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Ok, some people just go to too much effort for the 4k
Gonna preface this saying I play both killer and survivor both. Playing a 2 stack against Trapper, partner and I are the last 2 and both on death hook, my partner goes down, I'm running Left Behind, so the plan is hatch. They not only leave my partner down trying to sniff me out, but go back, set a trap, pick my partner up, and internationally step in it so they get free. Tracks me down, death hook, and then immediately back to my partner for the same thing. Again, we were both on death hook, it wasn't a case of showing mercy to my partner. Are some of y'all really THAT hell bent on getting 4K that you will go THAT FAR out of your way for it? Even when I play killer I don't go to that much effort just to get the 4th.
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I rather people go for 4Ks since it more accurately reflects Killrates, so hopefully BHVR can balance the game better (keyword: "hopefully").
Also I do understand that it is lame sometimes, but Ive come up with a strategy that is really good at countering this strategy. You see, if the Killer wants to waste my time (slugging for the 4K, bleeding me out, etc.), I just open up Bloons Tower Defense 6 and work on progressing through the Monkey Knowledge skill tree, this way I dont lose out on time and optimize my playtime.
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I get checking the immediate area anticipating a flashlight save or trying to cover for Unbreakable; I'll do the same thing. But to go to the effort of setting the trap, picking up my partner and internationally stepping in it, instead of just going ahead and hooking them for no reason other than trying make absolutely certain you're getting 4k instead of 3 is ridiculous and asinine. *edited for spelling and grammar.
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That's the way she goes boys. Sometimes she goes, sometimes she doesn't, cause that's the #########' way she goes.
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Let them get the 4k so they complained about losing to stronger survivors.
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Kill rates will never be accurate with how often survivors give up on hook. That’s why skully has a 70% kill rate
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I dont encourage giving up on hook?
I think everyone should try to keep Killrates more accurate, even if I know that it would be impossible to do so, Ill still do my best to encourage it from both sides.
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Just because you don't put in the effort to get 4 kills doesn't mean that others shouldn't. In Friday the 13th, when I let a counselor escape, and there's 7-8 of them, I still felt bad. So getting all 4 in this game is more realistic, and should be possible if you're skilled enough and willing to put in the work. It's why nobody likes hatch giving them the 3k by default, because there's no skill in it.
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This is true.
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If someone complained then it their fault for boosting themselves too far. You're essentially asking for sweaty players like yourself.
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You're basically complaining that the killer tried to win. Which is the point of a game and this one is no exception.
Besides that, this is a hatch problem.
Survivors hide indefinitely until the other dies for hatch.
Killer slugs indefinitely until the other is found or the first bleeds out because of hatch.
It sucks on both sides.
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Considering that most survivors go for hatches and sometime even intentionally go for bleedout just to waste killer's time, yes, people absolutely want to win most
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I never said you did lol, just telling you that it’s not gonna be accurate not matter what.
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It really doesn't.
The killer in this situation isn't trying to win, they're trying to make you lose. They already secured the 3K, they already won.
The only one this sucks for is the survivor.
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But bleedouts and hatches are draw states, aren't they? Neither is a "win" in MMR standards, unless I'm working on old info. Tbf I haven't kept up with the officiality of win conditions in a while because it feels super arbitrary and archaic.
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Firellius, I was going to say this too. 3k is a win. Sweating/slugging for 4 is ego.
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It doesn't matter if it's actually an win, the meaning of "win most" here is that, people will and absolutely try to do the things that feels "most victorious" in every scenarios
Bleedout is 100% lose, but people feel little more "victorious" when they managed to hide from killers all the time, thus they try to do that, same for hatches, same for 4k, it's all same
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I see, I was just taking it more literally.
It just feels excessive, I guess. If I kill 3 and one gets away, they can tea bag the gate all they want, I still won lol. If I kill 2 and 2 get away, that's a gg. If I kill 0-1, that's on me haha.
