Why don't killers have a built-in 2nd chance to kill?

Soren

... if they completely fail, while survivors have a built-in 2nd chance to escape even if they completely fail (hatch)?

Occured to me while looking at one of my recent records. All generators repaired within 4 minutes. I did kill someone, but it was because only 1 survivor cared about unhooking (and while I was really near, to make me busy) - the 2 others just sit on gens for the whole game and didn't care about anything at all.

While we're at it: where's my 4% chance upon hooking that someone skips a hook stage?

It's not that much about the balance, I just wonder why killers don't have any gimmick like these. A built-in permanent Blood Warden for the last survivor alive would be as fair as the idea of the hatch.

Shif

There should be a lever in the basement that allows you to instantly hook a survivor with 4% base chance, increasing as the game goes on and more survivos die (same as their luck, it's not 4% for the whole game).

We could also add some "luck" offerings for that if a killer wants that last 4th kill so badly, basing on his luck.

Shif

However, if we'd like to be serious, it's better to remove as much RNG as possible from the game, and I'd like to see removal of attempting rather than adding the lever.

RSB

@Soren said:
... if they completely fail, while survivors have a built-in 2nd chance to escape even if they completely fail (hatch)?

Occured to me while looking at one of my recent records. All generators repaired within 4 minutes. I did kill someone, but it was because only 1 survivor cared about unhooking (and while I was really near, to make me busy) - the 2 others just sit on gens for the whole game and didn't care about anything at all.

While we're at it: where's my 4% chance upon hooking that someone skips a hook stage?

It's not that much about the balance, I just wonder why killers don't have any gimmick like these. A built-in permanent Blood Warden for the last survivor alive would be as fair as the idea of the hatch.

Because our sweet snowflakes need it more.

Soren

@Shif said:
However, if we'd like to be serious, it's better to remove as much RNG as possible from the game, and I'd like to see removal of attempting rather than adding the lever.

These mechanics don't bother me in a "Survivors vs AI" scenario, however, it's a "Survivors vs Killer" game. We're all used to them, but in all logic: these shouldn't exist in the first place. I completely failed this game (and many others) within 4 minutes, and there wasn't that much things I was able to do to invert the outcome. When you're survivor, there's always a tiny chance (with several mechanics) to win even if you're in the failing side.

I honestly don't know what to do. I like the idea of the hatch (even though I would like to be opened only if you bring a key, to balance items between themselves), but in the other hand, I can't help but think about the broken logic of this.

Jack11803

I know killers needs buff, and so and so and etc. But gameplay mechanics like that are made and meant for a BALANCED GAME. In any asymmetrical game, where the number team DOESNT EVEN WORK TOGETHER (this is said by devs themselves. Survivors aren’t a team, they just have a common goal.) They a thrown a bone if they are the last one. That’s it, that’s the reason, it’s the philosophy of the game.

That’s not even mentioning the whole final girl thing the devs were going for. Also, hatch is an easy escape, not free. Hooking someone for free or based on luck is stupid. IF they implemented a killer hatch thing, it’d just make survivors weaker. NOED is basically what the killer function would be if they were ever meant to get one. They weren’t. They are the power role. Remember! Core mechanics of the game are supposed to be okay if the game is balanced. So saying to me “but the game isn’t balanced” is a bad idea, just like giving killers a hatch and then abruptly removing it after balance is achieved.

It also fits the lore. Entity gives the survivor the higher chance of escape, to feed on hope.

Runiver

Because survivors are 4, and the killer is 1. Which immediatly gives them more rights.

Science_Guy

"Survivors" don't get a second chance.

The killer can always kill as long as the match is still going.
The survivor too always needs to have some possibility of surviving as long as the match is still going. Otherwise, there isn't a game.

Jack11803

@SaltyKiller said:

@Science_Guy said:
"Survivors" don't get a second chance.

The killer can always kill as long as the match is still going.
The survivor too always needs to have some possibility of surviving as long as the match is still going. Otherwise, there isn't a game.

