General Discussions
General Discussions
Faster Bleedout vs Basekit Unbreakable For Stopping Slugging
Comments
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I'm not trying to persuade you of anything, no. Well, except that playing the fundamentals is a sounder strategy than leaning on crutches like tunnelling, but I don't personally care if you act on that fact. Play however you want, I just bristle a little when people claim you have to do these things. Of course you don't, you can play the game perfectly well by sticking to the fundamentals.
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yeah dude, I'm aware of how the game works. ya can stop speaking to me like im a 500 hour noob who hard tunnels and camps every game because waaaaaahh the game is so hard and survivor sided.
yes, people need to learn the fundamentals because those help you in all aspects of the game.
I know those fundamentals because I use them in most of my games and win nearly every time.
But if you wanna talk learning, experience, and player skill, then we can talk about the fact that a major aspect to DbD (which takes as much experience to understand as the fundamentals themselves) is that those strategies just don't work against any team that is good. If a team is ultra efficient and good in chase then you just cannot afford to handicap yourself, sorry. That's the way it is and no amount of "spreading pressure" will change that unless you're playing Nurse because spreading pressure relies on the survivors being bad. That's why it works in most games, because most survivors are bad.
It also makes me bristle when people say that killers are "bad" or "crutching" when they tunnel because they actually want to win lmao.
Imagine you're playing Chess and the MMR is set to where you'll go against bad players 90% of the time. Then someone comes up to you and is like, "you can win without a queen bro, its a fine strategy I do it all the time, you just need to be good" and you win those 90% of games without a queen. And then, out of nowhere, you go against a grandmaster who's using everything in their ability to win. You decide to use your queen because why shouldn't you? Your opponent is doing literally everything in their power to win and using every tool at their disposal. You'd be a fool to not do the same because that would basically make the match over before it starts. You win the game, then that guy comes back and is like "nah dude, you relied on the crutch that is the queen, just use the fundamentals because the queen is for noobs and is a cheese piece that's easy to use and crutch on, get better"
It's almost comical. Trying to tell players that they should purposely use the bad card in the card game (while all their opponents are using the good card) and if they wanna use the good card too then that means they're crutching.2 -
I think part of the disconnect here is that you're treating the basic gameplay loop as a handicap - playing without a queen in chess, using bad cards in a card game - instead of the default.
This naturally leads tunnelling to look like its the default, instead. After all, it's expected that you'll be trying to win.
The issue here is, it glides over tunnelling being unbalanced, and it glides over tunnelling being a shortcut that bypasses a good chunk of the game. That last part isn't inherently negative, all kinds of legitimate shortcuts exist in the game, but it is true of tunnelling either way.
So, to be clear, spreading pressure isn't handicapping yourself, it's playing to the default challenge level of the game, for lack of a better term. Tunnelling is lowering that default challenge, by taking away avenues for your opponent to outplay you. You get to skip an entire health state, you get to start the chase in a favourable position because the survivor's still close to the hook, and if successful, you get to put yourself in a winning position overall very early into the match.
Play however you want. If you want to have the absolute highest chance of winning the matches you're currently playing, by all means, tunnel. My only position here is that you'd be better served in the long run not leaning on something that's currently unbalanced, because when it is inevitably balanced by a patch (looking to be sometime in the back half of this year, if the roadmap is anything to go by) you're going to start floundering.
Maybe that means, in the short term, you'll lose to teams that you'd currently consider "good". Some would argue that means you aren't at a skill level where you should beat those teams- unless you'd argue you sit at the very pinnacle of skill it's possible to achieve in this game, which seems like an unfair assumption for me to make about your position. In the long run, though, after that adjustment period, it'll safeguard your gameplay against balance changes and improve your overall skill at the game.
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There is no "default" way to play the game. That's rulebook logic.
For now, spreading hooks IS the bad card. It's a bad strategy for reasons I've mentioned. Saying that its the intended or default way of playing the game doesn't change that.
If they want to actually buff the bad card, then good, please do.
But I've been waiting 5 years for that safeguard to come and it never has.2 -
I mean, there is a default way to play the game? At least, insofar as the game obviously has a core gameplay loop.
Find, chase, down, hook, repeat. That's the core gameplay loop of killer in DBD, there's no getting around that.
