So what perks do survivors complain about now?
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Lmao. That's like saying Knight is 4 killers because he has 3 Guards and himself. Completely flawed logic.
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Since a lot of the killers have instadown abilities or their counterplay is mostly based on pre running.
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So what perk do killers complain about now?
Adrenaline nerfed
DS nerfed
background nerfed
Buckle up nerfed
We can do the same in the other way, but it resolve nothing, except, again, making a "Killer VS Survivor"2 -
Such as? I'm fairly sure every meta since the original Hex Ruin has been gen regression, and killers complained about every nerf. The metas were:
But these metas weren't as aggressively ingrained as PainRes/Pop, and killers weren't crutching on them as hard as this.
The Clown winstreak was performed with Redhead's Pinkie Finger, which completely changes the killer to an instant down killer. The streak would have been far less without it.
That's still Clown though. That doesn't change much. And you'd have to do this for all the winstreaks that people have been running on a wide variety of killers. Including, actually, Onryo specifically, who has a 409 winstreak logged. Even Freddy's got a 50 from Otzdarva.
The point is that these killers are called 'weak', yet are still able to produce results that, in any other PvP setting, would be considered 'broken beyond belief'. Clearly some people are able to play these killers to phenomenal result, but because other individuals aren't good with them, any statistic that doesn't match their personal experience with said killer is considered 'clearly invalid'.
No matter how many winstreaks show up, no matter what way the statistics go, there's always personal anecdata that is being elevated above anything observable, always to the same conclusion: Killers UP.
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Weave Attunement and Franklin's, apparently.
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Killers complained about those perks but definitely far less compared Pain Res and Pop. Most survivors complained about Pain Res and Pop while some killers complained about BG Player and Buckle Up. The scale of the complaints aren't the same.
But these metas weren't as aggressively ingrained as PainRes/Pop, and killers weren't crutching on them as hard as this.
You actually have 0 idea what you are talking about. Original Hex Ruin was by far the most ingrained meta and practically every killer needed to run it because every other perk was terrible and gen rushing was far stronger (gen rushing is much weaker now due to nerfs). I can't find the original source but there were stats showing that Hex Ruin was used by 80% of killers, far more than Pain Res (40%).
I believe it's the complete opposite of what you said. In terms of meta popularity and regression perk dependency, I would rank them in the same order I listed them:
- Hex Ruin
- Hex Ruin + Undying + Tinkerer
- Eruption + CoB + Overcharge
- Pain Res + DMS
- Pain Res + Pop
The reason for this is that in 2019 almost every perk was terrible and gen rushing was far stronger. As the years progressed, more useful perks were added and gen rushing got nerfed, making it less important to run gen regression perks.
That's still Clown though. That doesn't change much. And you'd have to do this for all the winstreaks that people have been running on a wide variety of killers. Including, actually, Onryo specifically, who has a 409 winstreak logged. Even Freddy's got a 50 from Otzdarva.
The point is that these killers are called 'weak', yet are still able to produce results that, in any other PvP setting, would be considered 'broken beyond belief'. Clearly some people are able to play these killers to phenomenal result, but because other individuals aren't good with them, any statistic that doesn't match their personal experience with said killer is considered 'clearly invalid'.
No matter how many winstreaks show up, no matter what way the statistics go, there's always personal anecdata that is being elevated above anything observable, always to the same conclusion: Killers UP.
When people call a killer weak, they are talking about the killer overall. They aren't talking about that one specific build required to make the killer strong, especially if an Iri addon is required. Sadako is another good example. She was widely considered as one of the worst killers in her original version, but people acknowledged that her Condemn build (Tape + Ring Drawing) made her strong. For example, Otz rated her as the 3rd worst killer but acknowledged her Tape addon made her far stronger.
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Didn't follow the (somewhat derailed?) convo, so this is in response to op:
Personally, I always complain about knockout. It's (just like Boil Over, for the us vs them crowd) an obnoxious perk. Not strong, just annoying as frigg.
Perks aside I much rather complain about tunneling. There is more than one factor to it (from maps to low mobility killers to abilities that encourage it etc. pp.) but one factor that definitely isn't among the factors that lead to more tunneling is gen regression not being strong enough. Idk if you were here during the months and months of that time of Eruption the meta that accompanied it but just in case you weren't: gen stalling perks were at their absolute strongest then … and so was tunneling. Now, saying that strong gen stalling perks directly lead to more tunneling would also be erroneous. But the thing is: there is a number of people who want the easiest game possible and stacking gen stalling combined with tunneling is as guaranteed a win as it can possibly be in this game and in those cases it is true: the stronger gen stalling the stronger they are. And others might learn a thing or two from them (as it did happen during that Eruption time; after that time it seemed the "make it 3v1 asap" got a lot more prevalent - at least from my pov).
