Why is the gen balancing so far off?
I just got back into dbd after more then a 4 months break.
Let's put aside the gen bug which is absolutely mindbreaking that even almost a week after the update there is no fix for that.
I am currently really wondering what bhvr is thinking with their perk balancing. They nerfed almost every gen regression perk (besides surge) and the only one to receive a buff is orpression. On the other hand it looks like survivors get a new gen progression perk with every update. I've seen people doing a single gen in less then 20 seconds.
It is not surprising that after the first chase 2 gens are done in almost every match and a third one is already on the way. With that amount of gen pressure it is almost certain that killers need to play extremly agressive, especially when facing swf. The nerfs in gen regerssion perks paired with the new gen progression perks result in the fastest matches I have ever seen. For context, I played both sides and have been playing for years so this is not a rant but rather confusion.
I do not enjoy the speed of the matches as killers with low mobility have it a lot harder, matches are very short and stressfull and especially rarely fun.
I am wondering what other people think about these changes.
Comments
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My only complaints about it is toolboxes. I wouldn't even be opposed to gen times being shorter again if toolboxes weren't so kitted out. One thing I've always said, is stuff like this should just have a hard cap.
Regression, Progression, %'s given and taken, both for healing and gen repair, maybe even haste and other speed stuff like vaults and break speeds would benefit from caps and stop both sides from going too far before problems arise. That, and perks could potentially be strong in their own right with said caps. Heck, even make a little stats HUD in the loadout menu to show all that stuff and how high it gets capped.
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What you're saying is spot on and exactly what I've been saying for a long time now.
The games fly by way too fast once you get experienced survivors who know what they are doing. All the popular regression perks were nerfed into the ground, and there was very little compensation aside from +10 seconds to generator time.
I kind of get what bhvr was doing, but there was a reason that most people were running these regression perks. Hint: being the strongest and most meta of the perks isn't the problem. It's a symptom that most killers feel the generators get done too quickly.
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And yet I see the same Slowdown-Perks as always, despite them all being nerfed, "ruined", "gutted", "dead"…
And I dont see the new Lara-Perk at all.
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gen time are oppressive for killer with 0 toolboxes and 0 progression. Toolboxes and progression perk only take base foundation which is imbalanced and make it more imbalanced.
4 man swf that gen-rush already do all gens in like 5-6 minutes. you give 4 man swf now 4 toolboxes and now they're clearing the game in 3-4 minutes. A killer goes from like 3 hooks in 5-6 minutes to like 1 or 2 hooks.
in practice, the ideal for killer should be that when killer applies pressure and acquires hooks, the game slowdown for killer. when they fumble chase, they lose generators. with how it is now, you lose generator even when your applying pressure as killer. for example, if killer is successful in getting 3 hook in 4 minutes, the game should not be 6-7 minutes, it should be 7-8 minutes. if he gets 6 hooks, than the game should be 8-10 minutes etc.
oppressive gen-rushing only be possible with toolboxes and gen progression perks. the 6-7 minutes should be with toolboxes. right now you can kinda gen-rush without gen perks. that is why it is extremely common for SWF to just stack second chance mechanics such as Lithe, Dead hard, Sprint burst[Exhaust], Decisive strike, Adrenaline, Unbreakable with med-kit Syringe. You know, just have a bunch of second chances. SWF can break gen-speed in the game, but they don't need too. They kinda already have enough gen speed at base-kit because… killer has 0 good defence mechanics base-kit.
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Because they are still the only line of defense many killers have, no matter that they got diminished in effect. You might rather use a blunted sword or even dagger, then no weapon at all.
BHVR is still clinging to their idea of "completely free builds" with a little restrictions as possible, but they somehow fail to see that this severely limits their design space. Hard caps on regression, gen repair speed etc. would actually improve the game, give them more control about whats happening and open up new venues.
I also think that they shouldn't shy away from limiting or restricting certain perks on specific killers. It would make keeping up a bit more complicated, but again, open up design space. Anyone remember how Awakened Awareness and its lingering effect had to be nerfed, because it gave Nurse pinpoint accuracy, while the perk caused absolutely no problem on Trapper? Why not just flatout prohibit the Nurse from using this perk?
Yeah, Nurse mains might be sad, but there are enough other killers to play, and by limiting ONE killer, a lot of others could thrive and have fun with a better perk.
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I'm not sure myself, you make good points. Although, in my experience I've had survivors fumble with second chance perks compared to groups that bring 2 gen jockeys with commodius/charge addons and a handful of deja vu's with 2 decently good runners.
Obviously taking the killer's attention is a time waster for the survs, but I feel like that's the healthier point of the killer vs survivor dynamic. Long chases rewards more time for the team and so on. With gen speeds getting optimized on top of it, it just exasperates the situation where chases don't need to be very long to get gens done quickly. Combining both of them makes it even worse to face.
Obviously I don't think chases should be indefinite and exploitable with perks, look at what MFT did for awhile, but chases and avoiding the killer should be the bigger skill ceiling than just kitting out gen speeds and having a good runner save your team enough time to pop 3 gens before a down.
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Like i said, SWF can still break gen speed. In theory, a team that uses 4 toolboxes is unbeatable if they make no mistakes. It is arguably survivors strongest strategy. At least in my opinion gen-speed SWF is stronger then Second chance SWF for High-tier killers but many people argue that med-kit is stronger item then toolbox. Overall it is not just med-kit itself, but how you use med-kit that can make it stronger or weaker.
