Comparing camping/tunneling to doing gens

Poweas

@Orion said:

@Poweas said:

@Arroz said:

@Master said:

@Poweas said:
Honestly, camping isn't all that bad. Tunnelling is the problem. And the logic some people on this forum have said baffles me. One time someone said to me when a killer breaks a gen and you go back on it that's 'tunnelling a gen'. The equivalent to tunnelling is teabagging. Looping and camping are part of the game

Just like tunneling is part of the game.
Face it, its simply the time efficient solution to focus down on one survivor.

Tbagging has no gameplay impact btw, its just toxic

Decisive strike, adrenaline, insta heals are part of the game. Face it.

Oof that one was a good one. Don't forget Self care. Even though it's weak af, killers still think it needs a desperate nerf.

It's so weak, it's only the most used perk on either side, and has been since the game's release.

Almost half a gens time to heal yourself. It's why genrush is so prevalent right now, because it got nerfed. That's just the truth. It might be overused as hell still but it's not efficient.

MegaWaffle

@fluffybunny said:
Do they think generators can run and therefore be tunneled? Do they think generators are secretly players, too?

First off much like my refrigerator generators do run and secondly after seeing this I'm pretty sure generators are characters.

Kurisataru

People in this game confuse me sometimes Fluff. A killer once told me that he ragequits whenever survivors stand by palettes and loop them because they're not playing the game the way they're supposed to. Which I think he meant. "They're not letting me kill them."
So I imagine these survivors that say "gen tunnelling" mean "Why won't this killer let us 100% this generator we are almost done with? They're not playing the game the way it's meant to be played, which is letting us open the escape route."

Arroz

@Poweas said:

@Orion said:

@Poweas said:

@Arroz said:

@Master said:

@Poweas said:
Honestly, camping isn't all that bad. Tunnelling is the problem. And the logic some people on this forum have said baffles me. One time someone said to me when a killer breaks a gen and you go back on it that's 'tunnelling a gen'. The equivalent to tunnelling is teabagging. Looping and camping are part of the game

Just like tunneling is part of the game.
Face it, its simply the time efficient solution to focus down on one survivor.

Tbagging has no gameplay impact btw, its just toxic

Decisive strike, adrenaline, insta heals are part of the game. Face it.

Oof that one was a good one. Don't forget Self care. Even though it's weak af, killers still think it needs a desperate nerf.

It's so weak, it's only the most used perk on either side, and has been since the game's release.

Almost half a gens time to heal yourself. It's why genrush is so prevalent right now, because it got nerfed. That's just the truth. It might be overused as hell still but it's not efficient.

Agree, and I still see post about he got genrushed and inmediately come to the forum and cry about how he suck.

Poweas

@Arroz said:

@Poweas said:

@Orion said:

@Poweas said:

@Arroz said:

@Master said:

@Poweas said:
Honestly, camping isn't all that bad. Tunnelling is the problem. And the logic some people on this forum have said baffles me. One time someone said to me when a killer breaks a gen and you go back on it that's 'tunnelling a gen'. The equivalent to tunnelling is teabagging. Looping and camping are part of the game

Just like tunneling is part of the game.
Face it, its simply the time efficient solution to focus down on one survivor.

Tbagging has no gameplay impact btw, its just toxic

Decisive strike, adrenaline, insta heals are part of the game. Face it.

Oof that one was a good one. Don't forget Self care. Even though it's weak af, killers still think it needs a desperate nerf.

It's so weak, it's only the most used perk on either side, and has been since the game's release.

Almost half a gens time to heal yourself. It's why genrush is so prevalent right now, because it got nerfed. That's just the truth. It might be overused as hell still but it's not efficient.

Agree, and I still see post about he got genrushed and inmediately come to the forum and cry about how he suck.

Finally, someone who thinks similarly to me and sees Self care as weak.

Poweas

@MegaWaffle said:

@fluffybunny said:
Do they think generators can run and therefore be tunneled? Do they think generators are secretly players, too?

First off much like my refrigerator generators do run and secondly after seeing this I'm pretty sure generators are characters.

I love that. That is amazing.

Arroz

@Poweas said:

@MegaWaffle said:

@fluffybunny said:
Do they think generators can run and therefore be tunneled? Do they think generators are secretly players, too?

First off much like my refrigerator generators do run and secondly after seeing this I'm pretty sure generators are characters.

I love that. That is amazing.

@Poweas said:

@MegaWaffle said:

@fluffybunny said:
Do they think generators can run and therefore be tunneled? Do they think generators are secretly players, too?

First off much like my refrigerator generators do run and secondly after seeing this I'm pretty sure generators are characters.

I love that. That is amazing.

But where is daddy quentin >:c?

fluffybunny

@MegaWaffle said:

@fluffybunny said:
Do they think generators can run and therefore be tunneled? Do they think generators are secretly players, too?

