http://dbd.game/killswitch
Faster Bleedout vs Basekit Unbreakable For Stopping Slugging
Comments
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I'm so glad this dev team don't listen to the community basekit unbreakable is such an unfathomably horrible idea it's crazy that people actually think its a good idea.
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Yet a Mori doesn't sacrifice to entity but does have the same result of eliminating a player from the match. Basekit Mori for last survivor or tombstone Myers isn't killer completing main objective?
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sure, give me free
Pain res base-kit at 15% regression, unlimited usages
Pop goes weasel at 25% max regression.
Surge at 8% regression works with all attacks.
you can have base-kit unbreakable after you grant all 3 game-delay perks.
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But I'm on the ground with three other people. We are lying there slugged, waiting for the game to end because we're just bleeding out. The killer is spinning in circles.
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Something!, ANYTHING! Needs to be done for this problem..........
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Either you hillariously gave a leatherface the once in the lifetime play of the game or you royally messed up the rescue attempts one after another.
Well anyways thats why i suggested just sacrificing all survivors in such a situation.
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the OP is correctly pointing out that a faster bleedout does the opposite.In a vacuum, yes, but this presumes the idea is just 'faster bleedout' with no other modifier or trigger.
If you're looking to make a more enjoyable game, you'd want to do something that discourages unfun situations in the first place,Conceptually there is an inevitability that there will be some 'unfun' situations that arise in a multiplayer game. The risk of losing is what gives winning its value.
What makes getting slugged unfun? Well, you lose the game, but what makes it so much worse than getting hooked? Well just lying on the ground for 4 minutes is incredibly boring. Its not that getting downed and left is somehow inherently more unfun than getting downed and hooked, its that 'why am I trapped in a video game?' feeling. It's only an unfun situation because of what can transpire when it occurs.
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Neither of these options is perfect, and they kind of target different things. The big reasons I don't like the base kit unbreakable option is that A) it's potentially abusable, and B) the devs have already tested it and said they won't do it.
Letting survivors bleed out if at most one survivor is standing (3 are dead, slugged, or hooked) isn't abusable at least. It's also potentially a weak enough option in some cases that the devs might actually consider it.
Let's compare some target slugging scenarios:
"For the 4k": letting survivors bleed out just shortens an already lost game. It doesn't change the outcome of the game, and respects the players time. UB drags out this scenario while the killer plays whack a mole for longer than 4 minutes until someone actually bleeds out.
"Toxic slugging" (getting humped on the ground): bleedout gets you out of that scenario. UB just means you get knocked back on the ground the instant you stand up.
"Excessive slugging" (at 5 gens, or "instead of hooks"): is relatively new, and bleedout might encourage this slightly more, but this is the only scenario that UB actually works in.
You could potentially do both options, or in reality, since the devs are not likely to change their minds on base kit UB, we need a new, third option that solves these problems. Having one or infinite uses of unbreakable doesn't really change these either.
Honestly, since the excessive slugging option is a player mentality issue, I'm not sure what a good solution would look like that isn't also abusable in other situations.
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I think the base kit unbreakable for 1 slugged survivor when their are only 2 survivors left alive is a solution but only activates after the survivor has already been healed from the dying state 1 time
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Slugging isn't a new problem; it's just a problem BHVR hasn't fixed yet. And no matter what you do to bleedout, there will always be some Killers who will slug because it's what they want to do. I have not-so-fond memories of a Pig doing a full slug and bleedout with Knockout and Third Seal on a Lery's offering when I first started playing more than 3 years ago, and that was before all the changes people mention.
As a Killer, I understand the motivation behind some types of slugging. Hooking a Survivor takes time which you don't always have, and if you know Survivors are either playing aggressively (hovering for flashy or pallet saves, sabotaging hooks), teaming up on a vulnerable generator or even if the Survivor has just positioned themselves in a place where hooking is going to take too long, then slugging is just the better play. I don't think that's what most reasonable players have a problem with, so a solution doesn't need to apply in those cases. There's also the niche cases where a Survivor can make themselves unhookable through map offeirngs and perks or through cheats, but those are issues for BHVR to fix in terms of QoL, not balance.
I don't think the bleedout timer needs to be as long as it is. In a game played in seconds or even fractions of a second, 4 minutes is too long, especially if all Survivors are down and there are no perks that will help them up. In those cases, an 'execution Mori' like the one they tried to implement might not be a bad idea. However, I do think that some kind of basekit Unbreakable after a certain amount of accumulated time on the ground, even if at a lower speed, would help disincentivise mass bleedout slugging and/or slugging for the 4k, which I think are the most egregious and disliked forms of slugging. On the flipside, accelerating picking up, carrying and hooking Survivors would offset the loss of momentum it can sometimes cause. Knock Out should be reworked, and if other changes happened changes to related perks like Boil Over, Flip-Flop and Unbreakable, as well as hook offerings, would be necessary. There also needs to be broader conversations about slowdown perks and the strength of some item addons, but that's not the focus of discussion here.