I'm not saying you have to do that blindly and with no alterations, I'm saying that tunnelling is designed to cut out big chunks of that loop. No finding survivors, no dealing with two health states in chase (barring certain perks anyway), no worrying about the chase starting in a bad position, and ultimately, massively empowering that loop once you're done by being in a 1v3 early.
Again, some ways of cutting out parts of the loop are legitimate because they don't give disproportionate rewards. Info perks to make tracking survivors easier, for example, is a shortcut, and one that isn't unbalanced in the way that tunnelling is. If tunnelling were riskier, if it were more possible for survivors to last as long or longer in chase while tunnelled as they would in other circumstances so killers were more likely to lose off the back of that ostensible gamble, tunnelling wouldn't be the problem that it is right now.
As for the safeguard, it exists right now. You take the short-term dip in results, and in exchange, BHVR are far less likely to demolish your entire gameplan with a balance update. That's the safeguard.
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The short term dip has existed for 5 years. Playing "as intended" is still a terrible strategy for reasons I've mentioned.
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If you haven't been consistently playing that way for five years, how would you be experiencing the dip?
The dip is personal. It's while you get better at playing to the fundamentals, not until the game changes around you.
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Because like I said, 90% of my games I do play to the "fundamentals". You seem to think that I hard tunnel and camp every game when I'm just saying that spreading hooks is a dogshit strategy and that tunneling is necessary in some situations.
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I feel like maybe you're using the term fundamentals differently to me, because I am using that term interchangeably with spreading pressure.
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I'm using it the same too. I spread hooks 90% of my games.
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…Then what exactly is your argument here?
Sometimes there are teams you can't beat without leaning on something unbalanced…? I mean, sure, fine, you can't win every match, I don't see that as a reason why the basic fundamental skills of the game are a bad strategy.
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My argument is that those fundamentals only work because the majority of the playerbase is BAD, not because those strategies are GOOD.
"Sometimes there are teams you can't beat without leaning something unbalanced" yeah, because the other way of playing is so ######### bad and inefficient that you're going to lose the match if you do it. You're trying to downplay how bad spreading hooks is by ignoring that and focusing on the idea that tunneling is "unbalanced".
Yeah, you cant win every match. That's fine. But you should have a CHANCE to win every match. If you think you're going to win a match against a coordinated team using stacked meta perks and map offerings to Gas Heaven/GOJ/Springwood by walking around the map and spreading hooks then I'm sorry but I really have nothing to say to you because that's just delusional.0 -
Right, got it.
So, the big issue is you're misplacing what's wrong with the balance in that example.
In that example, you aren't losing because spreading hooks is inherently a bad strategy, you're losing because the top potential of what survivors can bring and where they can choose to go is currently too strong. Those same players running less potent tools on more balanced maps are absolutely beatable by spreading pressure, as long as you're of the same skill level as them overall.
I can see where the disconnect is between us from here, though. I think that's the big part- it's not that the basic fundamentals of the game are too weak for killer, it's that the stuff survivors could bring is too strong. The same's generally true on both sides, too- a Nurse with meta perks on Midwich is just as dire for survivors.
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Exactly this! SWF need to be nerfed with gen speeds, tools, and perks. When that happens, they will be closer to SoloQ level, making the game easier to balance for everyone and guess what, I bet the SWF groups will be miserable dealing with a game closer to the SoloQ level.
Then once SWF are nerfed, real anti-camp and anti-slug mechanics can be put into the game and it won't blow the game up for Killers facing a SWF because they will be nerfed.
For instance, mechanics like the anti-camp meter is always increasing and varies speed depending on how close the Killer is and doesn't get voided by a chase happening near the hook (only gets voided by insidious), so while the Killer is hard camping because they have no skill, the person on hook can unhook themselves when the opportunity arises and the person occupying the Killer near the hook can continue to do so and possibly escape.
But anyway, we are getting crappy QoL changes from BHVR that are just going to make the game more miserable and more spiteful while not addressing the real issues with the game that have snowballed into what we have now.