First off much like my refrigerator generators do run and secondly after seeing this I'm pretty sure generators are characters.

Oh! I'd like to be a generator, then. Then I can run away from survivors and killers.
The graphic is awesome btw. Did you make it?

fluffybunny

@Kurisataru said:
People in this game confuse me sometimes Fluff. A killer once told me that he ragequits whenever survivors stand by palettes and loop them because they're not playing the game the way they're supposed to. Which I think he meant. "They're not letting me kill them."
So I imagine these survivors that say "gen tunnelling" mean "Why won't this killer let us 100% this generator we are almost done with? They're not playing the game the way it's meant to be played, which is letting us open the escape route."

Killers and survivors alike make excuses for whatever they do. People are quite silly about that sort of stuff. Most of what I've seen, it's killers saying "gen tunneling" and they compare it to tunneling survivors. Tunneling gens sounds really funny, though. Gen rushing is something that happens because of a lack of pressure.

Blueberry

@fluffybunny said:

@Blueberry said:

@Poweas said:
Honestly, camping isn't all that bad. Tunnelling is the problem. And the logic some people on this forum have said baffles me. One time someone said to me when a killer breaks a gen and you go back on it that's 'tunnelling a gen'. The equivalent to tunnelling is teabagging. Looping and camping are part of the game

Tunneling is not equivalent to teabagging whatsoever.

Tunneling is eliminating 1 person from the game to increase your chances of winning and LITERALLY doing your objective.

Teabagging has absolutely nothing to do with the survivors objective, it is SOLELY to taunt the killer and try to make him mad.

I don't see how you could possibly make this comparison.

If we're talking in a general sense, survivor's objective would be to get out and if they're a stronger runner than most of their team, it would benefit them to annoy the killer and get the killer on them by teabagging and so on. As I said, I would compare it more to camping and tunneling more to looping. Both occur while interacting with your opponent, though.

That is quite a stretch to try and make that fit the narrative.

MegaWaffle

@fluffybunny

No I didn't make it. I only saw this image maybe a month ago. Not sure how old it is.

GrootDude

I have no problem with the killer camping/tunneling, just means he is chasing me longer and my team can do gens. I myself T-bag and loop so I want the killer to chase me. Doing this usually waste the killers time and they dedicate to me the whole game (sometimes giving up at end-game). But I guess my point is that for me the chases are enjoyable for me.

artist

u really just said compare tunneling to trying to survive lol

fluffybunny

@artist said:
u really just said compare tunneling to trying to survive lol

Both are trying to win in a sense and both involve the other player.

artist

fluffybunny said:

@artist said:
u really just said compare tunneling to trying to survive lol

Both are trying to win in a sense and both involve the other player.

if you consider 1-2k's winning sure. rarely see someone tunneled and the killer wins in the end.

Raccoon

artist said:

fluffybunny said:

@artist said:
u really just said compare tunneling to trying to survive lol

Both are trying to win in a sense and both involve the other player.

if you consider 1-2k's winning sure. rarely see someone tunneled and the killer wins in the end.

If they rarely win by doing the most effective strategy, they're straight up bad. 

PiiFree

@fluffybunny said:
Once again, gen rushing is due to pressure being misplaced and isn't the survivor's active choice. Survivors don't control whether they gen rush or not. I mean they could jump off the generators to wander around the map, but that would be like killers checking areas with no gens with no indication anyone is over there. Looping is also one of the only options survivors have in a chase if they don't want to get downed and when playing solo and sometimes in SWF (in a group of two, for instance), your first hook is often your last. Not always because you're camped, but also because the other survivors don't want to go for the save or wait too long to come grab you 'cause they're all thinking someone else is going for you. Either survivors loop, try to shake off the killer or run to a safer area. They don't have many options in a chase.

I don't think so, no.

Gen rushing is a way of playing the game, irrelevant to the Killers playstyle. A killer can always only pressure ONE generator at a time. If 4 Survivors work on that ONE gen, then yes - the Killer just applied pressure but only because Survivors play in the most inefficient way possible.

If Survivors focus on repairing gens (gen rush), they will spread and repair the gens individually, which means the Killer has absolutely no way to stop more than 1 gen from being repaired at a time. It's all about the survivors playstyles and priorities at that point.

I agree that looping is "playing Survivor the most efficient way" by forcing the Killers to waste as much time as possible.

Now, read the next parts very carefully: Survivors playstyles revolve around playing in the most efficient way possible, that's why they repair gens unless forced to do otherwise. That's why they always loop when they get the chance to do so. It's just a given thing in Rank 1. 99% of the Survivors loop by default because it's the most efficient thing they can do during a chase.

