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Gen Regression meta should be changed.
PR + Grim + Pop have some issues, this perk combo could be really oppressive on high mobility killers (Blight, Billy, Wesker) and usually those killer use this perk combo.
- PR on its own is fine - map RNG, 4 uses per match, don't incentivise tunneling.
- Grim is not ok - concept of perk that blocks survivors from doing their objective is boring, not fun and oppressive.
If gen is hit by PR, then blocked by Grim, killer can instantly go to survivors that worked on that gen. In that case, to proceed repairing gens, survivors must wait 12 seconds and then do 5% of gen. In this time high mobility killer is already there to chase nearby survivors.
It shouldn't work like that, Grim shouldn't prolong regression from painres, combined with painres it halts gen regression for 12 (40 on 4th hook) seconds, but realistically it makes gen regress more than painres because killer is on survivor that was doing gen.
- > Maybe make grim embrace or basically any blocked gen neutralise all regression actions? If gen was regressing with PR, hit with grim, then it would halt state of gen for 12 seconds, but after 12 seconds gen is in neutral state? But still, I'd look into that perk to make it have different effect or sth. - Pop also should be changed as it is too oppressive rn - killers can do it indefinitely. In recent update survivors have to do 5% of gen to stop regression and drawback for killer was that "only 8 regression events could be applied to generator". In my games I didn't see once gen that was kicked 8 times because game was long ago over.
- > Pop should also have limited usages, same as PR. Maps got smaller, gens are closer, gen time increased to 90 seconds, Prove was nerfed, Spine Chill was also nerfed, other gen speed perks have drawbacks (Overzealous - you have to find a totem and break it, also effect lost on losing health state, Resilience - you need to heal yourself, Deja Vu - you have to go to specific gen).
- > Also I think that BHVR should add hard cap to how much each gen could regress and not go for "gen regression events". Make it that each gen can regress 50% max or sth.
Idk, I'm just tired of going against same killers with same perks, and with broken addons. I don't care about "boo hoo, how about weaker killers?!". I don't see weaker killers. I don't see Trapper, Myers, Doctor, Hag, Freddy, Demo or Dredge.
So what do you think?
Comments
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I think gens should be 80 seconds, heals should be 16 seconds, and the times shouldn't move from there outside of base regression. The game should be balanced around those times, not regression and extending those times. There's way too much time spend idle watching paint dry on gens when you factor in all the regression and gen blocking in the game now. 90 seconds+Pain Res+Grim Embrace+PGTW is brutal.
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Killers should be also able to regress gens in some way, but it shouldn't be like that where you can stack 4 gen regression perks with no drawbacks and be able to regress one gen again and again and again.
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The problem with this idea is you’d have to make killers so strong and maps so unsafe to accommodate average chase times of like sub 15 seconds to balance this and keep up with how fast gens would be flying. This wouldn’t be fun for survivors.
The better route to where they have more fun would be making it all longer instead of shorter at base so that we can gut all the regression perks and survivors can have their fun and long chases without it costing the killer the game by indulging in them.
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The problem with this principle is it’s harming most the killer roster because of just a few outlier/stronger killers. This would be like wanting all of the solo queue survivors to get nerfed because the few swf sweat squads are a problem. You see why that’s an issue on principle right?
Unless you also think we should nerf all survivors because of the swf sweat squads.
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"regression meta"? There's never been a time in the game where regression wasn't optimal. It's the crux of the entire game.
They gutted every regression method, killed sloppy butcher and this is what you've got left for game stall. At least it all requires successful chases. It feels like what you want is just for killers to lose, because outside of a handful they all require a level of game stall.
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Not being able to affect the entire main objective of the game obviously doesn't work. This is pie in the sky thinking. It'd require changing nearly every perk and removing some items.
It's also just disregarding the fact that different killers do different stuff with different proficiencies. Nurse can get by without game stall entirely. Legion cannot. Even most mid tier killers need stall as ersatz map pressure.
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I mean, 3-gen feature basically killed most possible slowdown perks. I liked to use Eruption with Nowhere to hide, but why bother now?
Ruin and hex builds overall are just a joke for most killers.It's not really suprising outcome that everyone will use perks that were not affected.
But 3-gen feature doesn't affect normal gameplay, of course not…
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They figured out a long, long time ago that survivors needed some mechanic to prevent them from bringing 4 speed perks available every chase. They implemented exhaustion to prevent exactly that.
Slowdown needs an 'exhaustion' type effect to prevent quad slowdown perks from stacking, but at this point I doubt they'll implement that.
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Survivors are free to bring 4 gen speed / toolbox perks. How is that different?
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Chase perks delay the killers objective, slowdown perks delay the survivors objective. They're basically in the same class.
If you want to talk about perks that speed up each side's objective that's a different category entirely. In which case you're comparing gen speed/toolboxes to killer chase perks, bloodlust, and killer powers or niche perks like monstrous shrine. That's an entirely different discussion.
