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Revolutionizing Dead by Daylight's Endgame: A Bold Proposal to Remove the Hatch Mechanic
To enhance the endgame experience and reduce the frustration of both survivors and killers, I propose removing the hatch mechanic. The current hatch mechanic often leads to survivors hiding instead of attempting objectives and encourages killers to slug survivors to secure a 4K, which can be frustrating for all parties involved.
New Endgame Mechanics:
- Two Survivors Left:
- Both survivors gain the ability to recover from the dying state at a 300% speed.
- After recovering, they receive 10 seconds of endurance to avoid immediate downing.
- One Survivor Left:
- The endgame sequence begins immediately.
- Both exit gates are automatically powered.
- The killer receives a Killer Instinct notification on the last survivor every 10 seconds.
- If the killer fails to down and hook the survivor within 2 minutes, Tryks, intervenes and safely extracts the survivor from the trial.
These changes aim to encourage survivors to engage with the objectives and reduce the occurrence of tedious endgame scenarios. Additionally, it provides a fair and balanced challenge for both the survivors and the killer, making the game more enjoyable for everyone.
PS: needless to say that hatch would be removed from the game and all the items/perks related to hatch would need to be reworked.
Thoughts about this?
Comments
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I really like this idea. The only thing I question is when the killer instinct for the last survivor would activate. Would it be immediately when there is only one survivor left? Really great ideas here though imo
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It would be very difficult to last 2 minutes against many killers.
But if you lover it then on other hand it's going to be near impossible for killers like Hag to ever get 4k.
I would say current setup gives better chance to escape.
And if you want to "buff" two survivors and completely remove slugging, then I would definitely want to remove any option for stealth gameplay too for them. Then I am fine with it.
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It would immediately and then every 10 seconds similar to Legion. To avoid survivors hiding for the whole 2 minutes.
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I think the pre-Mikaela Hatch was the best version of the Hatch we had (although the delayed Key usage post-Mikaela is better).
- Hatch is a tie for matchmaking purposes, so even a 3 Hatch escape is a Killer win (K/T/T/T)
- Hatch only punished boring playstyles with an anticlimactic end that still was a Killer win (tunneling someone out early, 3-genning), which we added the regression limit mechanic to address when we already had it solved. Also an anticlimactic end makes it less preferable to gate escapes, which encourages playing the game out through the normal gen+gate channel.
- If the Survivors could have gotten a 4-out through the gates, they deliberately choose to give the Killer better results by going out through hatch. (S/S/S/S → T/T/T/T)
Hatch was great for the game, and it has only been nerfed to good. We shouldn't seek to make the game even worse by removing it entirely.
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I never experienced the old hatch mechanic. Based on what you're saying it doesn't sound "great".
For matchmaking purposes, if you get a win out of 1 kil (K/T/T/T) it's working against yourself because you'll get paired against better survivor every time even getting 1 kill. If, as you mentioned in point 3, the survivors delibrately choose to get hatch to give better results to the killer, it's the same thing, the killer is not good enough for that mmr but get's his ranking higher anyways.
How is the game worse be removing hatch?
It would be a normal game and in the end you'd have a last 2 minutes to chase someone. What is not good/healthy is the last 2 survivors hiding and not even trying to do gens until you find one of them or the killer slugging the 3rd survivor for 4 minutes trying to get a 4k. Or closing the hatch and spend 2 minutes going from gate to gate looking for the survivor.Just my opinion.
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I really don't think survivors need huge endgame buffs that basically obsolete 4ks on many circumstances.
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People already suicide on the hook/DC when the game isn't winnable, and you would remove the last hope of escape?
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First off there was 2 'old Hatch' mechanics. The Hatch standoff (which is fair to complain about since it would extend match time), and the better pre-Mikaela Hatch (which was basically just the current hatch but allowed multiple people to escape with a Key+'Gens Remaining<=Dead Survs').
It wasn't great in and of itself, it was great because of what it prevented and discouraged.
Tie issue: It works best when the Survivor team basically knows it would be a lost match, and this allows for them to reasonably fight for a lesser loss instead of an impossible win. Keeping hope is important, and Kobes every other match are what happens when hope is snuffed out. Also both the Survivors and Killers can already 'spoof' MMR by hiding to die to EGC or dropping Survs out of the gates, so that isn't a Hatch unique issue.