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Yes, a mori is a legitimate way to kill a survivor and complete the objective, bleeding them out is not.
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But Mori isn't a sacrifice or using the hooks yet that's legit? So how is that sacrificing to the entity which is the main objective? I would say the main objective is kill survivors/stop them escaping which a bleed out does accomplish this goal, it even gives the "no one escaped" bonus if there is a bleed out.
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Just add unbreakable basekit if there's 2 survivors on the ground, ez fix for slug, bye
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Thing about "normal" play is that it sucks from the killer perspective.
Being punished by anti-tunnel perks even if you don't tunnel and losing because of it…that's what makes the knockdown playstyle more attractive, you have to put up with less ultra-frustrating bulls**t.
Plus it tends to turn the whole trial into one long chase for the killer, gens don't fly, and you actually feel more like the power role.
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That's why knock out is popular among these killer who only slug
In soloQ, you can't see where is the downed survivor0 -
Whenever I have more than 1 Survivor on the ground, it's usually because I've downed one in a pallet and I've had to down two others nearby before I can pick up, because the team's been hovering around for beamer or pallet saves and they won't leave the area.
So I wouldn't want a solution that might let a Survivor get back up for free in this situation, because they've obviously screwed up badly here. This is why it's so difficult for BHVR to come up with a good solution.
Maybe implementing a weaker version of base-kit tenacity with some endurance on pick up could be a way to go, so that a Killer can't easily camp slugs and Survivors then have an opportunity to crawl away to some safety for a pick up. Could be problems I've not considered with that idea too. Honestly, I don't know what the best solution is.
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It wasn't busted lol I'm just stating what actually happened that killers who get quick downs in succession were what people were complaining about, it was just initial reactions to basekit unbreakable which were the issue, when the PTB had been around for a bit it was slugging was even stronger despite the change as it could end the game against certain killers.
And yes I'm not complaining about Tenacity, I'm saying Basekit Unbreakable would be a good thing.1 -
No, because it's only an option, you are sent to a hook only if you don't want to stay on the floor. A bleeding-out option would be a go next, but with this solution you only lost a hook stage. With basekit unbreakable the killer would totally lose the pressure, but in this solution he is rewarded with a hook.
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That's kinda my point, though. The result of the killer aggressively slugging - the thing we're ostensibly trying to fix - is that they get rewarded for it.
If you know that your opponent will just give you a reward for you employing a specific tactic, aren't you going to feel more inclined to go for that specific tactic?
If we want to lessen slugging, whatever system we implement would have to be something the killer wants to avoid or we're making the problem worse.
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edit: I wrote a comment here before reading the OP or anything else in the thread. As it turns out, my ideas were exactly what the OP and many others proposed here. Turns out I wasn't super original and insightful after all! Just leaving this up to second the points others have made about faster bleedout encouraging slugging
Post edited by ratcoffee on4 -
Basekit unbreakable when all survivors are on the ground or hooked
Basekit unbreakable all the time when 2 survivors are left
Faster bleedout will be used to grief the match. Funny to see someone asking for the 4% to be removed and for faster bleedout at the same time (Not saying I see someone but surely it exists) Plus, faster bleedout will buff slugging
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It's been proven already that basekit unbreakable is abusable. Period.
If they do this they'll need to buff certain Killers more. Many Killers have been buffed enough, some languish. There are cases where you HAVE to leave someone downed, it's unfortunately just part of the game.
Faster bleedout is way more preferable, plus encouraging Survivors to go pick their friends up. That means encouraging teamwork. Some of this is on Survivors too.0 -
Frankly this.
Needs doing, needed done yesterday. Only certain toolboxes though.0 -
It's been proven that a basekit Unbreakable is a bad idea if it's done in the specific way that the one PTB it was tested on did it, not that it's a bad idea period.
Though, for the record, not what this thread is about. The thread is about how faster bleedout would encourage more frequent and more aggressive slugging.
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They already tried basekit unbreakable and it was OP. Give killers basekit corrupt intervention then we'll talk about it
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You mean the auto mori was OP
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Basekit unbreakable is just going to punish killers harder for things out of their control and faster bleedout just encourages the slugging more.