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Thankfully operation health is in order, so these issues will be resolved for DBD's double digit anniversary. Something still needs ti be dine about SWF's though, since they can coordinate powerful builds that make killer super unfun, when the games already survivor sided
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Yea okay, people are going to stop playing when they get DC penalties for missing the 2nd hook phase skill check lol Or when every match of SoloQ turns into getting slugged and then voting to end the game. All the while, SWF is neither addressed properly nor is tunneling/camping/slugging. Band aid fixes for a wound that requires stitches are just going to keep on bleeding and assuredly will get infected.
Also, I think a lot of people aren't aware of how astoundingly awful the DC penalties are in this game, a game that's not even competitive. Someone DC 5 times in a row within 24 hours and report back what your accumulative penalty is, I already know the answer to that, but I know that 99% of the people on this forum have not a clue.
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…If you DC 5 times in a row within 24 hours, shouldn't your penalty be super high? Surely a DC penalty isn't functioning as intended if you can DC as much as you want and not care about the outcome?
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I mean, people who go next don't stop playing, the people who have to experience teammates going next stop playing. If they're so selfish enough to leave a match then they should be punished, and while they're banned from matchmaking, that's one less ######### ruining games for on average 24 other survivor players per hour.
They're not gonna stop playing the game entirely, they gotta keep that ego nice and big and fragile so that when they do quit because they simply got outplayed, they're punished justly and hopefully learn their lesson to not do that again.
Assuming this penalty is big enough to save more people from the offending players, hopefully it gets bumped to an hour minamum and they put measures in place to detect unintentional dcs like crashes
No one knows what 5 consecutive penalties do because people here for the most part actually think abt their actions and stick their games out. Do you know because you've dced 5 times in a row? Was this an experiment you ran or did you purposely do it?
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Does a DC penalty need to lock you out for 24hrs and then take almost an entire week to get the timer to reset to 0, for a DC penalty system to be functioning?
There is 0 logical reason for such high DC penalties in this game and a static or maxxed out penalty of 5 minutes would be fine, especially if they are going to start handing out DC's for going next. Actually, the overwhelming vast majority of PVP games on the market and ever released in the history of the gaming industry, don't have such harsh penalties.
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I mean… yes?
Let me ask you this: If it were lower, would you DC more often?
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Minimum*. It's minimum, not minamum.
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So then what prevents every other PVP game in existence from having lobbies full of bots or lobbies that just end?
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That's not what I asked, I asked if you'd DC more with lower DC penalties.
You're not supposed to be DCing unless you absolutely have to for real-life reasons, remember, so what's the benefit of lowering DC penalties?
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I asked you, what prevents every other PVP game on the market from having full bot lobbies or lobbies that just abruptly end?
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If you don't have an answer, that's alright.
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Well I see you don't. You want to discuss semantics about DC penalties as a strawman, yet why does every other PVP game not have an issue with DCing?
So again, what keeps every other pvp game and every other asymm game, from having full bot lobbies or lobbies that abruptly end (since we're about to get a surrender option lol)?
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Okay, so, two things.
1: You are invoking this to heavily imply that it would be better for the game to have lessened DC penalties. I am asking you, directly, why you think that. What's the benefit of following other games here? What do you hope/think will happen after this hypothetical change?
2: Some other games do actually have that issue, for the record. My experience with old Overwatch and League of Legends from around the same time period included a lot of people ragequitting or moving to surrender (in League's case).
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You asked me personally if I would DC more if the timer is lowered, as if that was some sort of gotcha question. I didn't even want to waste time on that because it's mute. I would not, I don't endorse DCing nor do I want to DC. I don't even DC in PVP games where there isn't even a base DC penalty, which is most PVP games lol So?
Old League of Legends and Overwatch are the only games you can come up with? Those are also two highly competitive games and also are esports .99% of the gaming industry doesn't have this issue, so maybe you should start focusing on where that issue stems from and less on the punishment. People don't want to sit in matches of DBD because they are unfun and a waste of time when they are meant to be the complete opposite; that's BHVR's fault and that's also your fault, along with people like you, for not holding BHVR accountable for how toxic this game is and how subpar BHVR has been.
My point is, BHVR can't implement highly competitive DC penalties as if their video game is an esports, yet at the same time they completely drop the ball on balance and refuse to balance the game competitively. Now they're going to hand out DC penalties for going next, which isn't going to stop that, that's just going to stop people from booting up the game entirely. It's going to demolish player retention. Most of my matches in SoloQ someone DC's and even in 2v8 people are DCing, on both sides.