Game worse by removing Hatch: Because again, hope is important. If the match is doomed, we get Nurse and SM Kobes from the start. That means the match never gets to be played. If the last Survivor at least has the hope of Hatch, then they won't play Metal Gear Solid for years. The only time currently that is an issue is when 2 Survivors are left with too many gens to complete. That means the Killer when too hard on them, and the Killer is annoyed as a consequence. It punishes Survivor annoyance with Killer annoyance, and ideally that means Killer plays more like a DM role, or is willing to take riskier chases or attempt riskier plays to give the Survivors more hope and the Killer an opportunity to learn a new skill to add to their repertoire.
With or without Hatch the final 2 Survs playing Metal Gear Solid will be an issue. They both are going to hide to hope the other person is dead first. The Killer bleeding out for the 4k is nothing but BM, and honestly should be reportable under the rules as intended (they literally call one of the subsections 'Unsportsmanlike Conduct').
The best way to end a clear win is by letting the Survivor take Hatch. It fits the theme of a 'final girl' escaping the Killer. It is RNG, thus not an earned win, so there is no lost face. It doesn't give the Survivor MMR (unlike closing Hatch and slipping up on gate patrols can). It gives Survivor 7k BP which is better for the player economy. It saves time rather than waiting out the 2m EGC timer. Like the only reason to go for a 4k is a tome/achievement, which can simply be fixed by counting Hatch+3k for those.
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Eh forced endgame chase is sink or swim on half the cast and on half the maps. I get removing slugging for the 4k while also giving the killer a chance to kill the last survivor no matter what. But imagine stuff like the game with an m1 killer or just massive map syndrome where someone on rpd stays on the polar opposite end of the map because you can't actually reach them in time vs blight or nurse they die ~8s after you see their aura. The killers just aren't equal at the end of the game and that's another reason people might not want to play weaker ones.
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… In what universe does anyone survivive for two minutes on a very likely already completely dead map when the killer knows pretty much exactly where they are?
On the two survivors left scenario: this discourages slugging, which is good. - However, I can't see how it incentivizes survs to engage with gens. - Quite the contrary: if you know you'll get downed and hooked once you're found the hiding will get even more intense.
Maybe combine the two; repairing gens reduces the time you have to survive by one second per charge. - So if you manage to get an entire gen worth repaired when only you and someone else are left you just have to last for 30 seconds to get out. This would actively incentivise survs to get on gens even if only two are left. With maps shrinking I also don't really see a patrolling issue for killer. - Maybe even bump all gens' progress up to the point where for five of them to be completed a total of 180 charges are needed (so gens will get completed, further reducing the patrol radius for the killer, while also giving both survs the chance to collect enough charges to reasonably escape if they end up being the last one).
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Depends on the killer and map. I'm hardly the best survivor in the world but I could very likely last two minutes vs a killer with no weak/antiloop/mobility on badham or the game. If you prerun as soon as you hear the terror radius it's gonna take them what? 20-30 seconds to catch up? Then you just use up whatever resources are left. It's pretty doable against a large part of the cast.
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2vs1 mechanic you suggest is too powerful for survivors 300% recover speed is too much. But I would solve it with simple bleedout button.
Your 1vs1 is quaranteed 4K for killer unless he is bad. So hatch should stay and I would find it fine to spawn already in 2vs1 closed. Maybe just add new objective to get it open.
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Doing this change the whole training/learning to play needs to change, and many perks has to change. And maps and keys has to change. It's a lot of change for this.
The idea seem cool, but I don't like the killer instinct option. This way it's giving the killer a better chance to get everyone easier. This will be more competetive gamestyle.
I don't think this change is a healty change to end slugging, or for the game in general.
Some ideas:
Give all survivors a basekit 1 unbreakable. And make the unbreakable perk a infinite recover, with a 35% speed to recover.
Or all survivors have 1 unbreakable basekit that cost their bleeding out bar while being slugged on the ground.
I know slugging for 4k is a boring gamestyle. But some do for challengers, like rift or throphy. Or they believe getting them all, is the ultimate win in their gamestyle.
