Something has to be done about 2 Survivors left
Again, why is it a bad idea to have hatch spawn but locked when there’s only 2 Survivors left? I feel like it would give keys more legitimacy. It would also foster a collaborative relationship between the last two players as opposed to the often times adversarial too few times heroic dynamic that exists today.
Comments
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I feel like there's a lot of other things they could do instead of bringing back early hatch.
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It seems like a simple solution to the 2 Survivor problem. At least to me it does.
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We don't need free escape through keys
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but that would need some restrictions tho
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I guess I just think it would feel more thrilling. 2 Survivors left feels kind of boring on both sides right now.
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I think that's a decent suggestion. Keys need an overhaul as is (green key anyway) and this would then encourage people to use them. Only downside is that we'd probably go back to the days of killers tunnelling key holders out. But it also opens the door for more perks around keys (in the same manner as Pharmacy, Residual Manifest, etc), especially since I feel like they're struggling a bit with survivor perk ideas
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Wouldn’t it be so cool to have it where Survivors are motivated to get the key holder to the final two with them so they both escape? Or… Let the key holder die so you can take the key!
I honestly see more solutions than problems with this idea.
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Both sides huh, killer put effort to sacrifice two survivors, they deserves the win
You are basically asking for pure RNG which will tie the game without any input from the killer, what is thrilling about it
I think I should ask for a mechanics that will instantly sacrifice two of survivors upon gate power up, because it's "thrilling" I guess
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My wincondition is at least 3 kills, I'd really love if I don't lose just because they brought a key even if they didn't win by doing all generators and escape. The alternativ is that we bring back tunneling people that bring keys in an instant and make them REALLY upset xD
Oh and it wouldn't feel "thrilling" at all, it's just another thing I have to play around or I'll lose without anything I can do about that. At that point we can bring back old morris because if survivors don't have to do all generators I shouldn't have to do all hookstages to kill them, it surely VERY thrilling if you're just 1-2 hits away from death at all time xD
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Honestly, I love the Killer role. Too much sometimes.
But you never feel like the hunting the final two Survivors with 3 gens left is kind of lame? It’s so easy to patrol.
To make it fair, keys should take a lot longer to open hatch, and progress should quickly regress when it is left alone. That way the Killer can monitor and orbit between the hatch and other generators. If the Survivors want to complete gens they'll have more leeway to do so.
In the way that Bloodwarden makes Survivors paranoid, the Killer can always be paranoid about keys. That’s kind of cool for a game like this isn’t it?
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I get where you’re coming from. I really do!
Tunneling the keyholder would be a necessary evil. It could bring back key stashes. Who knows. It sounds interesting especially with the Weave Attunement Franklin’s Demise synergy we have right now. Add Lara’s treasure finding play style and idk, it feels like keys can make a comeback.
And it doesn’t mean it has to be unfair, it can be like an exit gate that quickly regresses. Heck, It can be even longer than an exit gate. Maybe key rarity determines how fast it unlocks the hatch.
It doesn’t sound at least a little bit fun to you?
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Nope not at all, it's just a lot of effort to negate losing to rng, it's not even consistant if I lose to that if I don't tunnel instantly. It was one of the worst things I had a problem with as I started playing and I didn't miss it ever xD
There are a lot of things I don't have controll over as killer:
Perks and items of the survivors
Maps
Which loops are connected in which way
and Gen spawns
I want at least know that I have the full 5 generators time to win, that's all I ask for.
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Have considered this many times and the main reason I can think of is even current hatch effectively punishes the killer for completing their objective. It takes what was a guaranteed 4k win, and denies it from you, and is an issue now, but at the very least is something you can handle via slugging for the 4k. It may be annoying, but if the killer wants to (or has to) get a 4k, they have the ability to do so...
I've spitballed with myself a few times, and the only way I could see hatch spawned at 2 players could work and be fair is if you make it another map objective the killer has to defend.
E.g: -
- The hatch spawns closed with 2 players left alive.
- The hatch is blocked by fog that needs 20 uninterrupted seconds to clear, and only remains cleared for 15s before resetting.
- The killer can see the aura of hatch in the same way they can see generators.
- Once cleared a survivor with a key can open the hatch and escape.
- Only 1 survivor can escape through hatch, it is permanently left open but blocked by irremovable fog from this point on.
- The other survivor is now locked in the trial and must complete gens and escape via the gates.
- If all 3 players are dead and only 1 player is left alive, the hatch opens but must still have the fog cleared before the survivor can escape.
- The killer can close the opened hatch any time to start EGC as per usual (Note: this also powers the gates same as now).