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While that's technically true, the killer is trying to win as much as possible and get as much BP as possible and by all accounts they should be getting a 4K but hatch can rob away a kill. It's similar survivors going back to save someone at endgame even though they have 3 out guaranteed or the last survivor hiding even though they already lost.
The majority of killers would much rather hook someone, then find the last. But since hatch is an unnecessary risk to lose a kill you otherwise would get, they don't. Instead they spend 4 minuets slugging to give themselves as much time possible to find the last survivor. Why would you not? Objectively speaking, there's no reason not to. If you find the survivor great, if you don't well you just end up in the same position as if you hooked the 3rd survivor anyway. It only beneficial to slug in this scenario. You'd be stupid not to if you want to win as much as possible or get as much BP as possible. Which are both things players should be expected to be doing.
For survivor you have to wait 4 minuets on the floor and wait 4 minuets as the one hiding for hatch. They would much rather not do that. But objectively the best situation is to hide and try hatch for similar reasons.
Both sides are in a situation where objectively the best thing to do is waste 4 extra minuets waiting around for an RNG mechanic to either rob a kill or gift an undeserved escape. The survivor on the floor is even worse in this position as they just have to wait 4 minuets just to die anyway. That sucks for both sides as clearly the survivors aren't happy and killers aren't happy with the situation either.
Both sides could just say "whatever" and give up the last kill/escape and move on but they (generally) don't nor should they be expected to. The killer slugs and the survivor hides. So we just end up with mutually ensured boredom.
All this happens why? Because of the hatch. If you personally think that's fine then that's your opinion, but the situation occurs because of the hatch.
As @Neaxolotl said, its a "win most" and "most victorious" situation.
Post edited by MrPenguin on3 -
Sorry I make them lower now I let survivors escape after death hook usually 2 sometimes 3. I could 4K all these games but I want to be nice and I don't need my mmr to be super high well probably it still pretty high as I did 3-4K majority of my games for almost 3 years. Im gold IV now so I probably have to do some 3K:s if I want to reach red grade.
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You are actually wrong here on bp gain you probably lose lot of potential bp from prolonging the match that long always. The shorter the match the more efficient you are on bp gain. Let's just say match last 10 minutes when you don't slug you earn 200 000 bp now when you slug you earn 210 000 bp but match last 15 minutes which earns you more bp in long run?
Actually 3-4 minute match is best I had that kind of match where I had earned 100 000K+ but I decided give survivors second chance so purely from bp gain shortest match is the best and the match took then to end 10 minutes and I only got another 100 000K+. I would been smarter to end it there but im not fan of that short matches.
So that makes slugging in 2vs1 not smart especially when most of the time you get the 4K anyway. But when it comes to adepts, challenges and pips on higher grades then it's smart play because you need it and longer match is not problem. 15 minutes +2 pip is better than 2 × 10 minutes match for +1 pip. But otherwise you just waste your own and everyones time.
Hatch is survivor only comeback mechanic and it's fine if we remove hatch we need to rebalance the entire game. Killers already have many ways to make comeback survivors get only weaker longer the match last and less survivors there are left.
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While this can be eyeroll worthy… you never know if that player has some 4k rift challenge up, if they're adepting, if they're going for an achievement, the works. Yesterday I was going "what the feck is this guy's problem" at a Wraith who brought a mori and was tunneling a Mikaela like his family was being held hostage. Played that match pretty pissed… and in endgame chat, I went 'dude, what did Mikaela do to you' and he apologized and said he had a mori daily.
Sometimes it do be like that. And when it doesn't… well. Always next game.
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Killers in this game are the most tryhard people I have ever come across in online gaming easily. There's no ranked or even a comp scene that's worth a damn Why waste so much time just to say yourself you got a 4k in DBD.
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3k might be officially a win, but it still feels like a loss. Especially when the last survivor looped you for half a game and BM'd you at the end, they will be sure to tbag you at the hatch and say "ez noob killer" in the end-game chat. So yeah, sweating for 4k is worth to avoid this humiliating defeat.
