http://dbd.game/killswitch
Faster Bleedout vs Basekit Unbreakable For Stopping Slugging
Comments
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I just explained it to you. There is a whole video explaining it here:
But the general gist is:
- Patch after patch of buffing basekit things for survivors around being hooked/unhooked
- Having dozens of meta perks that are related to survivors getting hooked/unhooked
- Having killer perks around hooking being nerfed patch after patch
- Basekit timer increase to hooks being 70 seconds
- The fact that there are farm more anti-tunnel/hook based perks than there are anti-slugging perks. And the anti-slugging ones aren't that good
- Patch after patch of not addressing the speed of generators in relation to how long it takes to chase survivors
- Having to worry about flashlight saves
- Having to worry about pallet saves
- Having to worry about flashbang
- which is bugged right now BTW to be uncounterable
- Having to worry about sabotage
- Having to worry about body blocks
- You get the same generator pressure leaving them on the ground that you do hooking them
- The fact that it takes 20 seconds to hook a survivor
- Its more fun as a killer because you get constant chases.
6 -
DS, DH, BT, OTR, sabo, deliverance, reassurance, shoulder, 70 second hook stages, camp timer, bugged/uncounterable flashbangs, flashlight/pallet saves, 20 seconds gone when 5 gens can be done in 5 minutes, body blocks, etc.
What did killers get in return? Almost every hook gen regress perk nerfed.
The devs are literally trying so hard to make slugging as meta as possible.
2 -
Not gonna watch a video, sorry, but I'll look at that list for sure. Going point by point-
1: So, this is the big one that I always take issue with. There's very little in the game that the devs have buffed which takes effect JUST from hooking/unhooking. You specify basekit here, which means there's nothing that affects the killer without them playing into it- everything that does take effect JUST from hooking is a perk.
2: See the first point, again. How many of them ACTUALLY revolve around hooking/unhooking on its own, and how many of them ALSO require the killer to try and chase the person who was just unhooked, or stick around the hook to force stage progression? The ones that are left after that point are also hardly so overwhelmingly powerful you need to avoid them at all costs. Something like, say, Resurgence is a damn good perk, but you as a killer don't need to be afraid of it.
3: When it comes to killer perks, I'm a little more sympathetic, but I am also kinda forced to ask… which ones? Basically just Pop and Pain Res, right? Other hook-related perks have even been buffed, stuff like Furtive Chase- albeit that was a while ago now. It's only two hook related killer perks that were nerfed, one of them is still the strongest killer perk in the game by a wide margin, and neither of them are necessary for the default value you get out of hooking someone.
4: The hook timer increase is a placebo. It's not affecting your ability to generate pressure after a hook, and if it is affecting that, it's affecting it positively because it could push survivors to stick on their gens for longer. All it takes is for you to get an unexpectedly early down and you're coming out ahead in that exchange, not them.
5: On this one, we will have a subjective disagreement, I think. In my opinion, the anti-slug perks are way more powerful at their job than the anti-tunnel perks, they just require more teamwork and aren't as popular. Not that it matters- just don't tunnel and there are in fact zero anti-tunnel perks actually affecting you outside of the occasional bodyblock.
6: Generator speeds in relation to catching survivors isn't really that big of an issue right now, and it's strange to bring that up in relation to hooking not being worth it- getting a hook is how you slow down the generators, by forcing survivor reactions.
7: Flashlight saves are counterable 99.9% of the time.
8: Pallet saves can be a little more dangerous, but all you need to do is push whoever's loitering far enough away and they can't get back in time to get the save. Hardly reason enough on its own to avoid hooking altogether even if it's actually a present risk.
9: Like the last point, flashbangs can be kind of annoying, especially when they're bugged (though that does seem to be fixed now), but once you're hit once you know to expect it and the risk lessens severely.
10 & 11: There are more than enough hooks for a sabotage or bodyblock to not actually impede you that much nine times out of ten, but also, you can just drop that survivor when it becomes apparent you can't hook them. That's a massively different situation than hooking itself being weak.
12: Slugging being as good as hooking doesn't mean hooking is weak. I do disagree on this point, though, hooking gives a sharper time pressure, fully immobilises the survivor, and directly progresses your objective much quicker as a healthy survivor on deathhook is a lot more vulnerable than a healthy survivor on the last minute of their bleedout timer, so it is better than slugging even disregarding perks.
13: Twenty seconds is a pretty severe estimate, there are plenty of times it takes me about five. Besides, you make up for that with the extra pressure you get from the hook.
14: Subjective point and doesn't mean anything about the strength of hooking even if it were objective.
