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Pain Res should deactivate when a survivor dies
It’s way too easy for a top tier killer to hard tunnel a survivor out of the game, then still have Pain Resonance to pretty much guarantee them the win
Deactivating on a survivor death would encourage spreading out hooks more and punish players who decide to hard tunnel at 4/5 gens
Comments
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exhaustion perks should deactivate when a gen is completed
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I think there’s a bit of a difference between one gen being completed and a survivor being hard tunnelled out of the game right off the bat
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1/4 of main objective versus 1/5, sure
killer perks are also woth 4x as much though so it evens out
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Would be fine if every hook was scourge hook in the match.
The way it is now, you may get a survivor killed without having the perk activated at all if you are unlucky with scourge hook distribution.
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But then surely you don’t need Pain Res anymore then? If someone’s gone out of their way to kill a survivor when only 1 or 2 gens have been completed then the match is already tipped in their favour. 3v1 with 3 or 4 gens still to go AND Pain Res still available seems a bit unfair, and further encourages a hard tunnelling play style
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I’m not saying it gets value from tunnelling, I know it’s only once per survivor. I’m saying the killer can hard tunnel a survivor out of the game at the start, then still have Pain Resonance to use when the game’s now 3v1 at 4/5 gens. Seems a bit unfair. Whereas if it deactivated on a survivor death then the killer might be encouraged to tunnel a bit less and further spread out hooks before they finally kill someone
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bring % back to 25 and I wouldn't mind
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Hard agree.
Having something as potent as Pain Res available after tunnelling someone out is massive, demoralising overkill. You do not need it if you've tunnelled someone out, that's why you'd tunnel someone out.
I'd probably slap this deactivation on a few other perks as well, myself.
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I never thought about that before but that’s a great idea. I would make it to each time a Gen pops all survivors are exhausted for 90 seconds.
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I understand where you're coming from but I'd rather tunneling itself was directly addressed instead of nerfing perks to indirectly nerf tunneling. If this was implemented the hard tunnelers would continue tunneling, they would simply not bring Pain Res and choose other perks instead.
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The thing is, that itself is a benefit, because it makes the game less hopeless after the killer tunnels someone out.
While tunnelling itself definitely needs addressing, a quick change that'll stop the worst outcomes of tunnelling would still be a good idea.
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Agreed, and Grim Embrace should as well
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10 seconds of gen blocking really that scary to you ?
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Yep, yep, only killers should be punished for forcing their objectives, but if match ends under 3 minutes, because survivors just picked a bunch of stupid things, it's completely fine, we have a million excuses for that, because "oh you don't see it every game".
I mean, we can have a game, where killer forced to 8 hooks before kill right now, I don't mind, but literally same people here will be crying that game is unplayable and chases are instant without even understanding they asked for this. Go for it, I will be happy to watch this comedy-drama serial.4 -
No, but you shouldn't get to block all the gens for 40 seconds after hard tunneling someone.
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There is no reason to punish killer for performing better than expected, right?
If killer decided to tunnel someone out and managed to do that, disabling the perk that did nothing here makes no sense. It won't make the said killer change the playstyle because the ultimate goal of the killer is to sacrifice as many survivors as possible.
I understand that it may not be fun when someone gets tunneled out that early but it's equally not fun when the first down or hook can happen when 2 or 3 gens are popped already. The lack of ''native equalizer'' in the game is an issue of it's own, no need to introduce punishments for one side or another based on their performance in a form of perk disable.
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no
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Yep, the game stands to benefit a lot from this concept of making strong killer perks that actively disincentivize camping and tunnelling, spreading the pressure instead of concentrating on getting one survivor out as quickly as possible. And the "this perk is disabled (or significantly weakened) once a survivor dies" clause makes that very easy and obvious.
The only thing is that the respective perks then need to be quite a bit stronger than they are now, to make up for that. Some simple examples:
Pain Res could be 40% (flat) of a gen, but disabled once a survivor dies.
Pop could be 40% (current) of a gen, but disabled once a survivor dies.
Ruin could be 200% base regression, but disabled once a survivor dies.
Deadlock could block gens for 50 seconds, but be disabled once a survivor dies.
Grim Embrace could block gens for 20 seconds for every fresh hook, and 60 seconds on the last fresh hook, but be disabled once a survivor dies.
If the killer cannot camp and tunnel one survivor out, these fairly crazy numbers would actually be totally fine.
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This is ridiculous.
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Also not like they still are the top picked perks for a lot.
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A scourge hook should become a normal hook after a survivor dies on it
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I don't know. Even without camping and tunneling those numbers seem crazy high to me.
I guess I wouldn't mind if slowdown perks were buffed a bit if tunneling and camping got hard nerfed, but not by that much in my opinion.