Here comes the really important part survivors need to understand: Dealing with a looper is not really fun for the Killer, it can be very frustrating - especially in combination with gen rushers. This is Rank 1 play in a nutshell. Survivors by default use playstyles that they know are frustrating to deal with as Killer, but they still expect the Killers to NOT tunnel or camp even though THEY are shamelessly using frowned-upon playstyles against Killers BY DEFAUL.

Now comes my personal experience and opinon, being a "constant" rank 1 player on both sides:

Survivors DO NOT care about the Killers fun. Killers are fully aware of that and expect frustrating playstyles they have to deal with.

As a result, Killers DO NOT care about the Survivors fun either. However, Survivors seem to be surprised about that for some reason, even though they give Killers absolutely no reason to care about their fun.

I always try to adjust my playstyle depending on the efficiency of the opposite side. If Survivors get Ruin & 2 gens done before I get my first hook due to looping, I will play in a VERY annoying way because at that point the Survivors - from my perspective - do not care about my fun at all.

If a Killer camps and tunnels before we even finished a gen, I will gen rush and loop like crazy because that Killer obviously doesn't care about our fun.

This is a very important thing players have to consider; EVERY action they do leads to counter-reactions from the opposite side. Every single one. You pop 3 gens within 10 seconds? You can bet your anus I will tunnel and slug until the last one lays to rest. You try to tunnel me when we're still at 5 gens & ruin? I will loop you for 5 gens.

My personal observation is that most Survivors will shamelessly loop and gen rush, regardless of my playstyle which is why I mostly also shamelessly tunnel or slug. The result? I have like 500 insulting comments on my profile because apparently I am the toxic Killer surrounded by always friendly & nice survivors.

fluffybunny

@PiiFree said:

@fluffybunny said:
Once again, gen rushing is due to pressure being misplaced and isn't the survivor's active choice. Survivors don't control whether they gen rush or not. I mean they could jump off the generators to wander around the map, but that would be like killers checking areas with no gens with no indication anyone is over there. Looping is also one of the only options survivors have in a chase if they don't want to get downed and when playing solo and sometimes in SWF (in a group of two, for instance), your first hook is often your last. Not always because you're camped, but also because the other survivors don't want to go for the save or wait too long to come grab you 'cause they're all thinking someone else is going for you. Either survivors loop, try to shake off the killer or run to a safer area. They don't have many options in a chase.

I don't think so, no.

Gen rushing is a way of playing the game, irrelevant to the Killers playstyle. A killer can always only pressure ONE generator at a time. If 4 Survivors work on that ONE gen, then yes - the Killer just applied pressure but only because Survivors play in the most inefficient way possible.

If Survivors focus on repairing gens (gen rush), they will spread and repair the gens individually, which means the Killer has absolutely no way to stop more than 1 gen from being repaired at a time. It's all about the survivors playstyles and priorities at that point.

I agree that looping is "playing Survivor the most efficient way" by forcing the Killers to waste as much time as possible.

Now, read the next parts very carefully: Survivors playstyles revolve around playing in the most efficient way possible, that's why they repair gens unless forced to do otherwise. That's why they always loop when they get the chance to do so. It's just a given thing in Rank 1. 99% of the Survivors loop by default because it's the most efficient thing they can do during a chase.

Here comes the really important part survivors need to understand: Dealing with a looper is not really fun for the Killer, it can be very frustrating - especially in combination with gen rushers. This is Rank 1 play in a nutshell. Survivors by default use playstyles that they know are frustrating to deal with as Killer, but they still expect the Killers to NOT tunnel or camp even though THEY are shamelessly using frowned-upon playstyles against Killers BY DEFAUL.

Now comes my personal experience and opinon, being a "constant" rank 1 player on both sides:

Survivors DO NOT care about the Killers fun. Killers are fully aware of that and expect frustrating playstyles they have to deal with.

As a result, Killers DO NOT care about the Survivors fun either. However, Survivors seem to be surprised about that for some reason, even though they give Killers absolutely no reason to care about their fun.

I always try to adjust my playstyle depending on the efficiency of the opposite side. If Survivors get Ruin & 2 gens done before I get my first hook due to looping, I will play in a VERY annoying way because at that point the Survivors - from my perspective - do not care about my fun at all.

If a Killer camps and tunnels before we even finished a gen, I will gen rush and loop like crazy because that Killer obviously doesn't care about our fun.

This is a very important thing players have to consider; EVERY action they do leads to counter-reactions from the opposite side. Every single one. You pop 3 gens within 10 seconds? You can bet your anus I will tunnel and slug until the last one lays to rest. You try to tunnel me when we're still at 5 gens & ruin? I will loop you for 5 gens.

My personal observation is that most Survivors will shamelessly loop and gen rush, regardless of my playstyle which is why I mostly also shamelessly tunnel or slug. The result? I have like 500 insulting comments on my profile because apparently I am the toxic Killer surrounded by always friendly & nice survivors.