We've only got a few things on this list that are even worth talking about, and their impact on the strength of hooking is both pretty low and hasn't substantially changed for pretty much the game's whole lifespan. Some stuff like sabotaging even got weaker over recent years.
I can sympathise with some things on this list being annoying to deal with, especially if you get people trying it back to back, but they aren't actually balance related. That's just subjectively annoying game experiences. If slugging were made riskier, you wouldn't actually be forced into a bad situation, you'd just be going back to the thing that's been perfectly good this whole time.
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I agree that faster or longer bleed out doesn’t really discourage slugging, and would only encourage more players to rely on it because a longer/shorter bleed out doesn’t make the tactic less risky.
And frankly the mindset of the game going in this direction truly worries me.
If the overall desired scenario for a player is to completely incapacitate their opponent so their opponent can never use any perks or even walk, it raises some serious questions.
First, what incentive do players have to choose a role where they are stripped of their ability to use perks? How is the role worth playing at that point if your expectations of the game are to become essentially one-shot from being downed for up to 4min until death or until someone picks you up in which case they are downed and then you try to pick someone else up. It becomes its own gameplay loop where your main objective shifts into something that does not passively push you closer to your main winning objective, unlike your opponent.
Second, if the ideal is to have the opponents entirely incapacitated as opposed to hooked, doesn’t that make gameplay even more overly restrictive? Killer perks are now restricted to only what helps them with slugging and survivor perks are now restricted to only what counters slugging. Perk variety becomes even slimmer.
Third, the ability to bypass counterplay and entire game mechanics by simply not engaging sets a slippery slope: the game then becomes less about skillful interactions of playing around your opponents abilities and instead disables them from having any completely. The game becomes less about what you can do and more about what they can’t do.
If the goal is to avoid challenge altogether, then the spirit of competitive play is lost. A game where survivors are reduced to NPC behavior isn’t fun for anyone, and if it’s the desired outcome then it makes no sense for bots not to replace SoloQ instead. We should be rewarding dynamic, skillful play for both roles, not simply encouraging tactics that shut down options for everyone. Ultimately, relying on slugging as a win condition undermines the challenge and long-term enjoyment of the game as a whole.
That being said, here are some of my suggestions to help with slugging that have both a “carrot and a stick.”
— Incentivize hooks more. Maybe in the form of a base-kit slow down that does not activate if the same survivor is hooker consecutively. This rewards killers for going out their way to chase multiple survivors, and offers a chance at more perk variety so they don’t feel they must equip a form of slowdown as it will already be base-kit.
— Make recovery speed faster. I think that having a recovery speed increase based upon proximity of the killer to the slugged survivor would be beneficial, and I do not agree it could be abused as the killer still decides if it even activates. The farther the killer moves away from the survivor the faster the recovery. It doesn’t give you an automatic UB at the end, they still have to be picked up by someone else. But if survivors spread out, which is the proper counter to slugging, then slugging all 4 becomes more risky and difficult but not still impossible. It only activates once the killer has left the slugged survivors radius. (Like a reverse anti-camp on hooks)
Slugging is a base-kit ability that is not balanced like every other ability/tool/perk in the game, so I’m not against a form of base-kit counter. But I don’t want to make slugging entirely ineffective as slugging counters flashlights, so it’s important that any kind of changes made to counter slugging ensure that the right kind of slugging isn’t disabled.
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The fact that you mention furtive chase as a perk shows me exactly what i need to know. That perk is horrible. But yes, pop, pain res, grim embrace, dead mans switch, ruin is still horrible, surge is still bad. And so on. But lets run through the responses here.
- Basekit BT, Anti face camp, yes they are addressing "unfun gameplay" but they still factor in regardless of whether you like it or not.
- The list is much larger than you realize, wouldn't i be a fool to not attempt to counter something i will see in nearly every single game? But i'll list them off from the video
- The perks themselves
- Aftercare
- Babysitter
- Background player
- Bloodrush
- Boil Over
- Borrowed time
- Deliverance
- Breakout
- Cameraderie
- Dead hard
- Decisive Strike
- Deliverance
- Fast track
- Flashbang
- Flip flop
- Kindred
- No one left behind
- Off the record
- Power struggle
- Reassurance
- Resurgence
- SAboteur
- Second wind
- Shoulder the burden
- Slippery meat
- We'll make it
- Wicked
- Then if you look at the ones you see every few games
- Background player
- Boil over
- Deliverance
- Flipflop
- Powerstruggle
- Reassurance
- Resurgence
- We'll make it
- Then there is the pure meta ones you see in literally every single game
- Dead hard
- Decisive Strike
- Flashbang
- Off the reocord
- Shoulder the Burden
- The perks themselves
- Many perks were nerfed
- Pop
- Pain res
- Grim Embrace
- Dead man's Switch
- The fact that you mention furtive chase just shows exactly what i'm talking about, you obviously don't play killer that much if you are mentioning a horrible perk like that and saying "look it got buffed"
- It is not a placebo, good survivor teams will wait until the last possible second to save, giving them a solid 20 seconds extra per survivor for a total of 80 extra seconds, which is nearly a full gen.