If we want to end slugging. Killing points could stop at killing 3 survivors. This way it could change the gamestyle. Then devs have to work on another bloodpoints system.
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The old hatch was very unhealthy and made the game worse.
It didn't punish unfun play styles like tunnelling and slugging, it encouraged it. If the killer played for 12 hooks and then killed someone at 1 gen remaining, it was GG. All 3 are gone now because they brought a key. The counter play to that was to sweat your butt off and try to kill them all before you got down to 2 gens remaining to prevent the guaranteed 2-3 man escape. You had to tunnel the key user out earlier or slug everyone so that you don't spawn the hatch too early. And that was only if you knew they had a key. Some survivor animations made it ridiculously difficult to tell if they had a key in the lobby AND you could find it in a chest and suddenly it's a free win.
Punishing the killer for "going too hard" on the survivors is also not fair at all. 2 survivors at 2 gens isn't uncommon and isn't going too hard at all. It would like if the killer only has 4 hooks at the end game, 2 survivors suddenly die as punishment for being too good. That's not fair. You shouldn't have to purposefully play bad to avoid losing.
Old hatch was awful for the game. It just made the game sweatier and less enjoyable. If the main reason you want it is to avoid Nurse and Skull Merchant games, then I think the better solution is to change those killers rather than make a mechanic that punishes the other killers harder (because games against those 2 are more likely to never 1-2 gens, it's much less likely the hatch mechanic will come into play against them but against Trapper it would be too common and game changing).
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If you are talking Hatch grab old Hatch I would I agree, but that's why I always qualify with the pre-Mikaela Hatch.
In the 9 hook first kill at 1 gen, you can make sure the Key holder is the one you killed, and can defend their death hook as a 4th patrol spot. It also still allowed for closing Hatch, so you could close Hatch after the first person hops out. Even after all that effort, Killer still won.
Punishing Killer for going too hard on Survivors isn't fair - As long as you stay logically consistent and think Survivors should get 25k BP when the Killer is essentially AFK, then sure. I still think when I am easily winning as Killer (say 6 hooks still at 5 gens) I should ease up off the gas and try new tricks, no matter how risky, because I know I (could have) won regardless of the results.
OG Hatch was awful for the game, agreed. Pre-Mikaela Hatch was a net positive. A mild nuisance at worst, paired with solving numerous problems that cropped up to prominence only after Pre-Mikaela Hatch's removal, yeah Pre-Mikaela Hatch was great.
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I’m talking about the same hatch as you. Any time the hatch could be opened before every gen was completed/being the last survivor alive was unhealthy and unfun to deal with.
You couldn’t make sure the key holder was the one who died first because:
- It was pretty difficult to even see if someone had a key
- They often went into hiding towards the end so you couldn’t find them.
- The rest of the team played aggressively to guard and you couldn’t even do anything about it because as soon as they die it’s over
You couldn’t guard the key because the survivors could just instantly pick it up. They don’t need to do gens at all because as soon as you leave the key spot it’s over and they win. You couldn’t close the hatch because that triggered EGC and instantly repaired all the remaining gens. You had to wait for it to close itself and that just gave the survivors time to work on gens unpressured and it STILL felt awful because the survivor just escaped in your face for free.
It was also incredibly unfun to experience it as a solo queue survivor because your teammate would be getting tunnelled and you just have to sit on a gen all game. And then they would just dip and leave you to die anyway. And it made survivor queue times really long since killers would dodge lobbies with keys. And then survivors started last seconds switching so killers started leaving during the loading screen. So it just took forever.
I’m all for giving survivors more BP but I really don’t see how that is anyway comparable. 25k BP is not the same as an instant loss. Besides killers don’t even get bonus BP when survivors give up on hook anyway so I fail to see how that is comparable.
There’s nothing wrong with going easy on people when it is clearly in your favour, I do the same often, however the game should not balanced around that.
I really don’t think there was anything good about the previous hatch design. Unless you were playing in a SWF, it was just a miserable time to play a game with a key. It was way too stressful as killer to deal with it and as a solo survivor it was boring. The current version we have isn’t perfect and I wouldn’t mind some changes to it, but the hatch should never be anything more than a last chance escape.