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Those are?
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heck yeah dude gotta get my daily dose of Us vs Them, complaining that [other side] are all a bunch of whiners
like come on, this discussion is in no way productive and just serves to split the player base. i have half a mind to quit the game because so many people on social media are like this for both roles, more obsessed with being upset that the other side has opinions than actually enjoying gameplay
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Original Hex Ruin was by far the most ingrained meta and practically every killer needed to run it because every other perk was terrible and gen rushing was far stronger
Firstly, that's not the Ruin I am talking about. I wasn't there for that meta. I joined around the release of the Blight, shortly after DS got its conspic action nerf, and predicting the killer's perk load-out always felt like a shot in the dark. The only thing you could reasonably estimate is that if the killer was playing terribly, there would be a NOED.
Secondly, there's a marked difference between a meta coming into existence because alternatives are terrible, and a meta coming into existence in spite of other options.
It's why Windows of Opportunity is not a problematic high pick rate, but PainRes/Pop is.
As the years progressed, more useful perks were added and gen rushing got nerfed, making it less important to run gen regression perks.
But at some point, despite killers getting more and stronger alternatives, the trend has reversed somehow and now gen regression perks are somehow 'more important than ever'. That's the issue.
Ruin getting a high pickrate among a wasteland of useless perks is different from PainRes/Pop dominating a meta that has a lot of strong alternatives.
It's like Helldivers 2 nerfs, versus Warframe nerfs.
When people call a killer weak, they are talking about the killer overall. They aren't talking about that one specific build required to make the killer strong, especially if an Iri addon is required. Sadako is another good example. She was widely considered as one of the worst killers in her original version, but people acknowledged that her Condemn build (Tape + Ring Drawing) made her strong. For example, Otz rated her as the 3rd worst killer but acknowledged her Tape addon made her far stronger.
That really doesn't make much of a difference in regards to how strong a killer is. I'm fine with moving the discussion towards the awkward place that add-ons and items produce for the game's balance, but clearly, the killers aren't weak if they're able to string together massive win-chains.
And even then, the original point was that the statistics shown were allegedly unreliable because the killers were supposed to be weaker than their kill/winrates would indicate, but if those kill/winrates are perfectly attainable, how are the statistics unreliable?
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No idea about others, but my personal hate perk is 'Nowhere to Hide.'
I dislike that hiding is next to impossible in a lot of areas with a generator because of this perk, and the only possible counter to it is distortion (which I don't like to run). So I'm forced to abandon my stealth play-style, run a perk I dislike every game, or eat the fact that I am going to be caught out of position for free.
You might argue I should go in a locker or run away if I know the killer has it and is coming; but that's not possible in a lot of cases. Picture rooms in the Game, grooves on Disturbed Ward, corner gens on every map, etc. You have no room to run away because the direction opposite of the killer is blocked. You also don't always have lockers, but even if you do, the killer knows someone was on the generator, can scan the area with the perk, and check the locker with relatively high confidence you're in there.
The lack of reactive counter-play to this perk as a stealth player annoys me. I either bite the bullet and run a perk I dislike blindly in every build, or accept the chase/free down.
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aura reading after another nerf to gen regression because people still use regression as its required
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Just because you aren't good with those killers doesn't mean no one else is, people like you ruin this game, you think just because YOU get washed it means survivors need a nerf, well we're all sorry you're not the next streamer going on a 500 win streak with trapper, I've been here for entirety of this games life cycle playing both roles don't sit here and try to act like it's unbearable for everyone just because you're struggling without slowdowns
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Who did hurt you today?
I wonder which part make you think that I'm bad with any killer to begin with. Stop jumping on the gun the moment you see something that contradicts with your opinion.
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Maybe it was the fact that in this entire thread you're putting off the typical killer is helpless plea, I'm sick of seeing it people wanna cry that survivors want stuff nerfed but these new age killer mains cry harder than anyone else when killer really isn't in a bad place and hasn't been for quite some time. I'm tired of top tier killers becoming boring to play due to bad players complaining to the devs, people don't want a skilled game apparently we want a braindead w and m1 simulator with no thought needed to win a chase just shut your brain off and let the slobber drip down your face while you mindlessly bloodlust everything because those damn survivors need a nerf
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I don't put anything here. Calm down.