- The anti slug perks are weaker
- Unbreakable is comparable to DS, but is actually weaker, because you can immediately be downed afterwards and it does nothing, DS stuns you and gives the survivor distance and time, but again, one time use and it is done.
- The only other one worth anything is WGLF, but WGLF is not as good as you think, it gives endurance sure, but the point of slugging isn't to camp the slug, you use it for pressure, you leave the slugged guy alone. And the extra healing time isn't relevant either because the survivor is recovering, they already are likely at 95% recovered anyway, so it just turns your 2 second pickup time to 1 second, not that big of a deal.
- None of the other "anti-slug" perks are really worth it.
- It is an issue, have you watched a comp game recently? The game is balanced around a chase with a survivor lasting 45 seconds, most don't know this but the devs have stated it. But that is the chase time, you still have:
- Finding the survivor probably takes ~10 seconds
- Chasing the survivor takes 45 seconds
- Picking up the survivor and hooking them takes 20 seconds
- Finding the next survivor takes ~10 seconds
- For a total of 10 + 45 + 20 + 10 = 85 seconds. There goes 2-3 gens in your first chase. And then your second one is another gen, and then your 3rd is the last gen. Congrats, you have 3 hooks.
- Flashlight saves are not counterable 99% of the time because the survivors who are playing for flashlight saves KNOW they should go down in a spot where the killer can't face a wall, sure you could spend a few seconds looking around for a survivor going for a save, but, oh look, you just spend another 10-15 seconds now looking around for someone who may or may not be there, congrats, you just lost 3 gens again.
- See above around time spent
- Flashbangs are bugged right now and 100% uncounterable because even if you face a wall they can drop the flashbang inside the killer model and it will still blind them, there is no excuse here.
- See the above perks, all it takes is a single sabo, and then a single body block and the survivor wiggles off and your 45 second chase just meant nothing. The amount of effort you spend downing that survivor is greater than the effort spent saving them. Same for flashbangs, flashlights and pallet saves.
- Same as above
- Hooking only gives "time pressure" if you think about hook states, but again it takes a survivor the same amount of time to go pick a survivor up from the ground, that it does to unhook them. And at minimum they are probably going to take a solid 30 seconds to do that. And with a 4 minute bleed out timer, that means at most you are downing them 8 times. That's only if they are close by for the save, and if they are, slugging is stronger when survivors group up. On top of that, if you slug you aren't spending the 20 seconds to hook the survivor, so you can immediately start pressuring another survivor whereas the 20 seconds gives the other survivors 60 seconds of gen progress
- 20 seconds is nearly minimum and most people really don't think about this.
- 2.7 wipe animation
- 3 second pickup animation
- 10 seconds to walk to a hook (calculated based on average distance between hooks, sometimes it is less, sometimes more, but average is 10 seconds)
- 1.5 second hooking animation
- 2.7 + 3 + 10 + 1.5 = 17.2 seconds
- And this is assuming you pick them up literally immediately, which, as we just discussed, you can't do because you need to look out for someone coming to save. So in most games you are probably looking at around 25-30 seconds when you know flashlights are in play, or the survivor goes down under a pallet.
- It is subjective, but it does matter, and is something to look at.
I strongly suggest you watch the video, it is solid and talks literally about these things and even about the empathy. It recognizes that survivors don't like being slugged, but also points out that we need to look at WHY this is happening, and not just bandaid it.
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Okay, I'm gonna tackle the big list of perks last, since I think it's best to get some of my other points out of the way first. I'm also going to keep a numbered list but the list won't necessarily correlate one to one with the order of your points, just to ensure nobody's confused here.
1: So, point one is tied to your point one: It's not about whether or not I "like" the basekit BT or the AFC system, nor whether they exist to counter unfun gameplay or not. The point is that they do not activate JUST from hooking. They activate (or are relevant, in the case of BT) for their own distinct situations that just involve the hook.