I've never been happy enough with it to suggest it, and there is a severe need to rethink keys as an item in general. I think the Broken key should be remade into a "Crooked Key" and take 10s to open hatch, the other keys take 2 seconds..
Keys also need to be given a standard aura... with this rework in place I'd say 20s maybe across the board. Maybe the dull key gets only 10s but for the benefit of a 2s hatch.
That's my latest point of it... I think it would work cause the killer can make the active choice to ensure the player with a key dies before 2 survivors are left... but this would be the only way I can see the hatch being fair with 2 players.
I could possibly see slugging for the 4k go, as the survivor has to find the hatch, but also needs to find a key. I can imagine a key perk like Scavenger, Pharmacy, and Residual Manifest needing to be a possibility...
However at least this would mean there would be unironic value to something like Sole Survivor. The hatch standoff would mean actually going to do a generator might actually he viable.
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What if the Killer gets to see the the aura of the hatch as soon as the second Survivor dies? Just like the generators? It may also decrease the amount of times that the final two hide for too long.
It’s not just a tiny bit tempting to explore?
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Have you read some of the suggestions I’ve written to others in this thread so far? What do you think? How do you feel about the differences between both of our ideas? There are a lot of similarities.
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Nope sorry, I'd still prefer having to search people to kill them over having that forth super weird thing I have to defend even tho the survivors may never find it.
I just have 3 people as wincondition the last one can escape through rng if it has to be, but I want a realistic chance to get my win. It's just not interesting for me to have a chance to lose for absolutely nothing, I didn't like it before where even 3 people could escape that way, I still don't like it today where it would be 2 people xD
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For what it’s worth I completely respect your position. I even agree that it’s completely valid.
Just from a game design POV it seems… like a loose end? That when there’s two Survivors left with 3 gens left there’s no real motivation or hope to actually complete the match to the fullest. With this hatch idea I imagine it would be too tempting to ignore for the Survivors. It’d lure them to you if they are greedy otherwise they move the game along and maybe get a small chance at a gen escape win.
But again I do respect your position.
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If we talk about game design POV from PvP games, we should add a surrender option and call it a day, there is no reason survivors should come back from already completely lost game, and also add a timer which forces survivors to touch the gen
Pretty much any of the PvP games has no such things as instant free win of losing side
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Aye, I have read and pondered your suggestions, and I do agree far more gameplay avenues open up for survivors... the one concern I have is these reworks (even mine) for hatch places more stress on the killer when they are supposed to be the one winning in this scenario.
I've gone much harder putting it in the killers favour; the hatch is blocked, the aura is revealed to killer, and Keys don't open instantly, and even with all this I'm still not sure I can call it fair for the killer.
That said, I agree with the principle of hatch, in that survivors need to have something to still shoot at to try to escape. If we remove hatch entirely there is literally no incentive to try once a game has gone south, so hatches middle finger to killer is a bit of a necessary evil…
This conflict of points is why I have never formally made my above suggestion... cause I have done all the Adepts, and my suggestion with all of its restrictions is the only way I can see of making it fair...
But at the same time there are plenty of survivor achievements (like crawl through hatch) that become impossible with this change. (Unless you do something like blocking the hatch only applies to non dying survivors)... and as a Pig main, there is also head trap Pig to consider...
I also expect a push back in general from Survivors for blocking hatch and giving the killer the aura... it's like slugging for the 4k is necessary to put the winning game in the killers hands. If you want to remove slugging for the 4k, for it to be fair, then you need to still put the game in the winning killers hands, which means making a very unfair setup for the last survivor...
We then also have considered this is another scenario where fast map traversal killers outshine m1 killers again... so we widen the gulf between top and bottom killers even more...
So the issue is very complicated, and has many things to think about with this mechanic 😅
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First of all: I wouldn't and shouldn't have very high hope anyways if I get destroyed at 3 gens basically.
Second: Giving them a rng element to escape is not the way.
It would be better to just give them a repair-boost scaling with gens remaining, maybe with the condition that one of them has to be chased to get a huge boost for the one not chased and otherwise it's just a small one for both. That way they would get consistant help AND they would be encouraged to interact with the killer. I personally would prefer this even as survivor and I'd probably be the one that wants to take the chase xD
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Yeah… Wow definitely. I follow your train of thought and you’re right, the Killer can’t be “punished” for winning. It’s indisputable really.
But there’s still the issue of the feeling of going through the motions when it’s the final two Survivors… There’s nothing to do other than let yourself get caught or outlast your team mate. Both feel wrong especially since the outlasting part can get both of you reported.
On the Killer side there is as you said, the necessary evil of slugging for the 4k. But even then for me when playing Killer it feels like going through the motions once it’s down to the final two.