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I honestly think they should've went this route instead of lowering the damage to 20%.
Should be invoked on Grim too.
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Thing is that a killer not only can't camp/tunnel someone out from the get-go if they want to get good value from these, but they even encourage killers to go out of their way not to kill someone too early. They could have gotten 2-3 fresh hooks already, hook someone for the second time, and then refrain from tunnelling that person out because they still want to get that last Pain Res/Grim Embrace fresh hook, or more procs from things like Pop or Deadlock. And there will of course also be cases where a killer can't realistically avoid killing someone at some point, and be it 6+ hook stages deep into a match, in which cases the perks also deactivate. So considering that, I think the numbers are fine.
Thanatophobia being 10% per injured or hooked (not slugged) survivor, but disabled once a survivor dies; Barbecue gaining tokens for fresh hooks again, granting some extra movement speed for every token, but losing a token whenever a survivor goes second stage (also showing only the auras of survivors that haven't been hooked yet, without a range limit, until everyone has been hooked, then reverting to its normal behaviour); Call Of Brine and Overcharge increasing kick regression by a lot more again, but reverting to normal regression once a survivor dies; Decisive Strike activating up to two times; …
But yes, I do think base-game rebalancing of camping/tunnelling is also in order, not only perk-based "bandaids" or incentives. Some really easy changes that would already go a long way to change the dynamics/economics of camping and tunnelling would be these:
Unhook Endurance becomes unhook invincibility, extending the unhook i-frames that already exist to the 10-second window. That way hitting a survivor off hook would not instantly get around crucial anti-tunnelling tools like Off The Record and Dead Hard (or more unconventional ones too, like Second Wind and Resurgence), and it would also be impossible for killers to two-tap or "melt through" unhook protection as the invincibility as opposed to Endurance does not wear off: unless you get grabbed, you simply cannot go down in those 10 seconds. As a trade-off, the unhooked survivor would lose collision with other players during these 10 seconds, so as to not be able to offensively leverage their invincibility.
The anti-facecamp mechanic's progress bar is shown to all survivors. This would not only help survivors without communication actually be able to have someone unhook themselves sometimes, but it would also act as a very rudimentary implementation of the "basekit Kindred" idea, because the behaviour of the AFC meter allows some rough inferences as to what may be going on around the hook. The progress also should not be halted if the only other survivor(s) around the hooked is in the dying state.
Things like hiding the aura and hook life bar of a hooked survivor from the killer and removing the unhook explosion notification are thinkable. These things are seen as completely natural because they've always been there, but they are not beyond being questioned, all they really do is encourage and make it easier for killers to camp and tunnel.
The aura of the most-recently unhooked survivor could be shown to all other survivors, until they are healthy or someone else has been unhooked.
Really rather moderate, simple-to-understand and easy-to-implement changes that would already do a lot to improve things. Much more ambitious and radical changes are feasible of course (such as for instance removing hook timers entirely), but I wouldn't even want to change DbD's general gameflow too much and consider camping and tunnelling to be integral part of its appeal.
Of course, these moderate nerfs to camping and tunnelling should go hand-in-hand with moderate buffs to other aspects of killer gameplay, and not only various perks but also aspects of the base game and specific killers. Things like showing per-survivor hook stages to killers (which would also help with making sure you don't accidentally kill someone and lose some perk due to it), increasing pick-up and carrying speeds, base gen regression (1/3rd of a charge per second instead of 1/4th), the ability to cancel breaking and vaulting interactions (up to a certain point, like 50% into the animation) in order to fake out survivors, spawning all survivors together by default, or hell, Corrupt Intervention basekit. Even NOED basekit (albeit with a totem counter for survivors) would be feasible, although more so something as compensation for heavier-handed camp/tunnel nerfs. Lots of simple possible ideas, and lots more for killer-specific buffs too of course.
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the match should be deactivated when a gen is completed
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I think it would be healthy for the game if a lot of the most effective slowdown perks either deactivated or diminished after a survivor is eliminated.
Slowdown is ultimately only necessary when the number of unoccupied survivors outnumber the killer. E.g. you have a survivor in chase and three on gens you're outnumbered, but if you eliminate a survivor and have one in chase and one on hook, you're even or in credit as the last survivor now has to make a save.
After all pressuring survivors off gens is the best form of slowdown you can get, better than any perk.
I'm not too sure Pain Res in It's current form is best suited to scaling with survivors though. It already only activates once per survivor so it's a bit of a high value high stakes perk to use as it is. Maybe if it proced 10% regression on every hook like it used to then it could work, that way the killer would be actively rewarded for not tunneling. As it is, being deactivated on sacrifice could end up making it a wasted perk slot regardless of if you tunnel if you don't manage to make your first few hooks on scourge hooks.
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