If you hook someone, but you're across the map when they're unhooked because you left straight away to get into another chase, then neither of these systems activate. It's not that these systems make hooking weaker, it's that they make tunnelling and camping respectively weaker. You don't actually have to do those things just because you decided to engage with the basic mechanic of hooking people so they genuinely do not count when it comes to talking about hooking being weak and slugging being necessary.
2: When I talk about hook perks being buffed, the point isn't really how good they are. Furtive Chase is like… fine? It has some pretty viable builds, it's pretty middle of the road as far as strength goes, but that isn't the point- the point is that the narrative of hook perks only ever being nerfed into the ground doesn't really bear out, and also that hook perks aren't required for hooks to give value.
Pain Res, Grim Embrace, and DMS are all still very strong, not even just perfectly good. The nerf that Grim Embrace got in particular was so minuscule that I legitimately forgot it happened. Sure, yes, in a vacuum, these perks did in fact get negative changes… that did not significantly move the needle on how good they are. Hell, DMS is arguably quite a bit better depending on how you use it because that wasn't a nerf, it was a sidegrade/rework, that's why I didn't initially include it.
Surge and Ruin aren't hook perks.
3: I want to talk about the hook timer for a second here, next. I always find it baffling that people are so quick to say that teams will leave people on the hook for as long as possible to maximise generator repair as a reason that the hook timer hurts the killer, because… what are you doing during that time?
If you get a down before they try to leave their gen, then you're pushing the team onto the back foot and forcing them to reset over and over, because multiple people are threatened at once. It's kind of the best situation you can be in as killer because there's basically no downtime between cycles of occupying three survivors at once.
4: Leading on from the last point, I also want to point out that your calculation about losing generators misses something extremely vital, which is that even if you lose three gens in the first chase, getting a hook slows down the remaining two because not everyone can be on gens if you're occupying one while another is on the hook and a third has to go save.
Obviously, you can have bad matches where you struggle to get work done, that's fairly normal in an online game. In general, though, gens only fly when survivors aren't occupied, and hooks are the best way of occupying them. I'd even support some changes that help out a killer's early game if it's done right, but that's a little outside the scope of this conversation- that's not exactly changed recently, it's always been how the game is for killers. It has no bearing on how good hooks are right now in the current state of the game.
5: Alright, let's look at that list of perks.
So, right off the bat, we're still including perks here that aren't just hook related. Babysitter, Blood Rush, Borrowed Time, Camaraderie, Decisive Strike, Reassurance and Shoulder the Burden do not belong on this list, they do not activate just from the hook- if you can hook someone, play completely normally, and never see the perk, it's just bloating out this list without actually being relevant to the conversation.
Some of these perks are also stretching extremely hard. I think the most egregious example is Aftercare- not only is that perk not exactly frightening for the killer, but you also counter that perk by hooking the user. That perk could not have that downside and still be completely fine from the killer perspective, mind you, but in the current state of the game, it's particularly out of place in this conversation.
The fact remains that the vast majority of these aren't things the killer needs to try and avoid. If the survivor has, I don't know, Kindred, Resurgence, Boil Over (outside of unhookable builds, at least) and Wicked… who cares? Sure, those effects are pretty good, I even run some of those perks myself when I play survivor, but I can't say I've had many games where I've looked at the perks in the end screen and thought "Damn, I lost that match because they had Kindred".
I do also feel the need to point out, these things aren't really new. There's a couple new ones, StB and the new Blood Rush effect happened fairly recently, but by and large most of these things have been in the game in some form for years. There's been no huge shift that would make all of these things substantially more problematic now than they would've been before, so the idea that hooking isn't worth it still doesn't make any sense to me.
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At this point, saying DS is not a "hook perk" there's no point in having a discussion at because you just live in a different reality. I suggest watching that video and try and have a little empathy here for killer players. Really try, go watch some games from killer streamers, go play killer for a while and really see how it feels. Because without that empathy there really isn't any point in continuing this discussion.
All i'll say at this point is, i hope you consume a little bit of content, try playing killer and just have a little empathy for your fellow player and good luck to you.
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I do play killer. That's the perspective all of this is coming from.
As a quick correction, I said DS is not JUST a hook perk. It's a perk that you can hook and guarantee you'll never see because it actually activates on something else that includes hooking.
8 -
Like i said, good luck to you.
