Gen bug should be a feature of the game.

Its not a good solution. Tunneling should be focused on helping the victim whose being tunneled. Not to actively punish the killer whos just doing his objectice. Also it probably wouldn’t work as intended and surviviors will just off themselves as a viable solution. If you want to punish slugging phrase it more like it will be much harder to kill this survivior rather than, if you kill this survivior, you will be punished.

I do think perks should play a factor though.

Just reminded me of the Samination vids, lol.

While i do know you are joking a bit,

The role is called "killer" but in the lore, that is not the intent or job of the killer. The purpose of the killer is to feed the entity the hope of the survivors. Killing them too quickly ends that.

Hooking over kills is one thing.

Handing over free wins against killers who DO spread hooks is entirely different. Besides, I guarantee SWF will still abuse it by 99'ing a gen, letting the SoloQ die and then popping it to escape. It'd have to be VERY fine tuned toward actually tunneling. And even then, what happens? Someone gets tunneled, they still have a bad time, and the rest get off scott free and even faster.

Sure, but that is a conspicuous action (or if it isn't it should be) and then you lose it, and get deep wound.

In terms of hag, you are basically not part of the physical realm, so you wouldn't trip hag traps by running over them.

Absolutely no. Survivors have already a lot of stuff to counter tunneling... Not to mention that killers should have a similar mechanic if survivors do generators too much efficiently if something like that should ever be added...

Almost if not all interaction with killer powers are not conspicuous actions. That means EMPs, Turrets, the lament configuration, any kind of trap.

The bug should not be implemented as a feature just the way it is (after death one gen gets completed). It would be punishing for any deaths no matter how the killer/the survivors played and be highly abusable.

Though some similar catch-up feature would be appreciated. It would need to be dependent on multiple conditions (how many hooks did killer get in total, was there camping/hook phase lost involved, how many gens are already done, how much time into the match it is, how much gen progress did the survivor killed contribute directly/indirectly through chase).

And where do I take the time from to hook all survivors 3 times? Or do I just don't and lose lol?

If that would be possible a lot more people would do it, but it isn't so you'd fix both at the same time and take a lot of speed out.

The gen bug wouldn't be a bad idea if it only occurs when two survivors are left standing. Still if skillful enough to evade and work on gen you can escape but it is much harder, and the bug could be seen as too overpowered even still. Maybe in this scenario but there is still 4 gens left and like the team was demolished then it could be a thing but regardless I think without the bug the game is alright

Fewer gens are easier to defend, but that's again why I'm confused. If this comes into play at any number from 2-5 gens remaining, I have to defend more gens, regardless if the remaining gens are odd or even.

2 99'd gens at 4 remaining - I mean just camp one gen as soon as I catch on to their strat. I don't understand why this is a herculean task. Am I legally obligated to turn off my brain and not come up with counters?

60s delay - 60s is more than enough time to make use of an intel perk, or just use my eyeballs and ears in a search for another Surv. You don't need to bring the gens to 0, you just need to bring them out of the realm of completion. A basekit 5% regression + starting to regress means that if a Killer runs across the remaining gens, they can find the people camping gens with little to no problem. If they are Distortion+Calm Spirit rat uber-hiders, then they could have coordinated and done that in the first place and won with a 4-out.

Easier to finish 2 gens - I mean you'd have one person found near a 99'd gen, then be on hook (near that gen that they aren't going to risk popping early), and even if the Survs pop the gen across the map, the gen 99'd close to hook can be duo camped easily.

I still don't understand your gen number argument, so I'm just gunna drop it.

Survs free to work other gens if a 99'd gen is camped - Yeah? You can choose to leave or camp and play to what you think gives you the best chance of winning. They hide and Killer camps and searches, Killer wins (assuming the Killer is better than the Survivor at hide and seek, if we are assuming all Survivors win at hide and seek, then all Survs always win). They leave and Killer camps, they win. They leave and Killer leaves, Killer wins. In 2/3 scenarios, the Killer wins, better than the default odds of 60%.

No more free wins with Ultimate Weapon - Ultimate Weapon, Nowhere to Hide, and all these perks would still function and work for this purpose, and perkless, it is a skill fight between Killer and Surv. Again, if we assume the Survivors cannot be found if they don't want to be found, then Survivors would have 100% escape rate from stealth alone, with or without this hypothetical gen change.

How to down someone near a 99'd gen - If they hid, then they give a free hit once found, then once downed, the Killer can travel ~55m safely before the Survivor can wiggle free. I can generally find someone, down them, then hook them within 60s of any given point of a match (unless I'm prepping like Ghosty stalks/Traps, but at this point of the game, preparations are done).