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You're not wrong but I was talking about maximizing BP for that match in particular which is how most people see it afaik. If you're just trying to get BP in general yes it's better to move on to the next match asap, but if you want to get most out of that single match a 4k is more than a 3k.
As for rebalancing the game that might be necessary and I'd be all for it if that means removing hatch. We have EGC already, we could use that instead of hatch to make sure the games end without undermining the match and killers could just get the 3rd kill and the EGC would start. No more slugging necessary.
Survivors don't need a comeback mechanic as far as I'm concerned. They start out strong and if they waste it that's on them. They already start ahead, they don't need something to make sure they are always ahead in some way. Survivors strong early and killers strong late is fine, as opposed to survivor stronger early and survivors getting boosted later to still be strong. Leaving no space for the killer to be strong.
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Here, I see a lot of people say "3k is a win."
In a match, I get a 3k, I go AFK to let the last person get the hatch, and I come back 10 minutes later and the match is still going. I went to find out what the hell once, and found them teabagging on the hatch. After that, whenever I give hatch I just stay AFK because I can do whatever I want anywhere in my house while if the survivor doesn't just leave they're the ones stuck in the match being bored and possibly destroying their poor finger joints.
The "bad winner" behavior doesn't change the way I play, personally, but it's not a surprise killers put so much effort into a 4k when many survivors go out of their way to insult for a 3k. Am I saying all survivors do that? Am I saying you do that? No. But it happens. I see it a lot when I play survivor: I'll be waiting because I want to see the killer's loadout until I finally give up and move on.
Mercy is often not rewarded, but a 4k is rewarded with extra Bloodpoints for no one escaping. If there's no Bloodpoint reward for mercy, and many survivors themselves don't reward mercy by doing something as simple as leaving quickly, then why is there an expectation that killers should be merciful?
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It doesn't happen because of the hatch, it happens because of the unhealthy relationship with the game. The killer is trying to get the 4K, not because it makes any distinction in whether they win or lose (Nor that it matters much for BP at that stage, unless the killer camped/tunnelled/slugged, but if they did that, they clearly don't care about BP), but because they've either set themselves an unreasonable standard, or they really want the last survivor to lose.
Objectively speaking, there's no reason not to.
Except the frustrations you lay out here are plenty reason not to do this. I don't do these hatch stand-offs, I don't slug for the 4K, and none of this is a problem for me. I just hook the third survivor and go looking for the hatch. If I find it first, I close it and go into EGC. If the survivor finds it first, they escape and I win anyway.
The problem with the hatch here is an entirely self-inflicted one. Nothing but you is making it a problem.
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It's not just about the killer, the survivors also hide indefinitely once they're down to 2 because of what? The hatch. You're going to say the killer going for a 4K is responsible for that too?
Frustration is purely emotional and therefore is subjective. So that's not an objective reason not to even if it's understandable. Boredom is also subjective. Most people just find the alternative more appealing as I also pointed out.
Again it's a "win most/most victorious" in most of these cases. You supposed to try and win as much as you can. That is the point of the game, it's not "unhealthy". Unless you just consider PvP games in general unhealthy.
While you are correct in it's a small amount of players, if you do happen to care about BP for that match a 4K is better obviously. If you care about winning as the game defines it a 4K is a better, absolute, stronger win than a 3K also obviously. This is further evident by the MMR system. You don't get a 3K and that's it you can't get anymore MMR points. You get more for a 4K because it's a stronger win.
If you personally have a different self imposed limit of how much "winning " is "winning enough" then that's good for you. But the game design is pretty clear that the thing the killer should be aiming for is to kill all the survivors or get as close to it as they can. So that's what players should be expected to do.
All the reasons to go for a 3K are subjective, main one being to be "nice". It's a PvP game, your opponents are not there to be "nice" to you. Most survivors aren't "nice" in return and many will even be sore winners about it.
If you personally want to play "nice" for whatever reason that's fine, but that's not to be expected of everyone.