6 -
Yeah, it's really pointless to even discuss it with these people. By arguing against all these Survivor perks, they're just reiterating what Pulsar's been saying, whether they want to admit it or not: They choose slugging because it's the path of least resistance. That's literally all there is to it. And I doubt any kinds of buffs or nerfs for either side would fix that kind of mentality…
9 -
probably a bunch of survivor nerfs across the board in the strongest areas med kits, sabots, not being able to synergize stacking second chances or making them similar to ds where you can only use it once, it’s only fair if the stats shift too much. I personally think ripping out slugging as a whole where you can’t bleed people out nor leave them down too long can in the long run do nothing but benefit killer to get the appropriate buffs where needed. It’s hard to balance around I imagine bc you’re negating a huge portion of intended gameplay, and inflating KR artificially. Then they can actually look at which killers are truly suffering from not being able to create enough pressure after an adjustment period(likely 2 months of data collection) and adjust gen times; and kits around that as well. I by no means think survivor would make it out of such a big change unscathed.
0 -
Well, why shouldn't they be rewarded for downing survivors? Furthermore, why should the downed survivors get a free pick-up after their missplay? Maybe I'm missing something.
1 -
We're not talking about a reward just for downing survivors, we're talking about a reward for leaving that survivor on the ground for an extended period of time.
If we reward players for doing that, then players are going to do that more, which means the aggressive slugging people are complaining about will get worse.
8 -
And that's why my proposal is to send the survivor to a hook if they wish. But aparently that is an unjustified reward, while standing again by the grace of god is not.
1 -
I mean… yeah, it is?
If the survivor goes to a hook, the killer doesn't have to spend any time hooking them but still gets the benefits of having them on a hook. Maybe that system wouldn't activate perks, so that's a small thing, but it's still a situation that's better for the killer than them still being on the ground.
If you knew that you could ignore someone on the ground completely and the only thing they can do about it is send themselves to a hook, doesn't that make slugging more attractive to you?
Now imagine that if you left them on the ground, something negative would happen after long enough. Wouldn't that push you not to leave people on the ground for longer than absolutely necessary?
4 -
There might be one thing, actually: just tie all of the base kit regression effects to having a recent hook state. Almost all of the killers doing this are absolutely obsessed with regression.
So, put an icon on the UI with an, I dunno 60?, second timer that counts down. Getting a hook resets the timer, and the icon deactivates when it hits 0. It can even start the match active and counting down.
While it's active, killer kicks are empowered, and get the 5% chunk, and anti gen tap is applied to that gen. If it's disabled, the gen doesn't lose the 5%, and survivors can just tap to stop the regression.
Make them earn the free regression they were given by hooking.
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There are 3 other players, you know. They could move their asses and pick their mate up, for example.
And as I said, my proposal is just an option. You can wait on the floor to be rescued or be sent to hook if waiting for help takes too long or if everyone is already on the floor, so there is no more toxic bleeding out. In my book, a fairer solution than being knocked down and just getting up on your own.
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Faster bleedout will be used to grief the match. Funny to see someone asking for the 4% to be removed and for faster bleedout at the same time (Not saying I see someone but surely it exists) Plus, faster bleedout will buff sluggingBecause lots of mechanics are situational.
4% because there's already one survivor dead, 4 gens left to go, and another survivor went down? Not a problem, get the match over.
4% because there's one gen left to do, other survivor is in chase? Some people have a problem with the randomness of it, but again the reason is clear.
4% because you were first downed and are rage quitting? Clear problem.
Same with slugging. If I get slugged because I'm in a pallet, the killer is rushing to stop a gen, or there is a nearby survivor, not a problem. Being slugged here is no more of an issue than being on a hook.
Getting slugged and left to bleedout either because:
A: The killer has knockout
B: Slugging for the 4k
C: The killer is so vastly better than the survivors and is just toying with them
D: Killer is BMing and just keeping people stuck in the game
All of those are clear problems. We call all of them 'slugging', just as we call all 4% kobes which confuses the issues, but there are clear differences between when the mechanic serves a functional purpose and when it ruins the game.
4 -
The ability to coordinate that kind of pickup and confirm the killer isn't nearby to loop back around and make the situation even worse for the team is very difficult for solo queue, I'd say some kind of basekit thing to alleviate it would be appropriate.
And, sure, it would make the annoying situation very slightly less annoying because it wouldn't take as long. It'd also make that annoying situation more common because the killer would be rewarded more for it than they are now.
As I said at the top of the thread, this isn't really a post specifically about basekit Unbreakable being the only solution, there are other things to look at. Whatever we look at, though, it has to be a negative situation for killer or it'll actually make slugging worse.