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I don't really mind limiting number of slowdown perks, I never use more than two, but you would have to buff most of them a lot, because they are simply trash alone. Basically every slowdown perk except pain res and pop.
With their balancing history, that wouldn't end well.
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The choice is really just "do we want sub 10 seconds chase" or "do we want regression or longer gen time", there is no other way because we only have a killer and 4 survivors
Personally I don't mind sub 10 seconds chase games but still
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Chases would need to be so short they're unenjoyable or pallets reduced so much it's just a deadzone. It's not as simple of a solution as you think.
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Or create more objectives to do besides Genators for survivors and more reward incentives for killer to engage in chase and go for hooks instead of kills more (so there will be less tunneling involved)
So far, I prefer gens take longer to help the killer apply pressure and avoid survivors repairing too many gens at once.
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I don't disagree with you.
The problem is that every single time the game has attempted to add secondary objectives the community gives extreme push back and it gets reverted.
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^ This.
People want their cake and to eat it too. It's either nuke the regression and chases have to be insanely fast or we get good chases like now have but have tons of slow down. That's the options.
People won't have fun with chases that short, so slowing the game down is required and the only route we can realistically go, in whatever form that slow down may be.
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Ahh yess... the old "DBD will never be the same, gives us back our infinite God loops, busted survivors items, 7 blink nurses, and the old map with like 44 pallets with strong loops; not to mention back with killer shack had literally two windows instead of one."
People needs to stop with this whole "Me Vs them" mentality as well as being entitled to their one sides. And started asking important questions like what is the most problematic aspect of DBD and what they could do to make it fun and fair for both sides. Can't we all agree SoloQ sucks, SWFS are overpowered, Tunneling sucks but so does being Genrushing to oblivion, when either sides does them at the same time.
I also like the fact that people whom disagree with me on the broken aspect of the game are "perfectly fair and balanced" and that blame us for not understanding how fun it is for them and not for us, killers or Survivor mains.
In my opinion, Fun is subjective and can have many interpretations.
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Pop isn't infinite, it is your reward for hooking a survivor and it doesn't do much to a generator under 60%
What level of slowdown is even acceptable to survivors? Because this is the least slowdown the game has ever had and there are more genrush perks than ever before.6 -
I don't know what are you even talking about with "more genrush perks than ever before", but here ^ are stats that Pop+PR gives ~70% killrate, so these are higher numbers than even BHVR wanted to balance the game.
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You don't know or you don't want to acknowledge? Because for a long time it was just Prove Thyself and Stakeout
That doesn't tell me anything without what killer it was attached to4 -
Ok, there was Prove (remove penalty when working with someone) and Stakeout (great skillcheck from time to time) - btw, was Stakeout even nerfed or sth?
And what now?
What kind of genrush perks are there?
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Deja Vu, Hyperfocus, Overzealous, Fast Track and the new BNP that doesn't deplete the toolbox
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Deja Vu: 6% on selected gens, you have to go to them, it gives little value, saves little above 5 seconds from 90 total.
Hyperfocus: Reliant on skillchecks
Overzealous: Reliant on totems, you have to find one, destroy one and you lose boost on killer hit. This perk got buffed, still not even meta.
Fast Track is laughably bad.
New BNP? You mean Sable perk that have reputation of being killer perk as it gives no value at all and have huge drawbacks? 😂
Last match btw, highly balanced and solo players have any chance to escape while versing this killer with that build.
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- Deja Vu is 6% because you're supposed to stack it with other genrush perks like Prove and Resilience
- "Reliant on skillchecks" Lol, what a caveat
- Overzealous is reliant on Totems because it's for cranking out important generators
- Again, fast track is to be stacked with in a build
- No, I mean the item BNP
I think you're speaking in bad faith at this point because you just brush off so much with such weak reasoning as "reliant on skillchecks"
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I don't see how any of these (except Hyperfocus, with an asterisk, and soooorta the BNP) could be considered genrush unless your definition of a genrush tool is just "something that gives repair speed".
Could you elaborate on what you mean by saying these are genrush tools? I'm not sure I'm understanding your position.
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My definition of genrush is rushing generators
I'm not complaining about it, I'm not proposing balance decisions for it, I'm naming examples of things you would use if your role in the group is the generator jockey.3 -
Literally the only regression perks worth bringing anymore are Pop and Pain Res, DMS & Grim are merely synergy.
The "Anti-3-gen" system basically killed every other regression perks (and non-regression kick perks like Surveillance and Trail at the same time) by limiting the number of uses. Perks like Surge and Eruption just delete regression events for very little payoff.
Pop, DMS, Grim and Pain Res also encourage the Killer to chase & hook Survivors to even get any value in the first place, Pain Res has 4 uses max.