They need to fundamentally go back to the drawing board and look into WHY killers are slugging and WHY survivors hate it and address it more intelligently. They can't just bandaid fix this because all that will happen is killers will go to the next "annoying thing"
They need to realize that spending years giving survivors buffs when they get unhooked through perks, and basekit mechanics. While also nerfing killer perks around hooking while also increasing the hook timer, while also making survivors on the hook actually safer than ones not on the hook is obviously going to lead to "not hooking"
They need to actively ENCOURAGE killers to hook by rewarding them, not by punishing them. They need to make tunneling fundamentally IMPOSSIBLE from a gameplay perspective, not bandaid it with more basekit mechanics. They need to do something about the "game is definitely lost now" for BOTH SIDES that just makes everyone immediately give up, and deal with the "slugging the whole team for 4 minutes" and "slugging for the 4k"
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It's not really what this thread is about but I do have to point out, there's been extremely little added to the game that buffs survivors surrounding hooks where the killer actually does have to deal with it. The vast majority of it specifically surrounds camping or tunnelling, not just hooking in general.
It's tricky to make hooking more rewarding without it being broken, considering how rewarding hooking already is.
Though, again, to reiterate: This thread is about why a faster bleedout timer is a bad idea.
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I am just really confusted.
Survivors constantly asking for one of their most powerful counters for a meta to be base kit
But then those some people turn around and complain about the lack of good perk options.
NO you cant have basekit unbreakable. If you want it, bring the blasted perk. You have tools. USE THEM!!!
And for the record, NO! I am not blaming survivors. I have made suggestions repeatedly on how the situation could be made less painful for survivor and benefit both sides. Will the devs listen? Who knows. One thing I do know though is that the state of hooking and how unfun and stressful killer has become has been discusssed to death. Everything you could ever want to know about the way killers feel about it and why slugging is becoming more common is out there. People who are still beating on about this just dont care at this point. It's just mindless complaining without any intention to come to an understanding WHY things are the way they are.
If the dozens of threads and videos talking about it still arent enough to get through to the people who still choose to complain then its not even worth trying to reiterate what has allready been said. It is a waste of time.1 -
"Just dont tunnel" doesn't work when survivors can actively OFFENSIVELY use OTR and Basekit BT and DS to body block for their teammates and still get a free escape.
But it is all related, the REASON this slugging epidemic has happened is because the devs constantly punish hooks.
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I was for a faster bleed-out option, but that's just the same as giving up on hook, so I changed my mind. Most likely, they're gonna give free Unbreakable, and then I don't know what will happen.
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Basekit BT is the one thing you do actually have to deal with, I'd agree with that. Stuff like the anti face camp, the extra ten seconds on hooks, various other anti-tunnel/anti-camp perks like DS and Shoulder The Burden and such, those are the things you don't have to deal with unless you're actively tunnelling/camping.
It's at best a minor annoyance, though, it's hardly "hooks aren't worth it anymore" levels of overbearing.
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That definitely puts it into perspective. I've even seen solos counterplay Knockout very easily. They just crawl to/pick up each other. That's all it takes. It's not complicated.
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DS can literally be forced. Just watch any streamer, most of the time when they get hit by DS they are literally not tunneling. You often get hit by DS more while not tunneling than you do by tunneling.
Lets look at it this way, survivors tend not to like the perk "No one escapes death" because it isn't earned, the killer "earns it" by losing, they are rewarded for doing badly in a way right?
Why is it that survivors get:
- DS
- Basekit BT
- DH
- Unbreakable
- OTR
- Deliverance
- Etc
All for getting hooked? Those things are things the survivors "earned" by "losing" they got caught. That is how killers feel about so many survivor perks and basekit mechanics. They all feel like NOED to us.
You also seem to think that things like "shoulder the burden" are fine because "just don't tunnel" You need to realize that the game fundamentally is designed in a way where the killer cannot 12 hook people. There is no time to 12 hook people. If you haven't removed a survivor from the game by your 5th or 6th hook, you are probably going to lose.
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The in-game manual explains the killer's main objective is to sacrifice survivors. When a bleed out happens, a killer did not do what they were supposed to do to win against that survivor. Bleedouts don't award any points, they lower match grade rating, and the game won't count them for completing adepts, daily, or tome challenges. A killer has to take action and hook or mori a survivor in order to get credit for a kill. It's also not like end game collapse where the timer favors the killer and Times Up counts as a sacrifice/kill.
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There is no way to force a pickup. What typically happens is that survivors are bodyblocking, which can be forced, and the killer decides to pick them up either because it's the path of least resistance (or would be without DS) or because they're just kinda not thinking that hard about it. That's not the same as DS being forced, if you're aware of what survivors who play like this are banking on you can avoid it 100% of the time.
As for why survivors get those things, let's actually adjust that real quick to take Deliverance and Dead Hard off the list. Survivors aren't just given those, Deliverance is earned via getting a safe unhook and Dead Hard requires you to actually time it right. So, we're actually looking at DS, basekit BT, Unbreakable, and OTR.
DS, basekit BT, and OTR exist because without them there'd be a glaring flaw in the game's balance: if the killer just hits you as soon as your feet touch the ground, you're back on the hook with no input on your end. That's bad for balance, bad for the experience, and cuts out a huge swath of the game's, y'know, gameplay.