If you tunnel one person, pressure is on one person. Gen rushing is a thing often because of tunneling the survivor off of the hook and camping the survivor. If you go for a different person, that gives one person going for the save, one person on the hook, one person being chased, and one person on the gen. If you hang out by the hooked survivor, you typically have one person going for the save in an ideal situation. Survivors often make mistakes, especially in solo. Multiple people will attempt to go for the hook when only one person is really needed and that wastes a lot of time.

Looping strong spots and taking the killer around is unpleasant, like tunneling. A lot of people choose not to loop like they choose not to teabag. It's one of the ways to shake off the killer, though, and many killers camp and tunnel. It's a two way street, dude. Saying "survivors don't care about the killer's fun" is a generalization. When I play survivor, I care if the killer has fun, too.

I will say sometimes efficient play is knowing when to get off the designated looper and go after one of the weaker gen jokey, though. You can still get the time waster out of their element later. Survivors can be really nasty, though. I've experienced it, too, as I'm someone who stands up for killers when they're being unfairly accused of something or calls out people when they do something crappy like DC for no reason. I'm not one to like DS, either, as generally the players are really weak despite being in high rank because most killers will avoid them.

PiiFree

@fluffybunny said:
If you tunnel one person, pressure is on one person. Gen rushing is a thing often because of tunneling the survivor off of the hook and camping the survivor. If you go for a different person, that gives one person going for the save, one person on the hook, one person being chased, and one person on the gen. If you hang out by the hooked survivor, you typically have one person going for the save in an ideal situation. Survivors often make mistakes, especially in solo. Multiple people will attempt to go for the hook when only one person is really needed and that wastes a lot of time.

Looping strong spots and taking the killer around is unpleasant, like tunneling. A lot of people choose not to loop like they choose not to teabag. It's one of the ways to shake off the killer, though, and many killers camp and tunnel. It's a two way street, dude. Saying "survivors don't care about the killer's fun" is a generalization. When I play survivor, I care if the killer has fun, too.

I will say sometimes efficient play is knowing when to get off the designated looper and go after one of the weaker gen jokey, though. You can still get the time waster out of their element later. Survivors can be really nasty, though. I've experienced it, too, as I'm someone who stands up for killers when they're being unfairly accused of something or calls out people when they do something crappy like DC for no reason. I'm not one to like DS, either, as generally the players are really weak despite being in high rank because most killers will avoid them.

As I said, I can only speak from my experience after roughly 2000 hours. I estimate that 99% of the Survivors in Rank 1 will loop. I can't remember the last time I saw a Survivor prematurely drop a pallet when they actually could've run around it 2 more times. If they can loop it, they will loop it. Same goes for windows.

With most Killers you have to chase a Survivor to down them, so you have to deal with looping sooner or later. That's the first initiator for toxicity in the match, you loop a Killer before even giving them the chance to play a "fair" match. Maybe they wouldn't tunnel or camp but because you decide to loop, you made them tunnel & camp?

Again, my experience as Rank 1 Killer and Survivor is that most if not all Survivors will loop by default, the Killers playstyle is irrelevant. Why? Why do Survivors loop (and therefore ruin the fun for Killers) and still expect Killers to care about their fun? That's the one question I want Survivor mains to answer.

Maybe you're one of those 1% of Survivors that don't loop even though they could, but you're a rarity then.

E: And that whole thing with "not pressuring gens" is bullshit. You can only chase one Survivor at a time and if you happen to play against 4 good loopers, you'll just find yourself running from one looper to another without getting anything done. You can only pressure survivors by hooking them, which requires you to go through the looping before.

fluffybunny

@PiiFree said:

@fluffybunny said:
If you tunnel one person, pressure is on one person. Gen rushing is a thing often because of tunneling the survivor off of the hook and camping the survivor. If you go for a different person, that gives one person going for the save, one person on the hook, one person being chased, and one person on the gen. If you hang out by the hooked survivor, you typically have one person going for the save in an ideal situation. Survivors often make mistakes, especially in solo. Multiple people will attempt to go for the hook when only one person is really needed and that wastes a lot of time.

Looping strong spots and taking the killer around is unpleasant, like tunneling. A lot of people choose not to loop like they choose not to teabag. It's one of the ways to shake off the killer, though, and many killers camp and tunnel. It's a two way street, dude. Saying "survivors don't care about the killer's fun" is a generalization. When I play survivor, I care if the killer has fun, too.

I will say sometimes efficient play is knowing when to get off the designated looper and go after one of the weaker gen jokey, though. You can still get the time waster out of their element later. Survivors can be really nasty, though. I've experienced it, too, as I'm someone who stands up for killers when they're being unfairly accused of something or calls out people when they do something crappy like DC for no reason. I'm not one to like DS, either, as generally the players are really weak despite being in high rank because most killers will avoid them.