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I would say healthy and unfun, but that was the point. To discourage the worst of behaviors that we instead needed to implement a Regression limit for, among other base game flaws. To be clear, I do think the Key Hatch-open animation and charge minimum requirement for keys they did in the Mikaela patch was all the needed, but that is a fix to keys. not Hatch (although I believe they were done in the same patch, so that's fair to link the thought).
As far as soloq, that has changed nothing for me. When it gets obvious that the match is hopeless, Survivors are swapping to Metal Gear Solid regardless if they had a key or not. They still do the exact same thing now that Hatch was changed.
Killers lobby dodging is still a problem, and if I soloq into someone else using their P100, the lobby gets dodged at a far greater rate than Keys ever made people dodge (at least in my experience). Killer Lobby Shopping needs DC penalties at a lesser rate (2 or 3 dodged lobbies counts as a DC?) to fix matchmaking and prevent Killers from ruining match integrity from the onset. Not a Key/Hatch unique problem.
A Hatch escape isn't an instant loss. First off it is a win for Killer since at least one person died, or the Survivors gave up a full gate win to settle for a lesser tie, turning a -4 loss for Killer into a 0 tie. For the BP/'punished' aspect, even if someone is tunneled out and the Killer gets 3 hooks 1 kill 1 gen remaining triple Hatch escape, the Killer is likely still getting minimum 20k BP for doing 3/12 of their objective, compared to a Survivor soloing all 5 gens, opening the gate, and escaping with 14.5k max(1250x5 gens, 1250 Gate open, 7k Escape). The comparison I'm making is a Survivor doing ALL of their primary objective comes out with ~3/8ths the max BP, and a Killer doing 1/4 their primary objective comes out with ~1/2 of theirs. My issue is that a Survivor is 'punished' for playing ALL of their primary objective against even an AFK Killer, and the Killer is still rewarded with excess BP (compared to what they did) and a win with a 3 Hatch escape (W/T/T/T).
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I don't think something is healthy if it is unfun for the majority of the player base.
As I said multiple times, it didn't discourage anything. You had to tunnel and slug to counter it. Camping the key user out was also very common. The only I guess it did help was 3 gens, but as you said the regression limit takes care of that and is much healthier for the game.
Yes you still get teammates give up when it's hopeless, you still had those back then but you also had survivors abandon you even when you could have still won. 3 survivors left at 1 gen is very possible to win. Have one of them leave and suddenly those other 2 are screwed.
Yes dodging is a problem but it was WAY worse back then. If we just go by the logic of "it's still an issue so why not make it worse?" then the game would have died years ago. I do think lobby dodging should have some fix, but unfortunately they can't do anything about that until they fix OCE getting stuck in 150+ ping lobbies every second game. Which I doubt will happen anytime soon sadly.
From an MMR point of view, yes you technically gained MMR, but I wouldn't call it a win from a players POV. If anything it was worse to gain MMR because then you were more likely to play against the teams that keys. It felt awful either way and I really don't think it was good for the game simply because it kinda discouraged one playstyle.
As for the BP gains, sure increase them, who cares? But that scenario still isn't comparable. The killer isn't playing whereas the survivors with the key were. Your aren't being punished for outplaying on the killer, you are being punished because the BP gains are already low and the killer just isn't playing. An actual comparable thing would be if the killer plays bad they can bring an item that instantly kills you. Like the original moris.
It's clear that we disagree and I'm not going to try and convince you when we both won't change our minds, so let's just agree to disagree.
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You're really fixated on BP. I don't care about BP. Like, at all. I want three survivors dead. That's my win condition. If three survivors bipple bap out the hatch I'm never getting that and it feels like I've been robbed a match.
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Against Trapper who doesn't have traps on game - maybe. Remember he knows where you are every 10 seconds and is able to path more efficiently to your location. And even then I doubt it's gonna be 2 minutes until down. — But even if it is. That 1v1 mechanic at the end is a killer win on anyone except no-mobility M1 killers, which also don't have stealth or a way to intercept you/block your pathing. So that would be … Freddy? Even Trapper usually has traps he can place in strategic places during the 2v1.