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True bleedouts don't count towards adepts and challenges and does lower the rating of the devout emblem but it still rewards killers with 2.5k BP for no one escapes bonus. And killers can still pip up with bleeding people out if they have earned points in other emblem areas. If 1 gets hatch for example killer doesn't get no one escaped bonus, if they bleed out they do because regardless of how they died they didn't escape. It's not called "sacrificed all bonus" it's "no one escaped bonus". It's not called 4S (4 sacrifices) it's called 4k (4 kills).
I'm not saying your wrong but as you point out, the in-game manual is very wishy washy. Objective is sacrifice but mori and egc time count as sacrificed even tho they are not. That says to me the objective isn't to sacrifice as the manual states, it's actually to kill. So from a certain point of view bleedout as a way to kill and stop survivors escaping is completing the killers objective.
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So false and if it were the case pain res wouldnt be the most picked perk by a factor of 2.
Along with every other killer HOOK perk being at the top of pick rate.Get this garbage false opinion outta here
Post edited by ChuckingWong on4 -
You should read my other post where i list out everything pretty clearly. But no need to be so hostile. It is true that pain res is a highly picked perk, but we are currently in the middle of a meta shift.
For example, if slugging is such a huge problem and so prevalent then why isn't knockout a highly used perk? Because the meta shift has fully happened yet, but it is happening currently and immanent.
3 -
Because you dont need knockout to slug.
SMH the posters head.
Do you play dbd at all? This is a serious question.4 -
I really feel like you are being extremely hostile for no reason, so at this point i'm going to disengage. If you'd like to have a discussion around this topic i would be happy to do so, otherwise good luck out there!
3 -
It seems like if they wanted bleedouts to count as kills they would have added it to the list that they updated last patch. This list doesn't mention anything at all about "standing there doing nothing" as a way to kill a survivor.
1 -
You have been a saint here in this thread trying to explain to people. Unfortunatly you can not show the blind how to see. As I said in the first post of this thread, there are many, many good sources of information on this subject but some people are not looking to understand why Slugging is happening more, nor are they willing to accept the reasons stated why it is happening. They are just looking to complain purely to complain. You can not reason with them. As you have well seen some people are just unwilling to listen even if spoon fed all the answers. It is a waste of time. I gave up in this thread for that reason. The problem is, time and time again the devs see fit to give ear to these types of people. Mindless complaining should not be rewarded.
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I feel I've made it quite clear why slugging's happening in my posts here, I've brought it up a few times.
It seems to me that you and I disagree on why slugging is happening, which really isn't the same thing as one of us not looking to understand it.
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You have made several posts attempting to defend positions that are indefensible.
Additionally there are a plethora of reasons slugging is happening. The list that was given by @Reinami is not an opinion. It is a fact. These things do not exist as figments of the imagination and are in fact things killers have to deal with. You and others try to argue "it's not thaaaaaaat bad" and i'm sorry but you are wrong. It IS in fact that bad and all of those things together are the reason slugging will continue to become more popular.
Is slugging perfect? No. Do i think survivors could bleed out faster? Yeah, for sure. Do I think the instances where the killer is forced to keep multiple survivors on ground for minutes while they wait for the hooked survivor to hit the second stage is good? Hell no (when all survivors are either hooked or slugged the killer should be able to mori all the slugged survivors so everyone can move on to the next match). The general hatred for slugging is stupid though. It is a chase centric playstyle, with a far more natural focus on slowdown. The slowdown comes from knockout rather than forced gen regression perks.There is nothing at all wrong with the playstyle. The mechanics surrounding it could be improved but the game has been repeatedly pushed in this direction for long enough now, that one can say with near certainty that this is an intentional decision from the developers. When I play Killer I am DEFINITLY haveing more fun than before. Games are so much less stressful and I can focus more on the part of the game that is the most fun, the chases.
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I'm not gonna jump in the middle of the other arguments, but I support survivors picking themselves up on their own if they can only do it when 50% of the remaining survivors are down. So, 2/4, 2/3 or 1/2. To me, that seems very balanced and fair since it would counter most situations where the killer player slugs people to grief them, but it wouldn't mean that every single time you walk away (or are lured away) from a slug they can get up for free.
0 -
People said very similar things about hatch before the hatch rework.
Going into a lobby with keys, and the intention to get everyone out with the hatch was absolutely a thing, and it bypassed the entire exit gate/end game. People only cared about the win, and were skipping the clearly intended gameplay loop of finishing all the gens then exiting through the gates, with hatch as an absolute last resort.
They finally patched out that issue and now people are forced to play for exit gates if they want more than one person out.
The exact same thing is happening with slugging right now. People going into the match with the express intention of not hooking, and wanting to win by slugging everyone to bleed out. Skipping the entire hook gameplay loop, which is clearly the intended gameplay design.