I’m really happy you decided to share your ideas and thoughts. Now I know there are others who are interested in solving this puzzle.
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the hatch idea you had is just awfull. We don't need free escapes like we used to have. Sure something needs to be done about slugging for the 4k but it needs to be in the lines of faster bleedout option and not something free which can be abused to get a free 2 man out.
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Hm… I really like the idea. I like it a lot.
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Sure, I understand. But does that mean that once the second Survivor is dead the game is over? Once it’s the final two there’s no more incentive to survive is there?
The game needs to change in some way when it’s the final two. It needs to respect the Killer’s gains while also giving something for the last two to hope for. I’m not sure the current hatch solves that problem very well.
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Yeah I just came up with it so I can't tell much about the numbers needed to give remotely a chance or to make it not too op, but I think it would be the best for both parties.
Also I don't know if maybe a little boost for the person being chased would be needed... Idk maybe a few percent vaultspeed or something like that, movementspeed would be too crazy I think if I'm remembering mft and it's potential to drag chases for years xD
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That’s very interesting. Almost like a resilience/old mft that kicks in for the final two Survivors?
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Indeed, and I must admit, I get frustrated when I have to 4k for an Adept or challenge, cause its just an unfun slog. I only find end game interesting when you knock down the 3rd survivor and say "OK <4th> let's roll the dice and see if you get lucky". However if I actually need the 4k, then you just slug and then wander around hoping you spot the 4th and then hope you dowj them and can find the 3rd survivor at the end without a boring lengthy search 😒
It's one of the reasons I usually play with the intent of letting the last survivor go regardless, taking the 3rd sacrifice and rolling the dice on hatch is so much less tedious. If they get hatch, I already planned to give it them anyway, so it keeps me from getting salty or wound up xD
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Kind of, it depents how much the repair-boost in chase would be if the chase-boost is even needed, same with exact numbers.
I think this idea is also very balanced for all playstyles a survivor can have:
they hide so they only get a small boost so the killer has a longer time to find them, but they still get a boost and maybe have a chance.
or one of them takes the risk and grands a huge boost for the other person getting a much higher chance to escape if they can loop the killer for a while. That way it would even value looping-skill in particular.
Maybe add a effect similar to bitter murmur after every gen to discourage hiding at least a little bit further dragging into interacting with the killer. Of course the exact duration of the auras shouldn't be to long so you only know the direction but not exact hiding spot.
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Tedious is a really great way of putting it. Yes, it is very tedious.
By the way have you seen @KatsuhxP ‘s idea? Leave hatch as is and instead give the final two some sort of buff like old mft and resilience vaulting. What do you think?
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Those are all good ideas. The issue is that some may be too complicated for people to understand right away. How do you feel about a flat minor buff to chase ability?
Once it is the final two Survivors they both get a slight buff to vault speed (as you mentioned) and movement speed.
And that’s it. Killers get to keep their gains while giving Survivors some hope. Expert Survivors that like to loop but still might lose will have fun with the buff. Beginner players will feel maybe more confident to take chase making it a good learning opportunity and reward for making it to the final two.
It shouldn’t sway matches except in very close cases. What do you think?
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I wouldn't see a problem with that I just found it interesting as Idea because it's usuable for every playstyle, but yes this game is really not great in explaining things and with some people not even able to read perks it could surely be to complicated xD
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That's an interesting approach. It's basically a catch up mechanic.
My initial concern is that might be a bit disproportionate of an effect depending on killer. MfT + Resilience vs. Trapper, Doctor, Myers or Pig is horrible to deal with... the same vs. Blight, Wesker, Nurse and Hillbilly is barely even a buff. 😅
I think in a perfect world where all killers are equal, a catch up mechanic is probably a fine idea, but in a game with such disparity between low to high tier killers, it becomes a bit of a can of worms. We're unfortunately back into punishing the killer for winning territory.
If we remove hatch it might be interesting if there were buffs in play depending on hooks though. E.g. each time a survivor dies the number of remaining hooks gives a repair bonus, or even a repair penalty. Something like:
First dead survivor:
- 3 hooks +9% repair speed.
- 4 hooks +6% repair speed.
- 5 hooks +3% repair speed.
- 6 hooks +0% repair speed.
- 7 hooks -3% repair speed.
- 8 hooks -6% repair speed.
Second dead survivor:
- 6 hooks +8% repair speed.
- 7 hooks +4% repair speed.
- 8 hooks +0% repair speed.
- 9 hooks -4% repair speed.
- 10 hooks -8% repair speed.
Third dead survivor:
- 9 hooks +10% repair speed.
- 10 hooks +0% repair speed.
- 11 hooks -10% repair speed.