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@ColdCobalt , @VomitMommy , @mizark3 , @Ohyakno , @cclain , @bjorksnas , @Halloulle , @Deathstroke , @Nightram , @BlightedDolphin
What about this?
When there are two Survivors Left…
- Both survivors gain the ability to recover from the dying state at a 100% speed.
- After recovering, they receive 10 seconds of endurance, to avoid immediate downing.
- If fewer than three generators have been completed, the remaining generators will be completed automatically, except for the five that are the furthest apart. This ensures the last two survivors need to complete only two more generators to power the gates.
- During this phase, if at least one generator has not had any progress for the last 10 seconds, the killer receives Killer Instinct on both survivors for 3 seconds.
When there is 1 survivor left, current rules apply.
This way it is ensured that the survivors still have a fair chance at escaping the trial. We avoid slugging for the 4k, we avoid survivors hiding until the other die (even with stealthy perks you can't hide from killer instinct).
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You think you are leaving as 2 survivors with 2 gens left? Seems like lot of work for little effect
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on the fouth the wording is a bit odd; There are five gens that are furthest apart and if at least one generator doesn't get progress after ten seconds there's killer instinct… which would be always cause two survs can't progress four gens at the same time.
I also don't get the ten second time frame. - If you say "surv gets killer instinct on them if they don't touch a gen for ten seconds"… then that's gg right there; a killer just has to walk up to a gen that has progress and circle around it for ten seconds; they either spot the surv themselves or the surv gets revealed by killer instinct. You can't repair a gen while chasing or trying to throw the killer for a loop by playing stealthily.
Just scrap the killer instinct in the 2v1 and make it so that a survivor risking repairing a gen in the 2v1 has a better chance of succeeding in the 1v1. (e.g. by shortening the time they need to survivive in the 1v1 depending on how much generatorprogress they achieved)
As for the one survivor left: Same thing. No one lasts against a killer for two minutes, except on rare occasions where the map is basically fresh and the killer is Freddy. (Exaggerated. - But I want someone to show me how they run the killer roster for 2 mins without using resources. Consistently. I dare say it's impossible.)
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This could work as a new game mode. Idk if the community want this change for the main game.
Remove the killer instinct, it's too OP.
I understand you want to end slugging. And survivors have more than enough perks against slugging. Even I usually run slugging perks to maybe survive, or help my team.
I know this might sound boring, but slugging is a part of the game, the same as tunneling. It's not against the game rules.
The only mechaninc most of the community is asking for. Is a way to faster bleed out. People want to go in for the next round.
Your idea is cool. But I don't think this is a good change for the game. Maybe try it out as a game mode and get peoples opinion about it.
Could there be another way to get less slugging in game? I guess having a basekit unbreakable for one use would hinder slugging. Or buff unbreakable to infinite recover with a faster speed increase recovering.
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My problem was with the 2nd part not the first one, cannot be lumped in
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There was a PTB with basekit UB and it was never mentioned again after that PTB. Basekit UB on all occasions isn't it. - Having it be limited to the 2v1 situation seems, honestly, fine to me; bleed out is one thing but the killer is the "offending" party by bending over backwards and deliberately ignoring their objective. At that point there isn't really any way to abuse UB anymore; any killer who wants to avoid UB getting abused simply has to hook the survivor they downed. That's the fastest way for everyone to move on to next match.
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To eleminate slugging, infinite unbreakable. Then killers will hook.
Sometimes killer slug when all 4 live. Unbreakable could get buffed.
And yes everything gets abused in the game. So we gotta try out sonething that dosen't include a huge change on perks and the game itself.
At least have one basekit unbreakable that can cost your dying bar. That way slugging won't take forever if you get downed after you get up again.
But again, slugging, camping and tunneling is a gamestyle for many killers. There is no way to eleminate it. But we could reduce it's gamestyle.
But if you DC you will get a penalty, too many will be a ban. After we got bots we don't really need the DC penalty anymore. If only we could just DC if the slugging is that bad. Or another gamestyle you get tired of.
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That's part of what I think is inaccurate, it isn't unfun for the majority of the playerbase, because the majority of the playerbase isn't playing into making the worst aspects of it happen. It is a mirror shield of unfun, where you only get blinded if you tried to blind someone else. Not enough of the game gives empathy for the other side, and this gave a needed empathy reflection for many Killer players.