And similarly, it's not a problem to slug situationally (as a last resort), but if l when it becomes "always slug, all the time, no exceptions" that's a problem the devs need to address. The game is designed around hooks, the lore requires sacrifices, and the devs should be putting something similar in place to hatch rework to prevent this being a "meta/5 gens/win the game" strategy people can decide to do from the lobby.
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It's not standing there doing nothing because the killer still has to chase and hit the survivor twice to down them and then actively keep them down (prevent healing) to get the kill. Ensuring a survivor bleeds out takes more action from the killer than a Mori where they just press a button to kill. Also proxi camping a hook while the survivor slowly dies could be considered standing there doing nothing to get a sacrifice but it still counts.
It does also specify in the manual that
"the survivors will be attempting to repair 5 generators to power the 2 exit gates and make their escape. Killers should do everything in their power to stop them."
If bleeding them out stops them (which it does) then the killer is doing as the manual suggests, everything in their power to stop them.
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The list Reinami gave is absolutely an opinion, as are my posts. We're all sharing our opinions on this topic.
For the record, I do not hate slugging and I even want it to still be doable. This thread isn't even one to pitch an idea for how to fix slugging, though I did make one of those, I just wanted to point out that one of the common proposed solutions would be a bad idea that'd make the problem worse.
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Many killer mains and (even many survivor mains) that understand WHY slugging happens have said that the solution isn't to punish killers for slugging (as a basekit unbreakable would do) but instead to give them a reason not to. Most of the perks that would encourage a killer to hook a survivor rather than just leaving them slugged have been nerfed. When you need to add pressure, just leaving a survivor slugged offers more pressure than taking the time to pick them up, risk a save, and carry them to a hook. THIS is what needs to be fixed.
I do not slug, because I do not find it fun. That doesn't mean I don't see where I'd be better off doing so overall.3 -
I've said this in a few other spots in this thread so I risk repeating myself, but I don't really see this as a particularly compelling point.
Most of the reasons people give for why hooking isn't compelling any more don't really bear out if you scrutinise them for a second. It's a handful of small annoyances mixed with things that have been true for years and haven't substantially changed in recent years.
The reason people slug is because it's easier than hooking. Part of that is just that most people aren't prepared for slugging, I've said before that anti-slug perks would demolish this gameplan if people brought them en masse, but even when considering that we have to remember that the stated value of slugging here is taking away interaction and back-and-forth counterplay for the safest, most risk-free gameplan possible- no saves, no sabotages, no chance of protection from lingering nearby or repeatedly targeting the same person.
Hooks are plenty rewarding. What needs to change is that slugging needs to be riskier without demanding every survivor player run specific perks every match to make it risky, and then a few small things changed here and there about hook-denial strategies since there's some issues there. Give the killer collision on pickup again, make Flashbang more obvious (though the audio bug does seem to be fixed now, at least), probably rework some perks like Boil Over and Power Struggle. Nothing huge, just that if you're already tackling a big problem you might as well tackle some related small ones.
That risk doesn't have to be Unbreakable, though. I'm sure there's other options to explore as well.
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survivors have gone mad. killer will impose any attempt to change slugging in any capacity. you made hooking unrewarding. You fix it. Survivor mains.
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Oh I agree to some extent, but you can't deny that most perks that require you to HOOK a survivor to get value have been nerfed and either aren't used or not used as much. Even Pain Res, while it's still kind of meta, can only be used once per survivor.. so once I have done my 4 Pain Res procs… why should a killer waste time hooking (Again, I personally don't find slugging to be fun, so i don't do it unless I know another survivor is lurking near by for an easy save) when it's far more efficient to slug and run?
Again, what it boils down to is WHY should survivors waste time hooking? For BP, sure but the killers who care about BP that's enough of an incentive for us already. Those who slug every match, odds are most of them don't care about the BP loss. Plus first game I did in 2v8 ended with the two killers BOTH WSing a bot on the hatch. A freakin' BOT and they were wasting time BMing… Killers that want to play badly are going to do so regardless of any changes because that's the point. Something like basekit unbreakable would just be more opportunities for them to slug you again…. and again… and again… and again.. and again.0 -
It is standing there doing nothing. It's the same as when survivors don't do generators and hide, eventually the game ends because one side didn't take action, and that side is not rewarded for their efforts. The game is doing everything possible to tell the killer not to bleed out survivors.
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Remove bots and finisher mori, honestly those are the main things I feel will help. At this point since I do not dc often ill eat my 45 seconds to get person 4 chance to escape. 45 seconds is way better than 4 mins.