There is still no objective reason not to try for the 4K in the current state of the game. Which means having to deny hatch as best you can. Slugging is the best way to go about it. So if the thing we're discussing that players are unhappy with on the survivor side of the gameplay is slugging for the 4K then the gameplay components that's responsible is the hatch. For the simple matter of if the hatch was not there, the killer would not slug (outside of toxicity or no hooks available). That is the threat making slugging the best play. That's the thing making the survivors hide indefinitely.
Idk about you but I'd rather have the killer just hook the 3rd survivor then get their 4K than have to wait 4 minuets staring at the floor just to die anyway because hatch exist. It's a waste of time. Take away hatch and let me get sacrificed and move on please. If we lost to the point the killer got a 4K so be it. We should have played better. I'm already punished by losing I don't need to get punished with time waste on top because the hatch threat is making the best play to stall us for 4 extra minuets.
On the flip I'd rather just get my 4K that I earned and move on, not have to scour every corner of the map to find the 3rd survivor and then fight RNGsus to see if that last kill just gets robbed away or not.
Post edited by MrPenguin on3 -
It's not just about the killer, the survivors also hide indefinitely once they're down to 2 because of what? The hatch. You're going to say the killer going for a 4K is responsible for that too?
Well, yeah. Survivors don't really have a choice. The only way they can close the game out faster is by just surrendering. Except this does make a difference for survivor, which it doesn't for killer. Killer will still get good BP and a win, whether they get that 4th kill or not, but survivor won't.
Again it's a "win most/most victorious" in most of these cases. You supposed to try and win
as much as you can. That is the point of the game, it's not "unhealthy".If you're ruining the game for yourself because you're chasing a 'win a little more' scenario, I am going to call that unhealthy, yes.
morefor a 4K because it's astronger win.Except the MMR ladder isn't even shown, the 4th kill rewards considerably less MMR, and climbing in MMR is only going to give you more difficult matches.
Again, this is a personal obsession getting in the way of your own enjoyment of the game. If killers would truly, as you said, 'much rather hook someone', then do so, rather than obsessing over an invisible value going up.
then the
gameplaycomponents that's responsible is the hatchAlso not true, considering there's also bleedout sluggers that don't care about the hatch. At its core, this problem is caused by the killer player's mentality, not by the hatch. But once again, killers ruin the game, and survivors are being told to foot the bill.
Also, consider the scenario if the hatch was not there. If there's no proper, gameplay way to turn a loss into a victory at that point, the only thing survivors are left with is trying to bore the killer into abandoning the match. Is that better?
Idk about you but I'd rather have the killer just hook the 3rd survivor then get their 4K than have to wait 4 minuets staring at the floor just to die anyway because hatch exist.
Or: We can have killers play the game the intended way. I know that's always been an issue, but we should really stop nerfing survivors because killers break the game.
On the flip I'd rather just get my 4K that I earned
That fourth kill isn't always earned. If you don't have it yet, you haven't earned it yet. If some survivor loops you for half an hour but the rest of their team isn't doing gens, you don't get to say you bested that survivor until you actually manage to kill them.
It's not the hatch that's the problem here. It's what you feel you are entitled to.
You let go of that, and the problem is gone.
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Nope, killers go for 4k precisely because they want to win. 3k might be considered a win by the devs, but it still always feels like a loss, unless the escape is you deliberately giving the hatch to the last survivor. Tbagging at the hatch with following "ez" in the chat would not happen if the killer didn't consider 3k as a loss and the survivor didn't consider hatch escape as a win. So yeah, anything but 4k or 3k with hatch given is a loss for the killer, it's just how the game feels for both sides.
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Hatch existing means that if you wanna get a 4k you need to do stuff like this. I know it's not fun for the survivors but it's the best way to make sure you don't get screwed over by hatch RNG.
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There's no official definition of a win. You may consider a 3k a win but that killer may consider a 4k a win. The killer has every right to try for the 4k as much as the last survivor tries to escape. Both sides are equally at fault for prolonging the match, as both sides can stop at any time.
