abuse the aura reading in chase. The buffs BHVR made recently to her post-Projection speed boost however did help with this issue.
Tapes breaking on hits is one of the worst things we could go back to. 100% against this. Her first rework was just a nightmare and this was a large part of it.
I'd rather they go back to her release version where she only spreads condemn around the TV she projects to, but increase the range or stacks applied upon Projection. Also go back to how the tapes used to work with ticking condemn and survivors being discouraged to grab tapes unless they want to deny mobility. These changes and keeping all the other QoL changes along with Ring Drawing nerf would be her best version imo. It would allow for skill but also be balanced.
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This was very thorough and I 100% agree with you, it’s nice to see that I am not alone in this. Thankfully, there are a few others out there that are supporting me and this as well.
The only thing I do not agree with is “Tape interactions NEED to be classed as conspicuous actions. ”
I could be very wrong on this, but I do not believe going up against other killers, and using the killer interactions causes the conspicuous notification. 🔔
AnyWho, I do appreciate this post and I am currently making a lot of contact so behavior can see why Sadako 3.0 is actually an issue that needs to be fixed.1 -
I couldn’t agree more on this. 💯🥰 Always good to see you pop up sistah! Hahahahah
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I think Tv auras should be removed since it removes a lot of the horror factor from Sadako and I loved playing against 1.0. I know that this version needs the auras, because you are condemned in seconds without, therefore they should go back to 1.0 with the buffs from the reworks.
I completely agree with you that breaking tapes with hits was very annoying and often snowballed someone out of the game. I really disliked it.
I really wish they go back to the release version, it was so close to perfect. All it needed was shorter Tv cooldowns and a small buff to condemned (either a bigger condemned range or my idea making condemned based around the proximity 2 stacks 0-8m; 1stack 8-16m; 0,5stacks 16-24m)
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You make the issues clear very well. I completely agree on them with you. It‘s just that it doesn’t matter how good Sadako play‘s more like how bad survivors play. She is so bad against good survivors and all efforts for making her easier for new players (which don’t use their advantage) only made her terrible against good players.
I loved Og Sadako, she was so close to being perfect. I hope they just go back to her OG version‘s mechanics. Therefore they should change her current version and keep the other changes:
- Tape instertion speed back to 2s
- Remove TV auras (only show where you have to deliver your tape)
- No one stack condemned trade to turn of TVs
- Passive condemned again
- Only the Tv you teleport to gives condemned
Then condemned should get one of those two buffs:
- Range increase to 20-24m
- Condemned based around the proximity to one Tv; this means you get 0,5stacks 24-16m; 1stack 16-8m and 2 stacks 8-0m
The addons, that are important to me, which also should return are og ring drawing, og yoichis fishing net, og reikos watch and og iri tape.
OG sadako would be such a good/ healthy/ fair and scary killer with the buffs from the reworks. She never needed reworks to beginn with just some buffs!
Post edited by jonifire on2 -
I agree with pretty much all your suggestions. Passive condemn gain again in exchange for only the Projection TV giving condemn is a fine trade. I also like the idea of condemn amount gained tied to distance from TV. Only thing I disagree with is restoring old Ring Drawing add-on; this add-on resulted in the slugging meta that so many survivors hated. I'd rather they not bring that add-on back into its old form as a result.
OG sadako would be such a good/ healthy/ fair and scary killer with the buffs from the reworks.
Completely agree. Her original version was the most fun and also was the most thematically correct to the source materials. I wish BHVR would make such changes but tbh, I kind of just want them to also not touch her again. She is in a decent spot now even if it is not the most ideal. Last thing I would want is BHVR doing a 3rd rework and having it be as disastrous as the 1st rework.
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Thanks for the reply. I‘m happy you are my opinion. Ring drawing should at least work for healths and not for downed heals like it did in the first rework.
Honestly I don‘t want another rework, I just want A REVERT WHERE THEY LITERALLY CHANGE NOTHING MORE THAN WHAT I SUGGESTED back to her og version.
The reworks were so unnecessary to begin with I‘m just sad after all the post we did, we still didn‘t Archive the revert to her OG version with buffs. I hope the devs read this and just give her back to us after such a long time. I don‘t want to wait years like all the feddy mains since it‘s so simple what we want. They don‘t even need to reimagine things.
Also if a dev reads this it would be really nice if we get some sort of answer even if you don‘t say much.
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VS bad survivors you are still going to steam roll every lobby even though alot of the changes were geared towards these lobbies. VS good survivors you LITERALLY do not have a power anymore and there is nothing you can do to get that power no matter how good you are as a Sadako.