With gen speeds getting optimized on top of it, it just exasperates the situation where chases don't need to be very long to get gens done quickly. Combining both of them makes it even worse to face.
I agree but a lot of player have the opinion that gen progression toolbox isn't that good. You know, med-kit better. I think it is good to have diverse perk and play-styles available but they also kinda need to be balanced in relationship to base game.
Obviously I don't think chases should be indefinite and exploitable with perks, look at what MFT did for awhile, but chases and avoiding the killer should be the bigger skill ceiling than just kitting out gen speeds and having a good runner save your team enough time to pop 3 gens before a down.
They already are exploitable.
Typically how second chance SWF plays is following
Chase 1: You face syringe(3 health-states). They go down under a pallet. A survivor that has 99% sprint burst or background player will threaten the killer. the killer if he picks up gets pallet saved. If he doesn't get picked up in ~25 seconds, the player will unbreakable in the killer face and stun them with a pallet. you have to go on to do 2nd chase. This like 3 minute first chase. You often get a lot of pallet pre-dropping, god pallets, safe pallet etc. etc. in first chase.
3 generator get done. Sometimes 4 gens. Let's call this "Unbreakable+Syringe stage"
You have two choices as killer, you either proxy camp survivor to tunnel or you go chase another survivor. if you chase another survivor, they can save their teammate, heal a survivor in 10.5 seconds with med-kit and hop on a generator. when you down survivor 2, you get same problem. survivor goes under a pallet, if you pick up → pallet save, if no pick up →unbreakable pallet stun. So logically at 1-2 gens, most killer proxy camp tunnel in this situation.
So you decide to tunnel off hook. You win the chase. The survivor obviously has decisive strike but you don't know that so you just pick up them anyway. you get hit by decisive strike, you down them again, hook them, all 5 gens done. you can try to slug them but you won't bleed them out and the spread out generator in all cases are undefendable.
Let's call this phase "Decisive strike phase".
In the end game, with 4 adrenalines, every survivor is fully healed so any injure pressure is completely gone for killer and when 3 survivor are healthy. survivors will attempt to do the bodyblock tech. the tech can be explained as following
- Run next to the hook within 10 meters with 3 survivors but stay a little bit away from killer attack range.
- Attempt to go close. If killer swings, successfully hitting the survivor, Unhook survivor during the attack recovery animation
- Walk in congo line. Injured survivors in #1, #2 position, Healthy survivors create a wall #3, #4. Run to exit gate.
So in summary, you have no early game as killer because slugging exploit+Red syringes. You cannot spread pressure because of med-kit healing. You have no mid-game potencial because of Dead hard/Exhaust perk+Decisive strike. You have no late game potencial because of 4 adrenaline.
VS weaker that are loopable, this gameplay is devastating. Most of weaker killer are vulnerable to bodyblocking and looping. Vs stronger killers, stronger killers are not loopable you can eat threw all second chances and still win. that is where generator efficiency SWF are better in my opinion. you can often play with less second chances when your good at survivor. With more oppressive gen speed, the stronger killer have less time to chew 7 hook-states and win. Your more likely to finish all 5 gens in record time before a high-tier killer successfully tunnels. both gameplay styles has merits with pros and cons.
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Very well put. I assume this is worse off for M1 killers, as I can completely see this scenario being the worst for them as opposed to killers with a reasonable chase power. Unless you're bringing multiple counters to these scenarios like exhaust perks/addons, you can't really compete. And even more if they attempt to weaponize their Decisive Strikes, which hasn't been too problematic in my games as of right now and the ones that do usually end up slugged. I know I've stopped playing a few M1's because of groups like you've described.
I do think these scenarios also need to be adjusted as well while promoting the better aspects of chase and repair times, but as we've both covered there's very exploitable things on both ends and they both compliment each other's playstyles. But whatever changes are made, we have to keep in mind the overbearing aspects that killer does have and whatever survivors lack in terms of map design and perk synergies for both sides.0 -
i just don't play m1 killers. Like take Sadako for example. I don't want to queue into a random Sadako match to play against gen-speed swf's or second chances. the only silver point for Sadako is that you can't bodyblock as easily against her in end game. you pretty much rely on your opponent to make poor plays at loops and bad gen efficiency to win.
these strategies existing are all well and good but don't expect the majority of killer player to play weaker killers that. the player that do play weaker killer into that just hope they don't face swf and it is just casual soloq team with like aura perks and such.
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I've personally kept up well against these kinds of survivors as Sadako, thankfully due to them eventually needing to nab tapes and having their items unusable. Even had one time someone tried to get a flashlight save but forgot they had a tape.
That said, Sadako suffers as an M1 for sure, and with gen speeds as they are she does need heavy assistance from regression and slowdown during the times survivors aren't holding tapes. Another good example for me personally is Hag (except for Mint Rag+Rusty Shackles, hoo boy is that an addon combo) I refuse to play Hag most of the time due to gen speeds and find Corrupt Intervention isn't enough at times.
Part of me thinks killers that rely on M1 should have a different map generation logic than killers with range or strong M2's. But that would be much harder to manage.0