If you want to talk about nerfs, left talk about recent Vecna nerf. A killer who was released recently receives a nerf already. So my question here is it because killer was that good and had no counter or because killer required a bit extra effort to play against so it was simply easier to nerf him? I can't recall a single survivor or survivor perk being nerfed so quickly. As for Vecna's perks - he still has the worst perk set, wanna bet when his perks will get addressed? I bet not anytime soon.
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Firstly, that's not the Ruin I am talking about. I wasn't there for that meta. I joined around the release of the Blight, shortly after DS got its conspic action nerf, and predicting the killer's perk load-out always felt like a shot in the dark. The only thing you could reasonably estimate is that if the killer was playing terribly, there would be a NOED.
Regardless, Pain Res is still dwarfed by the usage rate of the original Hex Ruin.
Secondly, there's a marked difference between a meta coming into existence because alternatives are terrible, and a meta coming into existence in spite of other options.
Ruin getting a high pickrate among a wasteland of useless perks is different from PainRes/Pop dominating a meta that has a lot of strong alternatives.
I said that regression perks were important because almost every perk was terrible and gen rushing was strong. It wasn't purely because every other perk was terrible. The gen rushing that was possible back then isn't remotely close to now. For example:
- gen times were 80 seconds
- Toolboxes were far stronger
- Brand New Part was op
- Prove Thyself was 50% stronger
That's only the gen rushing side of things. Killers were also drastically weaker due to things such as Dead Hard for distance, unbalanced maps (e.g. old Haddonfield and Ormond), and much stronger Med Kits. This meant that chases lasted much longer, allowing survivors to rush gens uninterupted. Regression perks were imperative in the past because the game was unplayable without them. Most perks being terrible was only a small part of why killers ran regression perks.
It's why Windows of Opportunity is not a problematic high pick rate, but PainRes/Pop is.
I think WOO is a problem, but I'm not going to discuss it here. I've already made threads about it in the past.
But at some point, despite killers getting more and stronger alternatives, the trend has reversed somehow and now gen regression perks are somehow 'more important than ever'. That's the issue.
Idk why people say regression perks are more important than ever. They're just wrong. Regression perks are still important depending on the killer you're playing. Mid to low tier killers still need it. High tier killers don't.
That really doesn't make much of a difference in regards to how strong a killer is. I'm fine with moving the discussion towards the awkward place that add-ons and items produce for the game's balance, but clearly, the killers aren't weak if they're able to string together massive win-chains.
That's just your opinion. I believe most people judge a killer based on their overall strength rather than a niche build, which is more realistic considering survivors face killers running various builds rather than always the same build.
Also if you stomped 999 Clowns but lose to ProVengence on Clown once, is Clown strong? That's essentially what you're saying because the people that get these massive win streaks are <0.1% of players.
Also, there's people with 50+ win streaks on every killer. By your logic, no killer ever needed a buff because someone managed to get a high win streak on them. If you think that's that case, you're in the minority.
And even then, the original point was that the statistics shown were allegedly unreliable because the killers were supposed to be weaker than their kill/winrates would indicate, but if those kill/winrates are perfectly attainable, how are the statistics unreliable?
I'm not going to argue about this since it wasn't my argument, but seeing both the pick rate and kill rate is important because there is bias due to people mainly playing the killers they are good at.
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I'm seeing complaints about Knockout, Aura reading, and even certain Killer powers now too.
I think some people just won't be happy until the game is heavily tilted in their favor, and that is true of both sides.
Meanwhile we have a bunch of Survivor perks that are okay but could use some love, and Killers like Doctor, Singularity, and Ghostface all struggling because the meta they needed got nerfed and they STILL have only gotten minor QoL tweaks. Never the actual changes these things need, only minor changes and then these perks and Killers get ignored.
And what about reworks to some Killer perks to make them viable? Dying Light is abysmal, all of Wraith's perks are trash except MAYBE Shadowborne, Huntress doesn't have a good perk in her kit, nothing is ever going to make most people run Dark Arrogance or Rapid Brutality. Perks like these could be helped, the fixes to Crowd Control and Coup De Grace made THEM viable if niche. Why is it there is just one Killer meta, slowdown? Well… that's because there's nothing else useful across the board to replace it.
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