I have played mainly Sadako as killer and there are intermediate survivors as well. You have to take into account how the developers want her to be balanced, and since she has one of the better kill rates across all MMRs, you can't just simply buff her. The very fact that she has a built-in mori AND a complicated power means she will over perform at lower mmr and intermediate (if you indeed play it like a sweat) level of play.
Do you balance her around lower/intermediate players or high mmr/competitive players ? It's normal to struggle against good SWFs and higher mmr players since you are a M1 killer, and it's normal to steam roll lower level players because of her mori and complicated power. It's the nature of her design and the learning curve of the game.
However, I do find myself agreeing with the fact that she needs something in order to combat good players that play around her power well, thus rendering her into a wandering stealth-ish M1 killer, but you also have to address the fact that she over performs at mid/low levels. Adding condemn when picking up a tape and/or lowering her TVs cooldown (making it so you can teleport more often) will mean that good players won't be able to completely deny her power which is a problem indeed. At the same time, you need to keep the experience fun and interactive for lower skilled survivors. Survivors need to understand that picking up tapes is good for them since it denies her power. I think this one needs to trigger our monkey brain in order to work, like a sound effect (tv static or stronger lullaby) when you are within a powered tv that gets removed when you pick up a tape, you could give her blindness base kit when within powered tvs, UI improvements to make it clearer that you need to get a tape. Something that says "powered tvs = bad and picking tapes = good".
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Sadako is one of easiest when it comes to Intermediate survivors, because it's as simple as: pick tape, do gen, avoid tvs.
She doesn't even have any real antiloop, I'd say even trapper is more problematic for them.
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Tapes breaking on hits is one of the worst things we could go back to. 100% against this. Her first rework was just a nightmare and this was a large part of it.
Why? it took skill for survivor to loop to hold onto the tape. the killer gained rewards for being successful at the chase. The fact that this was removed is one of sole reasons to why current sadako is so bad in first place because the counter-play has to be so strong to prevent the killer from being able just spam TV TP and gain condemn for just existing(aka doing nothing).
@YayC brings up fantastic points to why the condemn is:
1) not comparable pig game-delay
2) ineffective(Condemn build-up)
3) held hostage by the survivor through tape mechanic.
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But she is not meant to have anti loop, you can get perks for that if anything. I would say that I don't agree with saying that she is one of the easiest for intermediate survivors, otherwise her kill rate wouldn't be as high as it is. She is one of the best now at breaking pallets and controlling the map, which is really good against all skill levels. At the end of the day, M1 killers will struggle against good survivors. Period.
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Agreeed! 💯 I’d be happy with this.
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Sadako has no anti loop and pseudo Stealth to make up for Condemned. However if said Condemned is nerfed, then other aspects of her kit has to be improved to compensate.
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What is even the point in playing Sadako besides liking the character's aesthetic? I used to be a Sadako 1.0 main but ever since 2.0 she has been ruined for me.
She has stealth that is countered by a lullaby. She has mobility that Survivors can disable with no downside. She has slowdown that is extremely difficult to get value of that Survivors can mostly ignore then easily counter while also disabling her mobility at the same time. She has no chase power to make up for this. She literally cannot do anything. I can accomplish more with Freddy's power with his snares and teleport than I can with Sadako's power. I genuinely think Sadako is one of the worst Killers in the game. She has no identity and no purpose. There is literally no reason to play her aside from liking her visual design. Because if you play her for any other reason, you're better off playing literally any other Killer.
She is unequivocally abject trash.
EDIT: Oh, I can't forget to mention the Survivor experience. The one and only situation she excels at is bullying newer Survivors who don't know how to play the game, effectively serving as an exclusive noob stomper, making the game that much more miserable for only that part of the playerbase. Fantastic design. Abuses noobs and is abused by literally any other player above 10 MMR.
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Uh, as long as you manually breaks pallet it's nothing more than ordinary, and her map control isn't even reliable thanks to tvs being completely on control of survivors.
She is pretty much a stealth killer with no power (you know all other stealth killers has slowdown, one hit, speed boost and all that), who can SOMETIME teleport when their opponent is generous.
Using kill rate as a metrics for something is honestly weird, because none of those makes sense ever.
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Sadly I agree. I’ve played all versions. 1.0 was my favorite version. I’ve been fighting to get it back. I never wanted these other versions. Most of us never asked for all these different versions. We just wanted buffs for the current version of 1.0.
Not a completely different character than what we paid for
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Her stealth ability has potential, but it’s so bad. The lullaby, the visual terror radius, not to mention the lullaby is directional so you can hear exactly where she’s coming from.