I’m sorry, but a bunch of numbers and letters copied and pasted doesn’t tell me much...

VESSEL

@Science_Guy

The Killer can always kill BAD SURVIVORS as long as the game goes
The Killer can always be LOOPED by ABOVE AVERAGE survivors as long as the game goes

The last line is only not viable for the best nurses (and maybe the best clowns when people get more experienced)

Science_Guy

@SaltyKiller said:

@Science_Guy said:
"Survivors" don't get a second chance.

The killer can always kill as long as the match is still going.
The survivor too always needs to have some possibility of surviving as long as the match is still going. Otherwise, there isn't a game.

Completely, in fact.
Calling the hatch 'a second chance' makes as much sense as calling the exit gates a second chance for killers (i.e. none). Killers don't lose just because survivors did 5 gens, ONE survivor (not Survivors) doesn't lose solely because the other three did.

@MineAntoiya said:

@Science_Guy

The Killer can always kill BAD SURVIVORS as long as the game goes
The Killer can always be LOOPED by ABOVE AVERAGE survivors as long as the game goes

The last line is only not viable for the best nurses (and maybe the best clowns when people get more experienced)

Well, the question of skill and the viability of certain killers does change things, it's true. But I'd also say every team has a weak link and most of the time, either side has the means to either get a kill or escape.

Science_Guy

I had a longer response, but apparently it was swallowed up for moderation. Never seen that happen before. If it shows up at some point, great. But I will say, if the best response you've got is to fall back on things no one was taking about, you've already lost.

Science_Guy

@SaltyKiller said:

@Science_Guy said:
"Survivors" don't get a second chance.

The killer can always kill as long as the match is still going.
The survivor too always needs to have some possibility of surviving as long as the match is still going. Otherwise, there isn't a game.

Once again, your opinion is wrong sir. Survivors have plenty of 2nd chances. Hell, they even get 3rd, 4th and even 5th chances. I even listed off examples. But it seems like your rebuttal is just to stick your fingers in your ears and scream "LALALALALALA I CAN'T HEAR YOU LALALALALA!"

This is sad to watch. Someone so blinded by salt it's affecting their ability to read.

Let me spell it out for you. I said "Survivors don't get a second chance" in reference to the fact the hatch doesn't give SURVIVORS (as in, the plural) another chance, it only helps one sole person. I wasn't giving commentary about the validity of DS/Adrenaline/any other of the nonsense you mentioned, which should have been obvious, because NO ONE WAS TALKING ABOUT ANY OF THAT.

But by all means, go on, scream at the world about the suffering that is your life as a poor killer against those nasty survivors. If it's therapeutic for you to vent the same tired points over and over, who am I to judge?

Sarief

Because game is designed to be played in solo queue

but then we have SWF

Good luck trying to explain me why we need SWF in ranked or at all when we have KYF

Jack11803

@SaltyKiller said:

@Science_Guy said:
"Survivors" don't get a second chance.

The killer can always kill as long as the match is still going.
The survivor too always needs to have some possibility of surviving as long as the match is still going. Otherwise, there isn't a game.

Once again, your opinion is wrong sir. Survivors have plenty of 2nd chances. Hell, they even get 3rd, 4th and even 5th chances. I even listed off examples. But it seems like your rebuttal is just to stick your fingers in your ears and scream "LALALALALALA I CAN'T HEAR YOU LALALALALA!"

Those perks are second chances, but the hatch isn’t. That what he was talking about you illiterate, daft fool

mintchapstick

@Science_Guy said:
I had a longer response, but apparently it was swallowed up for moderation. Never seen that happen before. If it shows up at some point, great. But I will say, if the best response you've got is to fall back on things no one was taking about, you've already lost.

That happened to me once. I never saw it again.

only1biggs

Salty killer at it again. "your opinion is wrong", even though one wasn't given. Using terms like, "mental gymnastics" and not fully grasping the term and performing them him/herself.

Delicious.