All my counters work as long as the Killer is better than the Survivors. If the Killer was worse than the Survivors, then they could have taken the 4 out anyways, so a sacrificial lamb yielding a 3 out is a net positive for Killer in terms of results. (S/S/S/S net 4S vs K/S/S/S net 2S, becomes a lesser loss for Killer).

As far as old Hatch and Keys, I didn't play against grab game Hatch, but I did play against the (superior) version of Hatch that was deleted after the Mikaela patch. The only flaw of that was when you had a 4k tome, but all 4k tomes/adepts should count 3k+ Hatch for them nowadays to disincentivize bleedouts. I have defended pre-Mikaela Hatch numerous times because it solved both tunneling and 3-genning. Instead we get an 8 regression limit, and whatever other bad ideas they will attempt next, to fix an issue caused from the removal of the 'better for the game Hatch' mechanic that existed before. Hatch counts as a tie, so in MMR, a 3 Hatch escape is a Killer win (K/T/T/T = K), If they could have won without Hatch, then they would have beat the Killer (K/S/S/S = net 2S), so again, net postive results for Killer.

A Survivor being worse than the Killer is always going to be the Survivor being bad. They are bad in comparison to that Killer, have room to learn and improve, and once they do, they are better than the Killer and no longer bad. They may run into another Killer they are already better than before they learned how to improve, but they are still not bad because it is only a comparison against your opposition.

Doubt with M1 Killers - Doubt all you want, if someone is so bad at Killer that they don't even use their power, then your argument has weight, but most matches Killers use their power. Legion has them perma-injured, Ghosty has Exposed for lethality and the reveal noise for intel, Trapper has traps to prevent the best loops or trick Survivors, Clown has his gas, Myers has the smaller TR (which only doesn't work on Autohaven since that realm is bad for stealth in general), Dredge gets Killer Instinct on TP, Singularity can scan with pods (or camp a gen and look at the other one). All of these are M1 Killers that can find or chase much easier with power usage.

Use the bug only when losing - This doesn't magically make the attempt a success, and the level of coordination is far and above what soloq is consistently capable of. The Killer can still outskill the scenario, especially with a 60s delays as I've suggested. It only gives 2 free escapes against a Killer that the Survivor team could have simply gotten a free 4 escapes against. Gens aren't automatically 99'd, and if the Killer waited 89s and never did anything about it, that is their problem.

MMR - Everyone sweating for their winstreaks cares, because those are the rules of the game that determine a win/loss. Skill never enters into the equation, but we assume that if you win, you could consistently juice or end chases. Also Killer could do things about Keys/Hatch. They could bring a Hatch offering, Franklin's Demise, kill the Key holder on an awkward spot for Survivors to pick up the Key, and more.

4k Challenges - Unironically yes. I played against countless Key lobbies, and had no problem other than when attempting 4k challenges. (Adepts for me were actually easier with the old system, because you could 11 hook and let the final Survivor go even if healthy. 4k makes you have to slug for the 4k, or take the ~60/40 of a Hatch fight and risk going next if they win the Hatch fight.)

Bad/Worse:

This is just a matter of us disagreeing on usage/definitions. To me, the loser of a fight is bad in comparison to their opposition until they win, then the original winner is now the loser, and thus bad. You could also use a statistical argument and compare their placement against the total average, or the average of a narrow field instead.

There are also realms of the game, and someone could be a 8/10 in chase, a 5/10 in Macro, and 7/10 in stealth/seeking. If that person went against a 6/10 chase, 6/10 Macro, 8/10 stealth player, I'm going to say the person better at 2/3 categories is good, and the person better at 1/3 categories is bad, even though they both had the same total 20 points to allocate.

60s for a hook:

My statement was the generally I can get the down/hook within 60s. I didn't say every time, just that it is generally possible. There are always exceptions to a rule, but that doesn't invalidate the rule. In this circumstance we are talking about kicking a gen (-5%, seeking someone out for 1-59s (-7.5% roughly on average), and still having time to prevent a double gen pop. That is almost always going to be possible.

I play a higher tempo/lethality game. I spend the first minute stalking as many Survs as possible as Ghosty, then snowballing my victory. If they heal, I have time to re-99 the stalk, and if they don't, I can sneak up against most players since the cape flap is their only warning of my arrival, making Sprint Burst their only saving grace to get them to a window/pallet. I use intel perks to know where and when to go places, and use lethality perks to ensure nothing sketchy happens in chase to take too long for a down. Coup de Grace is arguably the best Ghosty perk (when you play this macro+lethality style), because you get one Coup proc per down (injured or Marked).