You're so focused on a punishment and not what's causing people to want to gtfo of a match.
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DC penalties don't exist to enforce some kind of e-sports level commitment or whatever, that's a very warped understanding of the situation.
DC penalties are one of the systems that exist across most multiplayer titles (exempting stuff like battle royales where it doesn't really matter) to make it so that players can't completely screw over every other player's experiences because they ragequit. Some games opt for a backfill mechanic where applicable - Overwatch was one of those - some games opt for a DC penalty, some games opt for both. DBD primarily favours the DC penalty, but the bots exist as a pseudo-backfill mechanic too.
If matches of DBD are unfun miserable slogs for you, then you shouldn't be queuing. If matches of DBD really are consistently this bad, you should be railing against the balance, not asking for ways of making sure everyone else's matches are that bad on the regular.
The DC penalties do in fact need to scale that hard, because otherwise, people will DC more. Regardless of why, that's a bad thing.
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The DC penalties are competitive? How does one make a penalty competitive?
Considering people have been "going to next" for a variety of reasons from semi reasonable such as 3 on hook with 4th chased to unreasonable such as the killer daring to play legion/Freddy/whatever killer they don't like, where's the line drawn where people can say "What the hell, not cool"?
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I think i only know the first 3 cus of videos ive seen (mostly during the hacker epidemic).
Its First 1 minute, than 5 or 7 id remember, then an hour ...
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To my knowledge, I think 5 DCs is 24 hours?
I've never seen it myself though, obviously lol
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You have to really hate the game if ur dcing that much
These things are problems, but i wouldn't say they're frustrating enough to make someone quit a match.
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Do you? Because 5 really isn't that much, especially if you know actually anything about how the penalty system in DBD works, because it doesn't have to be five consecutive DC's either. Though you were in another thread not even understanding how the penalty for gen speed works when multiple survs are on a gen, so that's not surprising.
You should re-read my comments, I'm not re explaining because you skipped over everything I said. Don't respond if you aren't going to actually read. Try again with another alt pls.
DC penalties to this severity, exist only to keep a game functional that's in a highly competitive state, mostly always esports games. That's a fact. Name another asymm or pvp game, that's not esports, that locks players out for 72 hrs after 7 DCs or have penalty time limits that deescalate only a single level of severity, after 24 hrs, taking an entire week to deescalate 7 DC's back to start. Then explain to me why DBD needs that, but doesn't need competitive balancing.
Clearly DBD is unfun and miserable, that's why BHVR has to urgently do a "QoL update" and halt actual content, because most Survs don't want to be in a match (Most Survs are SoloQ) lol You also never answered, why aren't all PVP games filled with bots or empty lobbies if DC penalties are soooooo needed yet almost all PVP games lack DC penalties? Maybe it's because other PVP games are actually fun and engaging, hmmmm?
You and I both know that BHVR should be focusing on fixing why people are DCing and going next, not further penalizing players because they don't want to sit in a unfun match and no amount of force is going to do that. Also let's be clear, the going next epidemic is a SoloQ issue and the penalties that are going to be handed out to those who die at 2nd hook phase, is an issue that is solely going to decimate SoloQ even more, SWF don't do that.
If your intent is to shill for the game until all that is left are sweaty S-Tier Killers and SWF groups, then keep on trucking, you will surely get that!
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I'm not mentioning other games because they're irrelevant. We're not talking about other games, and we're not even talking about the balancing of DBD, we're talking about a very specific thing: Should people be allowed to DC multiple times in the span of a day without a severe penalty.
The answer is, of course, no, no they should not.
Do you know what makes my solo queue games miserable most frequently? It's people leaving matches. Giving up on hook especially, but even DCing can put a team on the back foot since the DC bots aren't that good. People feeling entitled to just give up at the drop of a hat and doom the rest of the match is what makes games miserable, and does need to be kept in check by penalties. It's also why this "go next prevention" mechanic they're talking about is a good idea (in theory, depending on how it's done), because a lot of people don't even have to deal with the penalty on account of just leaving the game via hook instead.