Gen regression has never been so weak and stale since the only viable slowdown perks after a certain threshold of experience are Pop and Pain Res (DMS was already a common combo before) and new Grim Embrace. There's a reason why Surge was very common before but not anymore.
Add to that that STBFL and Sloppy were gutted and it's just more reason to pick perks that offer big gen slowdown over chase perks.
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But you can't rush generators with these?
You can't rush generators if you're finding and cleansing/booning totems, you're inherently not sticking on generators to do them as fast as possible if you're leaving those gens for something else. Same for Fast Track, you can't rely on that to rush generators because it requires you to basically be losing to gain serious progress from it.
In order to rush the generators as fast as possible, you probably won't be using direct gen-speed perks, those are for small boosts that help out without genrushing. You'd be looking at like, toolbox plus BTL/Streetwise or toolbox plus Hyperfocus and Stakeout.
You can use some of these tools like Deja Vu and BNPs while genrushing, but you'd still need the genrush tools to pair them with for them to count.
It's also somewhat relevant that half of these aren't very good considering they're being contrasted against killer slowdown. Frankly, viable slowdown tools are (probably, without going and double checking) more numerous than viable repair-speed tools, it's just that the viable repair-speed tools include broken stuff like toolboxes so the average is skewed.
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So I have to pair this perks with other perks, and I wouldn't be able to equip chase perk, stealth perks, exhaustion perks and basically anything.
Especially on Billy with lethal it looks fun
Because with distorion these are literally 2 swings with chainsaw and you are down. And there goes my "genrush perk value".
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Yes, you have to stack more perks to build gen jockey on survivor because there are 4 of you. If there was a catch-all genrush perk then it would be a mandatory inclusion in the meta build and low-tier killers would plummet in viability. Despite what your post would have us believe, slowdown is weak right now.
Overzealous is a simple tool for beating out the 3-genning trapper. If you found a hex then it becomes the best generator perk.
I didn't even think of the toolbox-related perks, but those are more for the list. Most 4-mans I encounter have at least 1 guy with Prove Thyself + Deja Vu + BNP/Commodius toolbox0 -
Overzealous is great, I run Overzealous myself pretty frequently when I play survivor. It's not a genrush tool, though, because it requires not prioritising generators and rushing their completion as quick as you can.
As to that one guy, sure, I don't doubt it. However, the genrush tools that survivor is using are the Commodious and arguably the BNP. Prove Thyself is literally an anti-genrush tool (and also sucks), and Deja Vu is just a little extra speed to add on top of the genrush tools.
Look at it this way. Split this dude's build in half, right.
Half one, he has BNP and a Commodious. It's fair to say this guy is probably genrushing, depending on how he plays. It'd be a mild version of genrushing with just those two tools, but the core is there so it is still what he's doing.
Half two, he has PT and DV. There's no way this guy is genrushing. He can't be, one of his perks requires grouping up so he's not genrushing by default, and the other has a fairly small number so even if there's no travel time to use it, he's hardly rushing through that generator super fast.
The toolbox related perks aren't "more for the list", they ARE the list. Any genrushing tool requires a toolbox to function because nothing else comes close to that level of speed and efficiency. The very second that toolboxes are nerfed (which is inevitable, even if it takes a long time), genrushing as we know it just ceases to be, the ceiling goes down so dramatically that whatever we call 'genrushing' afterwards isn't going to be recognisable as what it is now.
As an aside, slowdown isn't weak right now. You just can't rely on it to make up for poor macro play and long chases for the most part, which I think is pretty fair.
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If you found a hex then it becomes the best generator perk.
Players have different opinions about that, even after 2 buffs.
Overzealous is a simple tool for beating out the 3-genning trapper.
- Does anybody even see traper these days? For me it's Wesker/Billy/Blight back to back with each other /s
- No it is not, you have to find a totem (waste time), break it (waste time), go to said 3-gen (waste time) and do gen for 81,8 seconds instead of 90. If you got hit you lose perk value and have to find another totem, break it and go to said 3-gen again.
It's really not that strong, very situational and very easily can lost its perk value.
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It's a 3-gen breaker in the same way that built to last is a 3-gen breaker. They have an activation requirement like that because it's not meant to be up all game. The perks that are up all game have small bonuses that need to be stacked.
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How can 3-gen breaker lost all its value when killer simply hits you? Whole point of 3-gen is patrolling gen and hitting survivors.
I run Overzealous for builds where I'm stealthy, but it's nowhere near genrush (as I can't pair it with anything - if killer is near deja vu gen then I don't go there - I can very easily lost value) and in a lot of games I don't even try to do anything because my gen got PR (-25%) into POP (-5% + -30% of what's left) into another PR (-15%).
And I got ~8 seconds less for doing gen. And killer could take it away by simply hitting me.
This perk is nowhere near Gen Regression meta and its usage shows it clearly.
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Overzealous is a decent perk, but the only people who run it are cheaters trying to cover up what they're doing
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