As I said, I can only speak from my experience after roughly 2000 hours. I estimate that 99% of the Survivors in Rank 1 will loop. I can't remember the last time I saw a Survivor prematurely drop a pallet when they actually could've run around it 2 more times. If they can loop it, they will loop it. Same goes for windows.

With most Killers you have to chase a Survivor to down them, so you have to deal with looping sooner or later. That's the first initiator for toxicity in the match, you loop a Killer before even giving them the chance to play a "fair" match. Maybe they wouldn't tunnel or camp but because you decide to loop, you made them tunnel & camp?

Again, my experience as Rank 1 Killer and Survivor is that most if not all Survivors will loop by default, the Killers playstyle is irrelevant. Why? Why do Survivors loop (and therefore ruin the fun for Killers) and still expect Killers to care about their fun? That's the one question I want Survivor mains to answer.

Maybe you're one of those 1% of Survivors that don't loop even though they could, but you're a rarity then.

E: And that whole thing with "not pressuring gens" is bullshit. You can only chase one Survivor at a time and if you happen to play against 4 good loopers, you'll just find yourself running from one looper to another without getting anything done. You can only pressure survivors by hooking them, which requires you to go through the looping before.

Playing in the high ranks, I've seen people both jump into lockers when it was too late to block BBQ (and get grabbed out due to that) and people throw down pallets at a whim. I try to save pallets as most everyone I watch says it's a better idea so that no area is necessarily a dead zone, but I mess up half the time. I had a game where I fast vaulted over a pallet over and over 'cause I panicked (was trying to insta-heal someone on the ground and they moved, so I fast vaulted the pallet instead... they need to change it back to shift. It's so hard to heal people without them fidgeting). Everyone has their potato moments. It's just important to capitalize on the potato, whether than feeding into the good loops, etc.

I've never played killer at a higher rank, though, so I wouldn't be able to guess the amount of 4 man SWF you come across that all just gen rush and run you around, though. I only know my experience as someone who generally solos. When I do play with friends, we get tunneled and camped for playing together. I don't think that should be the reaction to that, but it's whatever.

What exactly is fun about killer if the chase isn't fun, though...? That's all the killer has, really, and I have fun in chases. It's about knowing when to dip and when to commit. Even the really good killer streamers say that, too.

I honestly don't think it's as bad as you're making it out to be. They nerfed infinites and took away the teleporting to the pallet thing (rightly so). They're also removed so many of the pallets. You say you've been playing for a long time, so you should know how much of an improvement they've made for killers, just to justify camping and tunneling on a whim 'cause the survivor might loop (which is easily punished: Don't respect pallets). I don't think camping and tunneling is always unreasonable. To punish poor behavior (teabagging/cheating) or because the doors are open is fine in my opinion.

I'm sorry, but it isn't bullshit. You shouldn't be so narrow minded while approaching a discussion. It isn't good for communication to be so closed off to an opposing point of view. You're likely not running into a team where everyone is really good at looping. Even if they are, it's highly possible they will go to a dead zone if you switch chases. I've had games where the killer chased me and I ran to a dead zone. I've also had many games where the killer found an easy down. Not everyone in the game is going to be amazing always. Everyone is bound to make mistakes and if they're not, come back to them later. It might throw them off.

PiiFree

@fluffybunny said:

@PiiFree said:

@fluffybunny said:
If you tunnel one person, pressure is on one person. Gen rushing is a thing often because of tunneling the survivor off of the hook and camping the survivor. If you go for a different person, that gives one person going for the save, one person on the hook, one person being chased, and one person on the gen. If you hang out by the hooked survivor, you typically have one person going for the save in an ideal situation. Survivors often make mistakes, especially in solo. Multiple people will attempt to go for the hook when only one person is really needed and that wastes a lot of time.

Looping strong spots and taking the killer around is unpleasant, like tunneling. A lot of people choose not to loop like they choose not to teabag. It's one of the ways to shake off the killer, though, and many killers camp and tunnel. It's a two way street, dude. Saying "survivors don't care about the killer's fun" is a generalization. When I play survivor, I care if the killer has fun, too.

I will say sometimes efficient play is knowing when to get off the designated looper and go after one of the weaker gen jokey, though. You can still get the time waster out of their element later. Survivors can be really nasty, though. I've experienced it, too, as I'm someone who stands up for killers when they're being unfairly accused of something or calls out people when they do something crappy like DC for no reason. I'm not one to like DS, either, as generally the players are really weak despite being in high rank because most killers will avoid them.

As I said, I can only speak from my experience after roughly 2000 hours. I estimate that 99% of the Survivors in Rank 1 will loop. I can't remember the last time I saw a Survivor prematurely drop a pallet when they actually could've run around it 2 more times. If they can loop it, they will loop it. Same goes for windows.