Abyssionknight

Improbable escapes from the Killer when you're captured is part of the horror genre. Escaping from the hook, or using the hatch, represents those frantic escapes from a seemingly hopeless situation. This is supposed to be a horror themed game after all, so I think it makes sense for such a mechanic to exist for survivors.

Also keep in mind that the 4% chance to kobe from the hook, comes with a 96% chance that you'll not only cut your time on the hook at least in half, but that your next time hooks is guaranteed to kill you. So I think that's a pretty good deal for the killer, considering using your time efficiently is crucial against gen rushing survivors.

They're also actively working on hatch changes, so I don't see the need for an end game rng chance for the killer. Once you're able to close the hatch it'll already be a match stacked in your favour.

Sarief

@Abyssionknight said:
Also keep in mind that the 4% chance to kobe from the hook, comes with a 96% chance that you'll not only cut your time on the hook at least in half

Do I need to teach you math?
4% base chance * 3 times = 11.5% escape from hook. Which means 88.5% chance of failing.
4% base chance * 6 times (slippery meat) = 21.7%. And 81.3% chance to fail.

11% is not a small number by any means. 21.7% is big.
Add to that fact, that you still have struggling phase of the hook.

Survivors should really learn the math first before playing the game

Jack11803

@Sarief said:

@Abyssionknight said:
Also keep in mind that the 4% chance to kobe from the hook, comes with a 96% chance that you'll not only cut your time on the hook at least in half

Do I need to teach you math?
4% base chance * 3 times = 11.5% escape from hook. Which means 88.5% chance of failing.
4% base chance * 6 times (slippery meat) = 21.7%. And 81.3% chance to fail.

11% is not a small number by any means. 21.7% is big.
Add to that fact, that you still have struggling phase of the hook.

Survivors should really learn the math first before playing the game

So over the course of ten games, you basically ######### 9 times. The tenth time, you Kobe, and then what? You’re off the hook, any teammate could’ve done I’d the killer wasn’t camping, if they are camping you are hooked again. So wouldn’t even be that strong if it was a perk to literally just flat out Kobe. It’s probably what most killers wish d-strike was. A solo escape, but the damage has already been done.

Sarief

@Jack11803 said:
So over the course of ten games, you basically [BAD WORD] 9 times. The tenth time, you Kobe, and then what? You’re off the hook, any teammate could’ve done I’d the killer wasn’t camping, if they are camping you are hooked again. So wouldn’t even be that strong if it was a perk to literally just flat out Kobe. It’s probably what most killers wish d-strike was. A solo escape, but the damage has already been done.

1) freddy basically screwed if there is perk like that.
2) free escape with adrenaline
3) no way to fail save at last second, meaning it will ALWAYS be used, if not saved by teammates. Or simply if killer goes away.
4) more reasons to camp AND not leave the hook, even if you don't see anyone around. Especially with SC.

The only way it would be ok, if it left you not injured but on Borrowed Time health, that will expire in 25 seconds, in my opinion. But even then OP

Jack11803

@Sarief said:

@Jack11803 said:
So over the course of ten games, you basically [BAD WORD] 9 times. The tenth time, you Kobe, and then what? You’re off the hook, any teammate could’ve done I’d the killer wasn’t camping, if they are camping you are hooked again. So wouldn’t even be that strong if it was a perk to literally just flat out Kobe. It’s probably what most killers wish d-strike was. A solo escape, but the damage has already been done.

1) freddy basically screwed if there is perk like that.
2) free escape with adrenaline
3) no way to fail save at last second, meaning it will ALWAYS be used, if not saved by teammates. Or simply if killer goes away.
4) more reasons to camp AND not leave the hook, even if you don't see anyone around. Especially with SC.

The only way it would be ok, if it left you not injured but on Borrowed Time health, that will expire in 25 seconds, in my opinion. But even then OP

1) Buff Freddy. 2) They were able to live to the gates, AND it’s not free, that’s only if they are hooked next to gates, and they are open,. Without a teammate unhooking them next to it, in that case it wouldn’t even matter what gets them off the hook. At least one wastes a meta slot. 3) Yeah, that’s the perk. 4) If they jump off before struggle, it’ll waste even more time for the camper. Also, campers will almost always camp anyway.