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They should not encourage survivors to constantly turn of TVs, that is what ruined this killer for all OG Onryo players. They should finally return back to OG Sadako instead. She was fair/healthy/scary and fun to play and play against. She only needed some buffs and with the buffs from the rework she would be such a cool killer.
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I’m also a OG/1.0 Sadako enjoyer she was perfect. Good mobility, discouraged survivors to interact with TVs and optional condemned. I loved her back then, she was so much fun. Then the rework came and no more mobility and only condemned. It is terrible. All we old Onryo players wanted was a revert😔. The second rework is almost the same at least it shares the same problems as 2.0.
I don‘t know who at behavior designed this, but this version is nothing more than a noob stomper, she stands no chance against decent survivors.
1.0 would not have these problems!
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Exactly we wanted buffs no new versions, reworks→ just good old Sadako 1.0 with buffs nothing more, nothing less!
Yeah they have to adjust the visuel terror radius for difficult to hear stuff, because such things shouldn‘t be shown there, it‘s just unfair, that people who wouldn‘t hear it (people who can hear) → Oh there is a lullaby in the visuel heart beat- I think she is close- let‘s prerun.
The directional sounds are also unfair.
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To everyone on this thread and anyone else on this thread if you have a brief moment take a look at this compilation videos I made as to why the current version of 3.0 sadako is bad. I worked really hard on it.
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The main reason is was an issue is because of the reasons I said and outlined problems to fix it. 2.0 it was an issue because the TV stayed turned off. This resulted in situations where you couldn't find a turned on TV and combined with map wide condemn, when all the TV's were off it made it super easy for sadako to keep them off while spreading condemn because the second one turned back on you would TP on it, prevent them grabbing the tape while pushing map wide condemn. Since condemn isn't pushed map wide anymore, not only would the TV's staying off not be as much of a problem since you would need to be next to the turned on TV to get the stack but directly turning back on the TV's turned off on a tape break would allow them to actually find tapes. All while giving Sadako some kind of counterplay to just grabbing tapes.
The intermediate survivors I explicitly address because these are the only times matches are actually fun an interactive. Since they know just enough for you not to steam roll the lobby but not enough to entirely delete your power. Here's the problem, you don't balance a game with 0 regard for decent players. I can't think of another killer who right now has a power that can be entirely omitted by survivors if they know what they are doing. It's incredibly unhealthy gameplay and the longer this state of sadako goes on, the worse it will become. This is because more people will begin learning how to counter her, the only reason people don't fully know how to is because her power has changed 6 times in a year and noone plays her so you very rarely come across her so they don't feel the need to have to learn her counterplay.
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The issue is other killer interactions usually aren't half the killers power AND aren't immediate when they are. Right now OTR and DS give the survivor 80-60s of pure, free cleansing. With this in mind, the only counter to this would be to as I said, hard tunnel people off the hook. This creates a situation where it's in your best interest to assume players are running these perks and play in the most unfun way possible. I want to create and environment where playing in the least fun way possible isn't actively encouraged by the game design.
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Ahhh I see your point of view, that makes sense. I would agree.
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Yeah poor Sadako got left in the dumpster, she’s so bad right now. I personally think 2.0 version was perfect, it just needed some small tweaks for lower mmr players like showing the tv auras close by to help them find them, that’s it.
If we’re trying to fix this current version though, we can’t be requiring hooks for it to function. This defeats the entire point of the power. A mori is irrelevant if they’re dead on hook anyway. Not wasting time on pick up, walk, hook, is what gave her time efficiency back. Bring back destroying tapes on hit, that gives Sadako some control of her power.
If we’re trying to force hooking, bring back unlimited lock in. So whatever they’re at on one hook is locked in. Also, Ring Drawing needs to be base kit with this. Again destroy tapes on hit too. I still think requiring hooking is counterintuitive to her fundamental condemn design though.
As you already said, people saying her condemn is only for slow down is flawed thinking. If it’s just supposed to be passive slow down in the background then her entire power is a teleport that survivors can control? That’s it?
I say that’s it because her “anti loop” if we wanna call it that is a joke. It does basically nothing for loops. Her “stealth” also isn’t even a real stealth since it has a lullaby. She has nothing else.
Post edited by Blueberry on2 -
This is so true. I totally get where you are coming from, truly. I hope behavior makes some healthy changes. I don’t feel 3.0 was thought through fully. I feel it was rushed.