With most Killers you have to chase a Survivor to down them, so you have to deal with looping sooner or later. That's the first initiator for toxicity in the match, you loop a Killer before even giving them the chance to play a "fair" match. Maybe they wouldn't tunnel or camp but because you decide to loop, you made them tunnel & camp?

Again, my experience as Rank 1 Killer and Survivor is that most if not all Survivors will loop by default, the Killers playstyle is irrelevant. Why? Why do Survivors loop (and therefore ruin the fun for Killers) and still expect Killers to care about their fun? That's the one question I want Survivor mains to answer.

Maybe you're one of those 1% of Survivors that don't loop even though they could, but you're a rarity then.

E: And that whole thing with "not pressuring gens" is bullshit. You can only chase one Survivor at a time and if you happen to play against 4 good loopers, you'll just find yourself running from one looper to another without getting anything done. You can only pressure survivors by hooking them, which requires you to go through the looping before.

Playing in the high ranks, I've seen people both jump into lockers when it was too late to block BBQ (and get grabbed out due to that) and people throw down pallets at a whim. I try to save pallets as most everyone I watch says it's a better idea so that no area is necessarily a dead zone, but I mess up half the time. I had a game where I fast vaulted over a pallet over and over 'cause I panicked (was trying to insta-heal someone on the ground and they moved, so I fast vaulted the pallet instead... they need to change it back to shift. It's so hard to heal people without them fidgeting). Everyone has their potato moments. It's just important to capitalize on the potato, whether than feeding into the good loops, etc.

I've never played killer at a higher rank, though, so I wouldn't be able to guess the amount of 4 man SWF you come across that all just gen rush and run you around, though. I only know my experience as someone who generally solos. When I do play with friends, we get tunneled and camped for playing together. I don't think that should be the reaction to that, but it's whatever.

What exactly is fun about killer if the chase isn't fun, though...? That's all the killer has, really, and I have fun in chases. It's about knowing when to dip and when to commit. Even the really good killer streamers say that, too.

I honestly don't think it's as bad as you're making it out to be. They nerfed infinites and took away the teleporting to the pallet thing (rightly so). They're also removed so many of the pallets. You say you've been playing for a long time, so you should know how much of an improvement they've made for killers, just to justify camping and tunneling on a whim 'cause the survivor might loop (which is easily punished: Don't respect pallets). I don't think camping and tunneling is always unreasonable. To punish poor behavior (teabagging/cheating) or because the doors are open is fine in my opinion.

I'm sorry, but it isn't bullshit. You shouldn't be so narrow minded while approaching a discussion. It isn't good for communication to be so closed off to an opposing point of view. You're likely not running into a team where everyone is really good at looping. Even if they are, it's highly possible they will go to a dead zone if you switch chases. I've had games where the killer chased me and I ran to a dead zone. I've also had many games where the killer found an easy down. Not everyone in the game is going to be amazing always. Everyone is bound to make mistakes and if they're not, come back to them later. It might throw them off.

At least you admit that you never play Rank 1 Killer, therefore you can't possibly know how it actually is there. It's probably not as bad as the impression that you got from me, but anyway you're mixing up topics now.

This is not about "How bad is looping", it's about looping and gen rushing ruining the fun for Killers while tunneling and camping ruins the fun for the Survivors. That's how those two things are compareable. As a Killer that only rarely camps or tunnels I face MANY looping and gen rushing Survivors. Just ask in this forum what the average gen progression is after the first hook. It's usually 2-3 gens done in exchange for a single hook. Now do the basic math -> match should be over on 3rd hook.

That's how a typical match starts as a Killer, half the objectives done for Survivors while you got ONE hook. And that's why Killers camp & tunnel.

A "good" match for Survivors would require a Killer that doesn't tunnel. Without tunneling, that would mean the Killer had to get a total of 8 hooks (each survivor twice) before killing someone - in the time it took them to repair 5 gens + gates.

Now let's use basic math again, first hook usually results in 2-3 gens done. You have 7 more hooks to go if you want to play by the survivors rulebook and you got a time frame of 2-3 gens and gates to achieve that. We realize that this is basically the same time frame that we had to get our first hook, but now we need 7 of those?

And after knowing that, Survivors wonder why Killers tunnel / camp?

As I said, It's the direct result. You loop & gen rush? Killers will camp & tunnel because they basically lost before the match even started. They COULD hope for survivors inefficiency and incompetence and therefore try to snowball but that's so unreliant and risky. They already ruined your Gatekeeper emblem by rushing the gens and due to the lack of time available, you won't get enough chases and hits to fill the Malicious and Chaser emblem either.

What to do? Nothing. You lost. So might as well camp the one guy that's responsible for it - the guy that looped you for the first few gens.

