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So Skully just gets Freddy'd huh?

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Comments

  • Tits
    Tits Member Posts: 324

    They might even nerf her more lol if all the people do in the ptb is lie and say shes still terrible to go against they could nerf her even further. But yea its a shame, bought all her cosmetics on launch and since, then she gets hated so much that instead of changing what she does they just adjust things to be slightly different and nerf gen camping. Not sure why they thought that was going to stop the hate but shes go another rework set for 2025. But ill be honest, has there ever been a rework that people were happy with? That made the killer better and more enjoyable for all? Besides maybe billy

  • Ohyakno
    Ohyakno Member Posts: 1,206

    I think this is the biggest issue. BHVR has shown their hand and said "yeah, you can tacitly get killers removed if you hook suicide against them enough".

  • ChaosWam
    ChaosWam Member Posts: 1,842
    edited September 14

    I also despise some of the community celebrating this.

    How do some people not see the problem with doing this? Current SM wasn't busted, no matter how annoyed the community is with her. I even thought she could have some things tuned down myself, but this is too far. And yet, people are acting like this was justified?

    All it does is set a dangerous precedent for deciding what gets changes down the line. Just have enough people complain and it will get nuked, not even fine tuned or adjusted, just nuked. Even if it's not broken or overpowered.

  • mizark3
    mizark3 Member Posts: 2,253

    Like I said, it is avoidable if you grant a free M1 in the open. Same flowchart gameplay as Pyramid Head holding power running up to the window then blocking into M1. Plenty of powers allow for both sides to make an attempt, but the very nature of the drones removes that entirely. The other facet is dodging the Killer's power is typically tied to the Killer's location. You can dodge a hatchet and still be safe from her, dodge a Demo Shred or Wesker Dash and reach a window/pallet during the CD. SM doesn't share that good design. She chases as a powerless M1 Killer, and the drone forcibly impacts the viable loop pathing for either a free M1 or scan into injury/hindered+hit. This is not the same for most Killers, as they either get an alternative looping method entirely, or still offers normal pathing. She is very similar to Artist's flowchart gameplay of 'block path to force open M1 or loop M2 hit', but at least Artist (without a certain add-on) can be mindgamed into forcing the power to miss.

    As a Clown enjoyer, I would argue top end Clown gameplay is flowchart like as well. Preplace Purple at one end and Yellow at the other, get hit (as a great oversimplification). The flowchart is determined from experience or checking out that Clown manifesto. Since most people aren't at that stage, the counterplay of risking another loop/dropping pallet still remains for most matches. SM hits M2 and shuts down an entire loop, particularly effective at jungle gyms/Shack blocking a window and Pallet at the same time. The issue is she doesn't even need to read a manifesto to reach that flow(chart) state, she just uses power normally.

  • jesterkind
    jesterkind Member Posts: 7,832

    There's really not much more to say here other than to point out that her counterplay just works, and it isn't "take a free scan or grant a free M1".

    I know the answer for everyone is "not much", but I have to ask how much experience you have playing against her. If I can reliably dodge drones without giving Merchant free hits, it's just something the average survivor has available as counterplay, because above average I am not.

    The fact of the matter is, if you're at a loop and you're dodging drone beams, there is something between you and Merchant and you are playing around a resource. Confident survivors will walk off Exhaustion in chase with other M1 killers, because they just aren't threatening until they're in lunge range, and if you're denying Merchant scans then she is just an M1 killer.

    You can boil almost every killer down to a flowchart, that doesn't make any of their designs inherently flawed because of it.

  • mizark3
    mizark3 Member Posts: 2,253

    I guess one of the largest problems is we probably don't have the same loops in mind. When I am saying 'you get scanned no matter what', I'm thinking Killer Shack or an LT wall or the 2 main pallet+window basic jungle gyms. In each of those loops, the scan is unavoidable if the SM put the drone in the right spot (which can be done on arrival, and isn't even a far off location that needs a setup in advance). The Killer is always going to be close enough that a scan dodge will force an M1 in its place, barring a 10m headstart and a pre-placed Drone.