Sarief

@Jack11803 said:
1) Buff Freddy. 2) They were able to live to the gates, AND it’s not free, that’s only if they are hooked next to gates, and they are open,. Without a teammate unhooking them next to it, in that case it wouldn’t even matter what gets them off the hook. At least one wastes a meta slot. 3) Yeah, that’s the perk. 4) If they jump off before struggle, it’ll waste even more time for the camper. Also, campers will almost always camp anyway.

1) nice try
2) if there is no noed it's almost guaranteed to reach exit gates. Time it takes to chase someone down is so big that you can literally reach the other side of the map twice. half the map if you run in str8 line
3) another OP perk for survivors that encourages camping?
4) most killers don't know what else to do. If they're sure they won't find anyone they won't leave. If they have reason to leave - they will. In this case they won't leave even if they have semi-applicable reason.

Sleepy

@Jack11803
Survivors aren’t a team, they just have a common goal.

Kind of ironic considering SWF exists, devs contradicting themselves. Wouldn't expect anything less.

Jack11803

@Sleepy said:

@Jack11803
Survivors aren’t a team, they just have a common goal.

Kind of ironic considering SWF exists, devs contradicting themselves. Wouldn't expect anything less.

Yup.

Jack11803

@Sarief said:

@Jack11803 said:
1) Buff Freddy. 2) They were able to live to the gates, AND it’s not free, that’s only if they are hooked next to gates, and they are open,. Without a teammate unhooking them next to it, in that case it wouldn’t even matter what gets them off the hook. At least one wastes a meta slot. 3) Yeah, that’s the perk. 4) If they jump off before struggle, it’ll waste even more time for the camper. Also, campers will almost always camp anyway.

1) nice try
2) if there is no noed it's almost guaranteed to reach exit gates. Time it takes to chase someone down is so big that you can literally reach the other side of the map twice. half the map if you run in str8 line
3) another OP perk for survivors that encourages camping?
4) most killers don't know what else to do. If they're sure they won't find anyone they won't leave. If they have reason to leave - they will. In this case they won't leave even if they have semi-applicable reason.

I replied to this, gonna have to wait an eternity for moderation though. RIP

Sarief

@Jack11803 said:
I replied to this, gonna have to wait an eternity for moderation though.

I've seen notification. Well, have faith

Master

@Soren said:
... if they completely fail, while survivors have a built-in 2nd chance to escape even if they completely fail (hatch)?

Occured to me while looking at one of my recent records. All generators repaired within 4 minutes. I did kill someone, but it was because only 1 survivor cared about unhooking (and while I was really near, to make me busy) - the 2 others just sit on gens for the whole game and didn't care about anything at all.

While we're at it: where's my 4% chance upon hooking that someone skips a hook stage?

It's not that much about the balance, I just wonder why killers don't have any gimmick like these. A built-in permanent Blood Warden for the last survivor alive would be as fair as the idea of the hatch.

Because that would be unfair for the survivors

Jack11803

@Master said:

@Soren said:
... if they completely fail, while survivors have a built-in 2nd chance to escape even if they completely fail (hatch)?

Occured to me while looking at one of my recent records. All generators repaired within 4 minutes. I did kill someone, but it was because only 1 survivor cared about unhooking (and while I was really near, to make me busy) - the 2 others just sit on gens for the whole game and didn't care about anything at all.

While we're at it: where's my 4% chance upon hooking that someone skips a hook stage?

It's not that much about the balance, I just wonder why killers don't have any gimmick like these. A built-in permanent Blood Warden for the last survivor alive would be as fair as the idea of the hatch.

Because that would be unfair for the survivors

Well, hatch is definitely not free. Killer alternative wouldn’t be a hook, it’s be more like NOED. Easier, not already done for you.