Camping/tunneling the Key user out doesn't delete the key from the match, it stays on hook or where they last dropped it. So this is a petulant child's reaction, that is ill served by taking this route. The best countermeasure is to keep track of Survivors, and kill the key user first after a long enough match that the Survivors no longer had a Key escape in their mind.
I mean I get Survivors abandoning SM and Nurse matches when we can still win, so again, not a Key/Hatch issue. People using Sole Survivor are doing this 'abandon the team at the slightest bit of resistance' playstyle to this day, and they are rewarded with Gate Escapes.
Dodging worse then, I suppose we have to agree to disagree. I think dodging is far worse since P100's being visible in the lobby were seen. Maybe that's just my experience vs yours. Also I'm West Coast america(s) and get VPN Killers from across the Pacific ALL THE TIME. I check their steam profile and see a certain nation show up far more often than any other, and I know they have a server far closer than mine (and even EU servers are closer than mine). I don't know OCE server situation, so I can't speak to that issue.
The MMR issue makes my point for me, a win where you made someone feel bad should feel bad in return. That's what old Hatch did. I can win consistently attempting 8 hooks before my first kill (9th hook being first kill), and when I had that playstyle back in Rank based matchmaking, old Keys/Hatch were never an issue for me.
My whole point with BP was addressing your issue of 'punishment'. Survivors are still 'punished' to this day for playing the game in a manner that isn't annoying to the other side, yet we changed this issue 'punishing' undesired Killer behaviors back to encouraging them.
On your final point, that's fine with me if you choose to respond or not. These are asynchronous conversations that aren't only for us two, but also all other readers.
Just because I have to do a great deal of math to prove my point, doesn't mean I'm fixated on it. It truly is a 1-2 sentence issue should you choose to read the 2nd to last paragraph in my reply to the other person. When I post 4 paragraphs and you think 1 paragraph is a 'fixation', that tells me there is either an issue with my communication, or your interpretation.
3 Survs escaping through Hatch wasn't happening at nearly the rate people are reporting, and it was rarely an issue even when they brought a key. Plus it provides a great deal of comfort to me that I now know that they don't have Toolboxes or Medkits, things that can actually affect normal matches to a meaningful degree (especially with old Medkits).
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- "The killer receives a Killer Instinct notification on the last survivor every 10 seconds.
- If the killer fails to down and hook the survivor within 2 minutes…"
To stay alive 2 minutes in the endgame when all the pallets of the map are probably gone is a dream for killers. How a survivor can do that ? Not to mention the visibility going worst for the both sides…
Some ideas are good but I don't think it is really realisitic.
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So I generally try to think of how people can abuse things when I'm not the one suggesting the idea, and I just had a 'work with Killer' Survivor recently, so what would a 'work with Killer' Survivor do here?
The honest Survivor would attempt a gen, but the other Survivor is just going to search lockers and whatnot, and abuse the HUD to seek them out. The honest Surv doesn't have enough time to search for a gen and tap it to prevent this. We can't prevent people from working with Killer, but we can give the honest players enough info for a report.
- Make the Killer Instinct delay a little bit longer, and recover up to say 30s from continuous gen work. So a gen tap sets it to 10s (must prevent regression if it is applied though), then 20s of pumping gens raises it to 30s.
- Make the Killer Instinct a per-player timer, that way the rat/Working With Killer player gets revealed, and also reveal them to the other player when this happens.
- Make the Killer Instinct timer reset to 30s when revealed, that way if someone is ratting the entire time, they don't get off scott-free if the Killer can't find them within the 3s initial Killer Instinct.
- Maybe pause the Killer Instinct timer (at a max of 10s left on the timer) if the Survivor is within the greater of Terror Radius/16m or in chase. Stealth shouldn't be entirely removed as an option, especially if someone is actually pumping a gen to save the timer then slipping out safely. Also a chased player doesn't need Killer Instinct as the Killer should down them eventually.
With those, it would give an honest Survivor enough time to record evidence of Working With Killer for a report, not delete stealth entirely, and also eliminate the edge case of not finding someone within 3s of Killer Instinct.
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