Those are the thoughts many Killers have during the gameplay.

fluffybunny

@PiiFree said:

@fluffybunny said:

@PiiFree said:

@fluffybunny said:
If you tunnel one person, pressure is on one person. Gen rushing is a thing often because of tunneling the survivor off of the hook and camping the survivor. If you go for a different person, that gives one person going for the save, one person on the hook, one person being chased, and one person on the gen. If you hang out by the hooked survivor, you typically have one person going for the save in an ideal situation. Survivors often make mistakes, especially in solo. Multiple people will attempt to go for the hook when only one person is really needed and that wastes a lot of time.

Looping strong spots and taking the killer around is unpleasant, like tunneling. A lot of people choose not to loop like they choose not to teabag. It's one of the ways to shake off the killer, though, and many killers camp and tunnel. It's a two way street, dude. Saying "survivors don't care about the killer's fun" is a generalization. When I play survivor, I care if the killer has fun, too.

I will say sometimes efficient play is knowing when to get off the designated looper and go after one of the weaker gen jokey, though. You can still get the time waster out of their element later. Survivors can be really nasty, though. I've experienced it, too, as I'm someone who stands up for killers when they're being unfairly accused of something or calls out people when they do something crappy like DC for no reason. I'm not one to like DS, either, as generally the players are really weak despite being in high rank because most killers will avoid them.

As I said, I can only speak from my experience after roughly 2000 hours. I estimate that 99% of the Survivors in Rank 1 will loop. I can't remember the last time I saw a Survivor prematurely drop a pallet when they actually could've run around it 2 more times. If they can loop it, they will loop it. Same goes for windows.

With most Killers you have to chase a Survivor to down them, so you have to deal with looping sooner or later. That's the first initiator for toxicity in the match, you loop a Killer before even giving them the chance to play a "fair" match. Maybe they wouldn't tunnel or camp but because you decide to loop, you made them tunnel & camp?

Again, my experience as Rank 1 Killer and Survivor is that most if not all Survivors will loop by default, the Killers playstyle is irrelevant. Why? Why do Survivors loop (and therefore ruin the fun for Killers) and still expect Killers to care about their fun? That's the one question I want Survivor mains to answer.

Maybe you're one of those 1% of Survivors that don't loop even though they could, but you're a rarity then.

E: And that whole thing with "not pressuring gens" is bullshit. You can only chase one Survivor at a time and if you happen to play against 4 good loopers, you'll just find yourself running from one looper to another without getting anything done. You can only pressure survivors by hooking them, which requires you to go through the looping before.

Playing in the high ranks, I've seen people both jump into lockers when it was too late to block BBQ (and get grabbed out due to that) and people throw down pallets at a whim. I try to save pallets as most everyone I watch says it's a better idea so that no area is necessarily a dead zone, but I mess up half the time. I had a game where I fast vaulted over a pallet over and over 'cause I panicked (was trying to insta-heal someone on the ground and they moved, so I fast vaulted the pallet instead... they need to change it back to shift. It's so hard to heal people without them fidgeting). Everyone has their potato moments. It's just important to capitalize on the potato, whether than feeding into the good loops, etc.

I've never played killer at a higher rank, though, so I wouldn't be able to guess the amount of 4 man SWF you come across that all just gen rush and run you around, though. I only know my experience as someone who generally solos. When I do play with friends, we get tunneled and camped for playing together. I don't think that should be the reaction to that, but it's whatever.

What exactly is fun about killer if the chase isn't fun, though...? That's all the killer has, really, and I have fun in chases. It's about knowing when to dip and when to commit. Even the really good killer streamers say that, too.

I honestly don't think it's as bad as you're making it out to be. They nerfed infinites and took away the teleporting to the pallet thing (rightly so). They're also removed so many of the pallets. You say you've been playing for a long time, so you should know how much of an improvement they've made for killers, just to justify camping and tunneling on a whim 'cause the survivor might loop (which is easily punished: Don't respect pallets). I don't think camping and tunneling is always unreasonable. To punish poor behavior (teabagging/cheating) or because the doors are open is fine in my opinion.

I'm sorry, but it isn't bullshit. You shouldn't be so narrow minded while approaching a discussion. It isn't good for communication to be so closed off to an opposing point of view. You're likely not running into a team where everyone is really good at looping. Even if they are, it's highly possible they will go to a dead zone if you switch chases. I've had games where the killer chased me and I ran to a dead zone. I've also had many games where the killer found an easy down. Not everyone in the game is going to be amazing always. Everyone is bound to make mistakes and if they're not, come back to them later. It might throw them off.

At least you admit that you never play Rank 1 Killer, therefore you can't possibly know how it actually is there. It's probably not as bad as the impression that you got from me, but anyway you're mixing up topics now.