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There you go: Unhealthy.
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You feel entitled to having the hatch escape. You let go of that and the problem is gone.
Survivors do have a choice, they chose to hide and prolong the game just as much as the killer does. At that point it's not even a 4K, the killer is just trying for a 3K that time and the hatch is already causing problems.
How is it the killers fault for trying to get a 4K when at that point they're just trying to get a 3K? The 4K is not even a factor yet. But hatch is still causing the survivors to hide indefinitely.
Everything is the killer's fault according to what you've said so far. Maybe stop villainizing the killer and treating the survivors as if they're spotless? That's what's really unhealthy here. Not trying to achieve what the game is asking you to achieve as a killer.
Also what I said meant they would rather hook someone and get their 3rd kill and let that survivor move on then get the 4th if risking it to hatch was not an issue. Not just blanket "they would rather hook no matter what the cost". I though that would be fairly obvious.
You did earn the 4K. The only way the killer didn't was if the killer got the 3rd kill after the gens were done. The last survivor earned their escape and the killer should have played better in that situation. The survivor played well enough to get out. Not the killer killing everyone else with 2-3 gens left since they played better than the collective team and the survivor just gets out because RNG said so.
Post edited by MrPenguin on5 -
What kind of cherry picking comparison is this?
The survivor isn't dead, and not only sees, but is actively taking the only steps they have available to them to survive in this scenario.
Also, in your scenario, the killer has killed 3 of the 4 survivors, and your reaction is 'the 4th kill should be automatic', and the killer shouldn't have to do anything else to pursue it.
You're expecting the 4th kill to be handed to you because 'you've already put in 75% of the effort, just give me what's mine' or some crap.
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No in my scenario the survivor earns their escape if they and their team stall the killer long enough to open the gate and leave by the time the third gets caught and hooked.
Nowhere did I say it should be automatic. Please direct me to where that was stated.
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If that's "unhealthy" to you then the survivors are equally at fault since they are also the ones perpetuation the only real win condition being a 4K in the scenario/example given.
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You feel entitled to having the hatch escape. You let go of that and the problem is gone.
'Just suicide, 4head.'
Controversial take: Survivors should not be required to off themselves.
Survivors do have a choice, they chose to hide and prolong the game just as much as the killer does. At that point it's not even a 4K, the killer is just trying for a 3K that time and the hatch is already causing problems.
What problem? That they're hiding? That they're playing cautious? That they're not throwing themselves at the killer?
Maybe stop villainizing the killer
You're the one that insists that killers will ruin the game for everyone, including themselves, because they're obsessed with making an invisible number go up.
Not trying to achieve what the game is asking you to achieve as a killer.
The game is asking you to get a move on and hook the third survivor.
Also what I said meant they would rather hook someone and get their 3rd kill and let that survivor move on then get the 4th if risking it to hatch was not an issue.
Yeah, that's called 'having your cake and eating it too'. They've already won, they've clearly dominated the game, but according to you, they actually don't care that much about wasting 4+ minutes trying to work their way around an intended game mechanism. Because if they did, they would hook the third survivor.
Saying that they'd rather 'get the third kill' is disingenuous when they then go on to not do it.
It's clear, in situations like these, where their priorities lie.
You did earn the 4K.
If you don't have it yet, you haven't earned it. Same goes for survivors that get caught in the exit gates. They did everything they needed to, to get the escape, but they haven't earned it until they cross that finish line. Or are you suggesting we alter that, too?
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Honey, if you see a guy write 'a 3K always feels like a loss (for the killer)', you should realise that that is unhealthy. This person is clearly not going to enjoy the game, but still pushes themselves to play it. That's just a bad habit.
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They win if they get the 3k so no they are not "basically complaining that the killer tried to win"
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Maybe
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I and others already addressed this if you read the rest of the thread.
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You're ignoring the survivors role in it again even though that's specifically what I was talking about. At this point the pattern is clear enough and I'm just talking to a survivor wall.