That seems pretty fair. I'm struggling for a lore reason to explain, beyond calling it something like Entity Blood Thirst. The quicker you kill aurvivors the less interest teb Entity has and thua wants the trial over faster. The more hooks the liller gets, the more the Entity wantavto feast on the pain in the trials, so makes gens take longer...
EDIT: The hardest tunneling killers can end up with survivors getting 9%, 17% and 27% repair speed buff for the remaining survivors... where a killer who spreads hooks gets a repair debuff of -6%, -14%, -24% debuff to help.
Though on reflection this might have to be something granted via hook stages as the acrue, as the altruistic killer only gets their debuffs when survivor dies... so I'd rejig this to debuffs after 3rd hooks, and repair buffs when survivors die...
However you get the idea I'm sure.
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Well I’m glad you replied and worked it out with me. It’s a great solution to the… hopelessness(?) of the final two Survivors.
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Problem would be that duos would just be incentivized to the let third person on the hook die so they can hatch out together. It was (sort of) like that with the old hatch where if there was one generator left a trio would let the solo die on the hook for an early escape. It'd just make solo survivor ass all over again.
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Those are great ideas! The only thing I can see is that it may be too complicated to understand right away.
Would the chase buffs make too much of a difference? I suppose they could… I still can’t leave the idea alone.
What do you think about flat minor chase buffs to the final two Survivors?
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It's the old MFT debate regarding chase buffs sadly. Those extra half a meters you gain really screw up the slower killers. Doctor was basically unplayable vs. MFT cause his power slows him down and he just lost distance trying to use it. You can literally loop Huntress for eternity on a circular rock with nothing she can do about it without bloodlust. Characters like Pig already struggle with people holding w at pallets vs. her dash, and MFT just made it even worse.
However characters like Blight, Nurse or Spirit barely noticed it....
I still can’t leave the idea alone.
All Good! Enthusiasm is always great to see... sorry to be the kill joy 😅
Since I started playing DBD has astounded me with just how intricate a game it is. The number of things you would think would be small and not a big deal that somehow have a huge ripple effect is insane to me... I've never seen a game with such a delicate ecosystem 😅
I mean look at how much a difference 5% on pain res has made? Literally the value of 1 kick worth of regression... 5 seconds worth.... yet now nowhere near as common as it was.
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You’re right. It’s clear that it’s a sensitive game. So many things hinge on each other in weird unexpected ways.
The problem comes full circle. Something has to be done about the two Survivor problem. And then the hatch idea again punishes the Killer..
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Make them both Moriable and once one has been mori-ed the other and the killer could gain a temporary Left Behind effect (see the hatch aura for +/-3 seconds), then you can race one another to the hatch. It could add more risk and reward.
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Great idea! How about a system where depending on how much gen progress/chase time/altruistic actions a meter can fill that determines whether the hatch even spawns and the one who has the most of the meter filled can use a key (perhaps make the key auto-populate only on these conditions?)
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Well my initial idea did already say that speed would be to much that's why i'd give vaultspeed or something like that, MFT can and will kill slower killers, that's why I would like to avoid it at all costs xD
You can have a relatively easy lore behind it:
The entity feasts of hope as far as I know, that's why he allows perks and items of the survivors and he restrains the powers of some killers, they should have hope for him to be usefull xD
So a mechanic generating more hope is actually good for him.
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Killer deserves to win against the other half of the team because the other 2 lost? I thought this was a 1v1v1v1v1? That's an auto win, just like hatch.
I got 3 gens done and won a chase, do I deserve to win? Apparently not.
This game doesn't respect surivors time. Oh some1 got tunneled out at 5 gens? I guess killer deserve the win now.
Hatch does not qualify as an escape hence no mmr gain.
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The Hatch used to spawn based on the number of currently alive survivors + 1, in terms of generators finished.
They changed that for a reason; it was leading to matches where people just would skip the rest of the match and get a free win, and that ######### was awful.2 -
These are all good ideas!
The only issue is they have so many steps that can be confusing at a glance. I feel that the solution needs to be hyper simple and instantly understandable like hatch or buffs.
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1v1v1v1v1 is a stupid idea and definitely doesn't belong to the game, survivors are and should be a team, trying to make it otherwise only leads to broken game (includes the hatch and complete hiding at two survivors remain)
All that soloq problem and SWF problems rises from this, BHVR should stop trying to make a game like "horror game simulator" because it literally doesn't work, at least giving all the information they needs is absolute necessary
The simple fact is, you don't deserve a win when you aren't even trying, in DbD which means playing solo, even then good players will escape rather consistently just fine because they can "do 3 gens and won a chase or two" every match, not once in an eclipse
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