    Lets take the LT wall. The Drone is freshly set up in the center, and the Killer is following from behind to the outside of the T half. The Survivor has to take a scan hit to vault the T window in time. Alternatively you run wide to avoid the scan, and go to the outside of the L. Well now the SM is close enough to get an M1 before the Surv can even get around to the other side of the L to force the 50-50. Knowing the scans are forced, the SM now can play to get the fastest scans, since the suboptimal play on Survivor gives them a hit regardless.

    Most drone locations cover the midpoint of the 2 resources (pallet and window most commonly), making it simply not possible to avoid both a scan AND hit in chase.

    Also to break down what I mean by pejoratively using 'flowchart', I mean any circumstance where there is a clear objective best solution, and 50-50s don't exist. Many Killer powers introduce their own 50-50s (or adjust the basic 50-50 for more lethality or faster rate of 50-50s), for example Huntress. Huntress can throw a Hatchet, or disrespect the pallet. The Survivor can greed the pallet, or throw the pallet. Huntress wins throwing the Hatchet when the Survivor throws the pallet, and also wins when she disrespects the pallet and the Survivor greeds the pallet. When the opposite Survivor choice is taken for those scenarios, the Survivor wins instead. 50-50s, without a flowchart. Pyramid Head/Nemesis M2 holding up to a window block is the boring flowchart gameplay. Once animation locked, use power, otherwise block window. Flowchart for free hit. SM falls into this flowchart, not the interesting Huntress 50-50 gameplay. Bubba can also be put in the place of Huntress for interesting 50-50 choices, but he benefits from the lethality of his 50-50s.

  • jesterkind
    jesterkind Member Posts: 7,832

    I'll grant you TL walls, because she is quite good at making those unsafe- it's still something the survivor can try to play, but if the drone's placed right and you get unlucky with rotation timings, sure. You're probably getting scanned. Sometimes that'll happen, most killers have particular loops that they're good at making unsafe, and separately sometimes you're best off letting the killer get something so they can't get their best case scenario rolling. Most killers aren't ALWAYS avoidable, just USUALLY avoidable.

    Shack is a good example of how much variability and decisionmaking is present in her power, though. On the survivor side, leveraging line of sight blocking is significantly easier at a structure like shack, and it's a big enough structure that you do still have time to crouch/stop unless the killer's right on you (at which point it doesn't matter, they're getting a hit anyway). This is tripled if shack has a generator in it, but I think it's fair to assume it doesn't for this hypothetical.

    On the killer side, though, shack represents an interesting gamble, because Merchant's beams follow similar rules to Deathslinger's harpoon in what they can shine through. The survivor has a lot of line of sight blocking available, but you have small gaps you can snipe through if you're on point with your placement and timing, or you can try to play it more safe and use manual rotation or reasonable timing to force survivors to run into the beam as they round a corner. Shack is a tile that Merchant can use her power at, but it's also a tile that survivors get a lot of options to counter that power at too.

    The same general logic applies to most jungle gyms, though those tend to have fewer gaps for Merchant to snipe through depending on the map. Line of sight blocking gets stronger, and they're generally big enough that you have time to crouch/stop if you have to, but you're at slightly more risk of running into a reversed beam since you can't see them as easily. Tradeoffs, with ups and downs for both sides.

    The tiles that you just flat out can't play against Skull Merchant are generally tiny loops with an unsafe pallet and very low walls, like some of the Ormond snow pile type loops. I don't consider this a flaw because there are a lot of killers that excel at those loops, even more than Merchant does- they're just not very good loops in general.

    I just don't see Merchant's power as a negative flowchart because there are too many options at most tiles in the game. I could see people subjectively finding it unfun, or even finding it repetitive, but a simple flowchart it isn't. Between leveraging LoS, crouching/stopping to avoid a scan, tactically taking one scan to make better distance, and taking an M1 to avoid a claw trap, survivors have a lot of micro decisions to make about what the best option is at any given tile, AND the power requires different options at different tiles. That's a fair amount of variability.

  • mizark3
    mizark3 Member Posts: 2,253

    At this point we are just circling around 'agree to disagree'. I would draw a diagram, that the issue happens with all basic jungle gyms. But yeah, we just are speaking past each other, so agree to disagree.