You're also misrepresenting what I'm saying on multiple occasions or leaving out very key context to argue a point different than what I'm saying. Even after I clarified further.
There's not really a point in continuing to try and talk with you when you're refusing to listen enough to even address the points I'm actually making and instead are arguing against the ones you want to hear.
You're not going to convince anyone doing that and I can't convince someone who won't actually take in what I'm saying.
Post edited by MrPenguin on3 -
I guess I will never understand this line of thinking, that an official win is somehow a loss because you didn't get one person out of the four. Like… you got majority. You won. We don't say that a team in sports winning 5-1 lost the game just because they didn't get a 6-0 result, why would it be the same here… ever?
The game is not that deep, and sweating for a 4k is not that friggin' worth it. What do you even win out of it besides an ego boost and a few extra, pointless BP you probably don't even need?
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i don't particularly care because a 3k is a win in the eyes of a majority of the community (including anyone i know who has played killer) and any attempt to contextualize it as "not a win" or "not feeling like a win" is just, in my opinion and as other people have said, ego-tripping and focusing more on trying to make sure other people lose, rather than merely trying to win
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- The killer is there to make you die.
- The killer is not your friend.
- Being mad that the killer is trying to kill you is the dumbest way you can react to what happens in dead by daylight.
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I didn't say it wasn't a win and that was also already talked about. But like you said, you don't care enough to read counterpoints so it is what it is I guess.
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if a 3k is a win then it's dishonest to say that someone who is complaining about slugging for the 4k is "complaining that the killer is trying to win." you Must maintain that only a 4k is a win, and a 3k is not, if you want to stand by that point, otherwise you are openly using dishonest framing in order to portray [people who don't want to spend an extra couple minutes on the ground] as bad guys.
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Has BHVR defined 3K as the win condition for this game? No, they have not. Many popular content creators like Otzdarva have defined that as THEIR win condition for their "Kill Streak" videos, but not every player watches them, and even if they do they are NOT those streamers. They can and will define a win themselves.
Personally? I don't really try to "win" myself, I just play the game, and sometimes I'll got for the 4K, sometimes I'll let the last survivor get hatch, hell sometimes I close the hatch then chase the last survivor to the door and nod to them as they open it, then smack them and let them crawl out (if I think there is time left on the EGC, otherwise I let them run)
But, if a player feels that only a "4K" is a win for them, then that's legitimate.3 -
Neither side is "the bad guy", or if anything both sides are. It's not always a us vs them tribalistic problem. It's understandable that survivors don't want to stay on the floor for 4 minuets (I even stated I dislike that myself) and its understandable that the killer is allowed to and expected to go for a 4K. If they want to be "nice" and go for a 3K instead that's also fine. If they are ok risking it for hatch that's also fine.
If they want to settle for the lesser win and are ok with it then cool. But that doesn't make those who don't the scum of the earth. They are just striving for the higher form of a win, which is to be expected. For players to try to get the best result they can.
A 3K is a lesser win and a 4K is a higher win. Most players are going to aim for the higher win and that's fine. That's expected in the game design. That's the expected ultimate goal of every match for killer, to kill as many survivors as possible and ideally all of them. Survivors it's to escape with as many as possible.
Then there's also players who believe that a 4K is the only time the killer won because that's what the game asks the killer to do. Whether from personal belief or because the game does not ever say that a 3K is a win, so they default to 4K. That happens on both sides btw, there are survivors that believe as long as at least 1 gets out the killer lost and the survivors won.
The main issue here imo is the game is designed in such a way, due to hatch, where once it gets to 2 survivors left the match dissolves into a waiting, slugging, and hiding fest for both sides. It's obnoxiously boring, but it's also optimal for both sides to do so it's not like I can fault either side over the other. It's just bad design pushing players into a situation where neither is happy and they are pushed to play in exceptionally uninteractive ways for an RNG chance.
If they want to play for the best result possible at least. Which is not a crime, it's to be expected.
I hope that summarizes things from my perspective well enough.
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