Also what typically happens is downs work more like a roller coaster, going quick (30s, 30s), then cranking back up for the next hill (90s), before getting more quick downs (30s, 30s) for an average 42s in this hypothetical. Intel perks ensure that less time is wasted, or the next hill crank is effectively utilized, and lethality perks keeping the downs quick.

Rewarded for losing:

I can understand this perspective, as this would shift a Survivor 0.?% chance of victory to a ~30% chance. I find this a good change, because once Survivors think the game is hopeless, they hide and never touch gens (except to fulfill the gen tap per 10 minutes to avoid a ban). This keeps them playing the game of DBD instead of MGS. They still have a marked decreased chance of victory, from ~40% to ~30%, but it is enough of a chance to keep hope. I'd rather lose 1/100 matches from this than spend 1/10 playing MGS with Survivors.

MMR:

The game uses wins/ties/losses, being Gate/Hatch/Death for Survivor, or Kill/Hatch/Gate for Killer. In the infamous stream detailing MMR, they admitted they don't track any facet of skill, other than hoping people who win more are more skilled. This means some people, like tunneling Blights/Nurses or Distortion+Sole Survivor rats, artificially inflate their MMR above their skill level, getting wins they didn't earn. People may not see MMR, but it doesn't change the fact of them revolving their actions around the MMR conditions for a win. Whether that is intentional or not from the players, it is happening. I have seen far far far far more bleedouts for the 4k since we swapped to MMR (accounting for % of matches).

We assume 'win' = 'good in chase', and 'lose' = 'bad in chase', because that is the system we have. This clearly falls apart when the juicer Alan dies to rescue the baby Sable who corner crouched all game. The skilled player (in this very common scenario) dies, and the unskilled player lives. That's why I say MMR isn't a proper indicator of skill, but is still a proper indicator of a win/loss within a given match for the most part.

This could easily be fixed by making MMR adjustments apply equally to all Survivors at the end of a match, that way the hook trade at the end has no bearing on the juicer Alan's MMR. This would look like (+20, -15, +8, 0[Hatch instead of gate for their tome] with an average +3.25 for all Survs, instead of the +20 on baby Sable and -15 on juicer Alan). This might need something like MMR adjustments to be paused until a daily or hourly basis, and apply all adjustments at some syncing time. (Eg. +5, +5, +5, +3, -2, -5, -5, all added up an applied at midnight [+6 MMR net], with the in-progress game at midnight results counting towards the next day's MMR adjustment batch.)

Increase Killer stress: (Section TLDR: It would be stressful because playing the game is stressful, and playing the game is fun. Playing DBD Hide and Seek isn't fun, but also isn't stressful.)

I mean I thought of a way to not impact my matches meaningfully, other than shifting a boring MGS match, into a match where the Survivors still play. Does that mean a 0 stress match now became stressful, technically yes. Does that also mean that I don't have to patrol gens for 10 minutes recording my gameplay to provide evidence for a report, more importantly yes.

Playing the game in and of itself is stressful, and my changes would only make it so MGS styled gen avoidance is no longer a factor. MGS gamplay isn't 'playing the game' it is playing 'can I get evidence for a report' simulator. I'll admit, when playing against a blatant cheater, I change my wincon to this 'can I get evidence for a report' gameplay, and I have fun with it. I don't have fun when it happens all the time though. This, paired with the hook respawn after 60s, would be a perfect mechanic to prevent the extremes of unfun.

I personally find the hook respawn to be removing an important factor of skill for the Killer, and now my game is made easier because I no longer have to think ahead when hooking people. I didn't oppose the change though because it was a net positive to prevent (some) bleedouts. This (gen bug becoming basekit) would retain the fair nature of both changes, and be net positive, like the hook change.

Current Balance and the potential gen change: (Section TLDR: Kill rates are too high on both ends [IME].)

I would say the game is currently too Killer sided, as my soloq matches are below 35% escape rate, and my Killer matches are above 75% win rate. As far as Hope and Adrenaline, I generally don't find them to be an issue. I most often win at 1-2 gens remaining, because I intentionally delay my first kill as long as possible. I delay the kill for 2 major reasons: to make sure everyone has (the chance of) fun, and to make sure no one gives up to play MGS instead. Once there are 3 Survivors, they pretty much fall into a death spiral with no hope of getting Hope.

Quit focusing on MMR: (Section TLDR: I thought you wanted to talk about it so I continued.)

I mean IIRC, I was merely explaining the win conditions of the game because you took issue with a 3 Hatch escape (with old Keys) being a Killer win. I thought your continued exploration down that path meant you wanted to keep talking about it. I've been focusing on the majority of matches with most of my discussion (as it would be a net positive to discourage early tunneling), while including each section that I've felt I had something to expand upon.