Unbreakable exists to answer the killer's gameplay as well, albeit in a less extreme way. Leaving survivors on the ground is sometimes a good idea, so survivors can spend a perk slot to protect against that very specific decision.
None of these are a reward for "losing", or just for getting caught/downed. They're answers to specific killer choices outside of the basic interaction of being downed and hooked, and they very crucially do not affect the basic value of downing and hooking survivors- except for Unbreakable, to be fair. None of the hook related ones affect the basic value you get from hooking someone, though.
As for them feeling like NOED, I mean, fine? NOED's fine.
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Well yeah Nurse is the best killer in the game no matter how many buffs the others killers because of her power alone. Huntress has always been able to get quickdown because of her hatchet, that it literally her power, to shred through health states. Sluggin by itself can be counter by 3 perks Unbreakable, MFT and WGLF. All of those perks can basically destroy a slugging build
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You are completely wrong. I have seen instances every day where these perks are being abused. I can absolutly assure you they are not "anti tunnel" perks. They are Anti pressure perks. They punish killers unilaterally reguardless of what they do. This is espically egregious with perks like DS and OTR.
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It got canned because survivors were weaponizing the basekit UB, by purposely placing themselves in situations where they couldn't be hooked.
It also got canned because if the killer was winning by a lot, and tried to slug everyone in the game at the same time, it made the games last a super long time because survivors would keep picking themselves up. And slugging for the 4k even increased game time by a lot, because the killer would slug the 3rd survivor, patrol the map for the 4th survivor, and the 3rd survivor would pick themselves up and extend the game.
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The Endurance you get from the basekit BT and from OTR can be weaponised via bodyblocking, that's it. The rest are entirely avoidable by just ignoring the survivor on the hook/who just got unhooked.
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Again, you can FORCE the killer to be hit by these things. And that is the problem, you cannot just say "don't tunnel".
At the same time, i agree with you, and i don't think "don't tunnel" should be a perk thing, they basekit should not just "punish" tunneling, but make it completely impossible from a gameplay perspective.
But they also need to address the reason that killers are not hooking. Please, have a little empathy for the other side and try and understand. Don't just think "path of least resistance" and "killers bad" really try to understand WHY killers are not hooking.
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Endurance can be forced, not the other things. Only the basekit BT and OTR can be leveraged this way, and even then only in scenarios where the killer's actually near the hook, which isn't every time.
So, we have a very short list of things that only sometimes have to be dealt with without you playing into them, that are often trivially easy to deal with anyway, and don't affect the basic value you'd get from having hooked that person to begin with.
Killers aren't hooking because they're currently getting more value from slugging. They're currently getting more value from slugging because fewer people expect it, so they aren't prepared to deal with it, and a lot of the preparation they'd do revolves around specific perks, which isn't ideal from a gameplay perspective.
If slugging were made riskier, most killers who are currently slugging would just go back to hooking, because hooking's completely fine at the moment overall.
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Please, have empathy and understand WHY this is happening and stop looking to punish people.
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It is ENTIRELY inappropriate to claim that OTR is a shield to cower behind but then use it as a sword. Endurance as a mechanic is meant to give survivors a chance to get away. It is a defensive tool. The fact it is being used offensively shows that it is incredibly problematic and in need of a rework. Additionally, the duration of endurance you get from OTR makes it no longer just a defensive tool. It is a guarantee of escape. It removes all risk, rewarding the survivor for being caught and then makes it incredibly easy to be used offensivly because it lasts for so long. It is completely unacceptable in its design.
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”Bleeding out isn’t a valid way to win” I dunno, the survivors still seem dead to me
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Mori was nowhere near as useful as 4x unbreakables unless you played against noob survivors, it introduced some really abusable builds too.
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I just said, I do know why this is happening.
I'm not actually trying to punish people, here. I just know there's no way of fixing this without a deterrent towards aggressively slugging, because anything that pushes the game towards the killer's win condition after heavy slugging is going to encourage it. That's the opposite of fixing the problem.
The fact of the matter is, the comments about survivors being buffed unbelievably when you hook them are just overblown. Things can be done to improve the killer experience overall, of course, and even bodyblocking could potentially be addressed sometime, but we can't assume that because some players are kinda annoyed by bodyblocking that we should actually make hooking itself more rewarding than it already is.
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unbreakable- whenever you pick yourself up from the dying state you remove all negative effects, become undetectable, gain a large speed boost, AND gain endurance for ten seconds at purple rarity
7.5 seconds for green and 5 seconds for yellow
i very much so enjoy coming up with perk ideas so please come at me with more reworks or general ideas for perks that could be made
edit for spelling errors
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But the point is that hooking is NOT rewarding. The point is that slugging is more effective because hooking is so weak.
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Well, that raises the question, what exactly makes hooking weak?
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