The problem with invoking the idea of "looking at why people are going next" is that if you ask ten people why, they'll give you eleven different answers, and eight of them will be nonsense. There's no objective measure of what supposedly makes the game miserable- there isn't even a unified measure of what most people would agree makes the game miserable in their opinion.
Still, all of that is a moot point, because obviously BHVR are trying to improve the experience, that's what the entire back half of the roadmap is for. It's just very, very silly to be arguing in favour of lesser DC penalties when people going next is a big chunk of what actually harms the game.
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Maybe no one wants to read what you have to say since its so ######### long? Also why would you expect anyone on forums to know how the dc penalty works? Like i said, no one here dcs from any matches intentionally, besides you clearly, you must really hate the game if ur dcing 5 or more times, which you've seemed to have proven.
Regarding the gen speed, that misinformation is something i learned from a Kyto video explaining what the red bar means when stacking. It actually does both, the speed increases (Obviously), which in turn increases item consumption rate. Obviously the gen is being repaired faster, otherwise there would be no point to stacking, which there already isn't a point in doing so since splitting pressure is better.
Someone needs to read up on dbd wiki, get to it chump
Edit: i blocked you so i can escape the nonsense you spit
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Nope, other games are completely relevant. If the vast majority of the gaming community and all other asymm games don't have these issues that you claim DC penalties need to combat, especially DC penalties this severe, it is completely relevant. You just don't want to talk about it because it highlights your flawed logic and you'd rather stay on your straw horse.
There also is an objective measure of why people are going next lol You can attempt to state that SoloQ does that for every reason under the sun, but that is false and there are common majority reasons why Survs either DC or go next. There is also a clear cut reason why slugging has become so common place that BHVR is scrambling to fix it.
I find your unwillingness to talk about why the game clearly isn't fun for SoloQ players or Killers and how to actually fix that, not conducive to an actual discussion. You can stay in fantasy land, I'm not going to reply to you anymore lol
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LOL, Why would I expect anyone on the forums to know the game mechanics to which they keep trying to butt in and talk about to shill for? Yea IDK why I expected that either and clearly a lot of you don't know how the game actually works and how it actually plays lol My bad, I thought people who spend all day on a video game forum would know about said video game. Oooops.
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Well, the problem with that first part is, we're not building a game from scratch. DBD already has DC penalties that work the way they do- if we're talking about them, then it is necessary to justify changing them, which so far you haven't done. The burden of proof is on you here, not me, because you're the one pitching a change- or at least implying that a change should be made.
As to the objective measure of why people are going next… there really isn't. There obviously isn't an objective one, but assuming you just mean a commonly accepted one… what is it? I've seen a hundred different reasons up to and including just not liking whichever killer is being played. What would you say the reason is?
Same for slugging. I've seen a variety of reasons given and a lot of them are like, observably just wrong, not even up for debate. Which one are you referring to?
I'm not unwilling to talk about why the game isn't fun for various players, that's just not what we started with. We started with talking about the DC penalty, which is what I've been attempting to continue talking about.
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We read (bar the ravings against swf parts your fond of) yet you haven't answered anything. The sever penalties only happen to repeated DCs…which is normal in any game that has such things. Hell the first penalty is like 10 seconds for those who actually have a once in a while incident and the next is a couple minutes. How does someone get to a 24 hr penalty without doing so on purpose or KNOWING they have so bad internet that they're more than likely to DC? Its pretty merciful and not "competitive" however you mean that {since you know, you gave no definition on that}.
Nothing you've said also says where you or anyone draws the line at acceptable, you just want it lessened but don't even say to what extent.
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I am making a serious point here, that the ridiculousness of those two statements together is so wild that it can be debunked only by expressing wordless confusion at the obvious contradiction, while also also allowing for eloquent, well structured arguments against it. I thought combining those two would make for excellent comedy, but I also want it clear I wasn't just spamming
One such argument is "if one side can win with a dogshit strategy 90% of the time, maybe that side really has no right to complain about balance until the other side receives compensatory buffs so they don't lose against what you have described as dogshit 90% of the time"
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Mass slugging against any below S tier killers is mostly the survivors' fault, they don't need to be handheld in such situations, instead they need to improve.
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