Or even better yet the last 2 should be able to surrender and not be giving a penalty. Final idea let the hatch spawn in 3 mins under slug survivor or less they closer they are to bleed out then once that happen one gate is half powered for thr 4th to try escape.
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I figured it out:
Survivors start with the ability to pick themselves up from the dying state. Once they have been hooked once, this ability deactivates for the rest of the trial.
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and if the killer slugs everyone and doesn't hook at all? then what?
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then the survivors can just pick themselves up. the point is to disallow slugging without hooking.
another way of describing it: "Survivors get basekit Unbreakable. Killers get a new reward for hooking: hooking deactivates survivor's basekit Unbreakable"
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kill by your hand is mori. the problem is they cannot write mori because there are various types of mori's. that segment lists or attempts to list all forms of mori in the game.
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How about buff hooking for killers and nerf survivor hook perks
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Which survivor hook perks?
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Bill saving us again! Borrowed Time now Unbreakable! Make another of his awesome perks not great. Very strange place the game is in once again.
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I think you know which ones, come on they're obviously talking about the ones that deter the tunneling tactic where killers run just far enough way to be able to make it right back to the hook that just completely runs over most soloq/not 4 man teams. That's a no from me, personally. I would be willing to counter with looking at flashbangs, flashlights, Sabo perks, and even some healing perks, which also hurt their average killer base. By no means do I think hook perks for slugging is a good trade deal.
I think you're problem areas if you make any significant changes to slugging will be the ones I mentioned above, because it's the first things the survivor role will flock to and try to capitalize off the changes with. If I was "toxic" it's what I would do. If you want to encourage more chases around tiles, spreading hooks, and balance around maps and every killers abilities to generate pressure with slugging miminal/non existent, or tunneling, these will be your survivor problem mechanics if you change it(slugging) and don't look at those things the dynamics are going to shift too heavily on the high side. While this will alleviate gripes on both sides for the average playerbase, and in general just make killers who are trying to "play fair" have an easier time doing that, all the anti tunnel perks affect them significantly less(I'm not saying that anti-tunnel perks don't affect them, but it's a much smaller degree, I say reward THEM instead. It is what it is survivors are probably going to lose some things. I think you should look at those. We can go into details on how to change them in another post, but yeah they'll need a change or we're just running in circles with game direction.
Post edited by HeroLives on1 -
But yet killers are rewarded by bleeding out via the no one escaped bonus. If survivors avoid gens and get auto sacrifed due to server end timer they don't get a survived the longest reward lol. They get nothing for the efforts of doing nothing. The killer does get a reward for killing all survivors even if it's via bleed out. 2.5k BP bonus for all survivors dead... This includes bleed out. Remove that bonus and you have a point but while that reward remains there is a reward for bleeding out if it contributes to all 4 survivors dying.
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If a killer is playing for BPs, bleeding out survivors is still the worst way to get them. 2.5K for no one escapes? How many BPs are earned by hooking and sacrificing or mori? It's a lot more than 2.5K, and you still get the 2.5K if you actually kill everyone this way.
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True the killer does get more BP for hooking but if the killer is struggling to get hooks then bleeding 1 person out and hooking the rest could be the way to go. I play tombstone Myers alot and the BP rewards are often pretty bad because there's minimal hooks, minimal chases due to stalking, and people don't last long. bleeding people out with tombstone Myers makes very little difference to BP, still better to bleed them out than to not get the 4k
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Yeah, I agree. Faster Bleedout combined with selfsacrifice, while it would helps to adress slugging for the 4k scenario, it would probably encourage killers to slug more overall. On the other hand a basekit unbreakable might be too abusable in certain situations, when killer players are required to tactical slug.
I personally think what is necessary is a mechanic that is not influenced by perks too much. And that would be a timer which starts as soon as the survivor has maximal recovered. When the timer is up they can either pick themselves up or sacrifize themselves.
This would make slugging limited, but still tactical usable for killers, open survivors a way out in dragged out slugging for the 4k scenarios. Of course such a suggestion is quicker said than actually done. Hitting the right spot for the timer would be hard.Honestly, I don't share the argument too much, that killers, who go in with a slug strategy do it, because hooks aren't that much rewarding. But even though, if it's the case, then I don't think that making hooks more rewarding would make people slug less. As soon as people get used to a game strategy and it's effectiveness they have no reason to change it. I remember, when the "No heal" meta came up. After nerfing healing, survivors started to use a strategy which would have worked well before that nerf.
And it only became less popular, after the strategy became less efficient, not because other strategies became more reliable.3