This is not about "How bad is looping", it's about looping and gen rushing ruining the fun for Killers while tunneling and camping ruins the fun for the Survivors. That's how those two things are compareable. As a Killer that only rarely camps or tunnels I face MANY looping and gen rushing Survivors. Just ask in this forum what the average gen progression is after the first hook. It's usually 2-3 gens done in exchange for a single hook. Now do the basic math -> match should be over on 3rd hook.

That's how a typical match starts as a Killer, half the objectives done for Survivors while you got ONE hook. And that's why Killers camp & tunnel.

A "good" match for Survivors would require 4 escapes; so 5 gens + gates without anyone getting killed. Without tunneling, that would mean the Killer had a total of 8 hooks (each survivor twice) in the time it took them to repair 5 gens + gates.

Now let's use basic math again, first hook usually results in 2-3 gens done. You have 7 more hooks to go if you want to play by the survivors rulebook and you got a time frame of 2-3 gens and gates to achieve that. We realize that this is basically the same time frame that we had to get our first hook, but now we need 7 of those?

And after knowing that, Survivors wonder why Killers tunnel / camp?

As I said, It's the direct result. You loop & gen rush? Killers will camp & tunnel because they basically lost before the match even started. They COULD hope for survivors inefficiency and incompetence and therefore try to snowball but that's so unreliant and risky. They already ruined your Gatekeeper emblem by rushing the gens and due to the lack of time available, you won't get enough chases and hits to fill the Malicious and Chaser emblem either.

What to do? Nothing. You lost. So might as well camp the one guy that's responsible for it - the guy that looped you for the first few gens.

Those are the thoughts many Killers have during the gameplay.

Well. XD Actually, the topic started as a complaint about diction and evolved into what we're talking about because "camping" and "tunneling" are trigger words apparently. I don't think a good portion of who have posted so far actually read what I wrote and just assumed I was talking about the act of tunneling and camping in general. I honestly want what's best for everyone with those kinds of things and am generally pretty weak in chases unless I have a good rhythm. I have my moments.

What you described is more of a "great" match. I see two people escaping as a good, one person as poor, and everyone dying as awful, though I also really like points and if I get a lot, idc what happens in the end.

While it may take a while to get the first, it's a snowball affect especially if you have perks to help with finding people such as BBQ. I suppose I'm just different with how I play as I see a pip and a lot of BP as a win and not necessarily a kill. I want something challenging and I'd rather take the threat to the survivors rather than wait for the survivors to come to me.

PiiFree

@fluffybunny said:
Well. XD Actually, the topic started as a complaint about diction and evolved into what we're talking about because "camping" and "tunneling" are trigger words apparently. I don't think a good portion of who have posted so far actually read what I wrote and just assumed I was talking about the act of tunneling and camping in general. I honestly want what's best for everyone with those kinds of things and am generally pretty weak in chases unless I have a good rhythm. I have my moments.

What you described is more of a "great" match. I see two people escaping as a good, one person as poor, and everyone dying as awful, though I also really like points and if I get a lot, idc what happens in the end.

While it may take a while to get the first, it's a snowball affect especially if you have perks to help with finding people such as BBQ. I suppose I'm just different with how I play as I see a pip and a lot of BP as a win and not necessarily a kill. I want something challenging and I'd rather take the threat to the survivors rather than wait for the survivors to come to me.

So you rate the match based on bloodpoints and pips instead of actual gameplay experience? You're a grinder-type of player in that case, you want to gather a virtual currency as efficient as possible and your actual experience is not at priority. I'm pretty sure that mindset applies to a lot of Survivors, they rate the match based on bloodpoints, pips and escapes instead of actual experience during the match. For Killers, I suppose that's the other way around. Our "fun" is directly bound to Survivors because almost everything Killers do requires interaction with Survivors.

An interaction with a survivor can be good or bad, this solely depends on the Survivors playstyle and the Killers ability to deal with it. For looping - depending on the Killer - there are not a lot of ways to deal with it more efficient. It's all based on facts, more or less the difference in movement speed defines how long a loop will go on. No mindgames involved, no skill involved and the only thing that can prolong or shorten a chase are actual mistakes of one side.

This is a very generic and boring playstyle for the Killer. It's like playing tag.

The interesting things are the mindgames, for example predicting the Survivors movements and cut their path or faking directions with red strain ect.

If I get a 4k double pip with 32k points but the whole match was basically a long "playing Tag" with no mindgames or anything interesting, that match was not fun. I was successful, that's for sure, but the experience was painful, boring and not fun at all.

For me, actual gameplay experience matters and when Survivors ruin it by looping and gen rushing, I see no reason why I should not camp or tunnel. The match is already ruined and I'm not asking for their mercy. Let's end this match as soon as possible so I can find players that actually want to have a fun match instead of just farming bloodpoints and gtfo.