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We could also go the route of making her anti loop and stealth significantly better to compensate rather than making her condemn play style good again. My issue with this though is that then it’s again making just “another” anti loop killer or another killer with stealth, this isn’t unique. Her condemn play style makes for a unique match experience for both sides, not just another copy/paste of every other killer. This is essentially what happened to Pig.
I didn’t think the tape destruction on hit or slugging was an issue because it was balanced out by the fact of her having limited map mobility, being an m1 with no anti loop, and not getting the jump on anyone because her stealth doesn’t really exist. So “just” getting an m1 hit on people to lose a tape or slug them took high skill in the first place as she has nothing going for her to accomplish this.
The goal of killer design on every chapter should be, “how do we make this killer a unique experience to play as and against”. This is how you make dbd feel like it has different game modes when it doesn’t and prevent people from getting bored. They currently have way, way too many killers that play as and against exactly the same with a different coat of paint. That’s bad design. Many of these reworks are making more killers the same and removing their uniqueness instead of going the other way because people refuse to learn and adapt.
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Exactly my friend! You said it perfectly!
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I agree with everything even tho I would prefer 1.0 over 2.0. I think giving survivors in 2.0 TV wall hacks as solution is bad. We currently have that and it makes her tp to chase survivors useless. As soon as the aura disappears and the tp sound plays, survivors start to run in the opposite direction. Also permanent TV auras make some addons really useless. Then one personal thing I like about her; she is an actual scary/horror killer, which gets completely taken away by the TV auras.
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Also agree we don’t need 20 killers that play the same. Pig is one good example like you said, she was unique. You played around her traps and now she is just another killer with anti-loop and some stealth.
I didn’t think the tape destruction on hit or slugging was an issue because it was balanced out by the fact of her having limited map mobility, being an m1 with no anti loop, and not getting the jump on anyone because her stealth doesn’t really exist. So “just” getting an m1 hit on people to lose a tape or slug them took high skill in the first place as she has nothing going for her to accomplish this.
I also don‘t think both things were that problematic, it‘s not like downing someone is easy with Sadako. Also not many people actually slugged back then, most of them did actually chase and hook and took the condemned kill when they got it. My problems when playing as 2.0 were only that survivors constantly turned off all my TVs and the cooldown after each tp. Now we still got the problem, but much worse and her power gets shut down all the time. It doesn‘t really help much having her tp cooldown removed again when you got nothing to tp to. When playing against 2.0 I did not like that she non stop teleported without thinking and the 2stacks per hit often snowballed me out. Like I got a tape hit, I took the next tape and again hit until you got morid.
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that’s fair, I definitely agree with you, and I understand certain killers are harder to balance and others, but there’s so much feedback that we are giving them, these are all things that can be tested, they’re great ideas. None of it has to live until we are sure it’s the right solution. That’s how it should be for all killers, making the right healthy solution for each killer so that the counter is fair on both sides
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Sadly the ptbs just get pushed out even tho there are enough things that need to be improved or changed. It would be far better to delay the updates or at least those parts, who need more time until they are ready. Also not everything should be changed even tho it was planned, when you get overall negative feedback, otherwise the whole point of the ptb makes no sense.
Post edited by jonifire on1 -
If we’re trying to fix this current version though, we can’t be requiring hooks for it to function. This defeats the entire point of the
power. A mori is irrelevant if they’re dead on hook anyway. Not wasting time on pick up, walk, hook, is what gave her time efficiency back. Bring back destroying tapes on hit, that gives Sadako some control of her power.She is glorified pyramid head now. You can mori survivors on death hook. amazing. the dev are just really anti-slugging. If a killer is slugging, they just punished killer or attempt to neuter the killer's slugging capacity. They even attempted to neuter Twin's slugging.
The dev that designs these killers almost doesn't seem like same dev that balances them.
The goal of killer design on every chapter should be, “how do we make this killer a unique experience to play as and against”. This is how you make dbd feel like it has different game modes when it doesn’t and prevent people from getting bored. They currently have way, way too many killers that play as and against exactly the same with a different coat of paint. That’s bad design.
Slugging killer are unique design. That is why we need erase them and make them all into hook designs so you can enjoy your different coat of paint!
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”She is glorified pyramid head now.”
That’s exactly right and that’s what I don’t like. I love pyramid head but I want sadako to be unique and she should be.
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I would say her mori is worse then pyramid heads. Sadako has to do way more for way less.
I agree they don‘t need to make every killer play the same. In my opinion the only reason for playing buba was face camping → anti face camp. I really dislike that they introduced the anti 3gen/anti camp and removed hook grabs. The game becomes more and more stale and everyone is only tunneling.
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