http://dbd.game/killswitch
Ghoul changes i would like
Before you kill me, or worse downvote me hear me out. Ive been playing ghoul for the last couple weeks and ive been loving the killer, the skill ceilling is so freaking high its been a blast to play. There are some issues i ran into while playing this killer tho which i would like to discuss. The main way ive been playing him is body Block ken, which is a fancy way of using his power as anti loop by bodystocking pallets mid loop. This is hard to consistently pull off but very doable. There is still frustration in the community about ghouls vault speed which i can get behind. I think making this speed slower( around the speed of wesker) but giving compensation buffs to ghouls QOL would be ideal. A very annoying issue i have found is the min distance of a leap being 5 meters ,ive found that there are moments where my power doesnt grapple because im too close to a loop which makes any play instantly not doable. I suggest making this min distance 4 meters instead of 5. Another issue i am having is the aim assist from the lock on. the aim assist in making me latch on survivors when im trying to instead leap to something in front of them. Any feedback from players would nice (real feedback please)
Comments
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The minimum required distance should definitely get lowered. It would allow to do so many cool things. They can nerf the vault for me it is useless either way. It rarely ever gives me a hit.
The lock on auto aim could be little smaller agree.
Another thing I find frustrating is the cooldown while using his power when you miss attaching on something, after which his crosshair disappears for a short time. I wished that got removed.
And I want this skin:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/443557/new-skin-for-kaneki-please
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Nerfing vault speed is completely unnecessary in my opinion. First of all, there is counterplay, contrary to what many are saying, I've dealt with this vault several times as well as I've seen many survivors deal with this without any problems too. If they nerf this, they will end the only possibility he has of catching a survivor in a loop, since his power is very difficult to use in loops.
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My issue is how easy it is for him to get next to survivor.
Just use it on something behind a survivor:- if survivor run → slide
- if survivor double back → cancel
Just make him always slide, especially because it's really funny to see him slide past you. Then he suddenly has valid counterplay in chase.
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Making him always slide would hinder his anti loop skill expression i dont think thats a good idea, the counterplay is making ghoul break the pallet which will be a lot more consistent when they nerf his enrage vault
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That's the biggest problem in his hit, my guy. His vaults and kidnap techs are very problematic
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I agree with the kidnap thing, but his vault generally isn‘t that useful. It‘s very much overestimated.
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It can be paired up with End Fury. This could make Kaneki unbearable, as the number of pallets in the maps has been reduced significantly
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You can play end fury on any killer. What‘s the problem and what does it have to do with the vault?
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In some cases you should pre-drop pallets, but Kaneki's almost non-existent cooldowns hinder counter-play for survivors too much
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No, it's not. The counterplay to his vault is exactly the same as playing against a Huntress/Houndmaster etc... If you read it correctly and see that he's going to raise his tentacles, you just keep running and he'll have to cancel the power and get a slowdown. I've done this several times and it's been done to me as well.
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Making him always slide would hinder his anti loop skill expression i dont think thats a good idea
Quite the opposite, there is little to no skill expression now.
Ghoul is something considered to be fine with free hit, because he is supposed to be difficult to down survivor, which now is simply not true.If he would alway slide, ghoul would have to know where to leap so he is going to slide next to survivor, instead of just pressing button right next to them.
Then it would be something impressive if he managed to slide in front of you and block a pallet, right now it's just too easy.
Also he never slides on his last leap, so you can use that if you want to simply get behind survivor anyway in exactly same way if you would cancel now. You just can't use it on first leap…
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Yeah no. His skill ceilling comes from body blocking with your power mid loop which is already very hard to do, your change would make this almost impossible to do/ make his power useless in a lot of loops that are now blockable.
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Yeah no. His skill ceilling comes from body blocking with your power mid loop which is already very hard to do, your change would make this almost impossible to do/ make his power useless in a lot of loops that are now blockable.
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From what I know body blocking with his power can be done mostly with sliding in front of survivor, which would still be possible.
Only thing you would not be able to do is use an easy way and just cancel next to a survivor.
If you want him to have easy time with downing survivors using his power, then you would also need to nerf his first hit instead.1 -
EDIT: To be fair I feel.like Kidnap Tech needs to be fixed, then see where hes at...
If further nerfs are required I feel like either his cancel needs to slide or his enraged vault needs to be set the same as his regular vault. There are so many tiles that are normally really good, that do nothing vs. Kaneki, and this killer already punishes you for leaving tiles. He has plenty of perks he can take to help him deal with really strong tiles if he wishes and still get to play around his stromg cut off. Just from a design point of view. If he can force me to stay at tiles so I can't chain, he should have to play the tile himself.
As it stands, I've been hit by his enraged vault and not even made it round small tiles to even attempt to vault at times... and annoyingly I knew he was gonna do it and I still went down anyway. The only times I've been able to reasonably consistently beat his vault is if I'm running MFT on a decent map, and I shouldn't need to run a killers exact counter to stand a reasonable chance against them.
Even outside of Kidnap Tech, the combination of being able to render any decent length tile completely unloopable via his OG Chucky scamper level vault, and any ability to chain to tiles is completely counterable by sliding or cancelling makes the killers "skill expression" not all that skillful. He shouldn't have both.
I've been playing him without cancelling, and he's got good control even without the cancel, if you always slide it's actually more fun IMO to use him, cause you have to let go early, and now we have a mind game... does the survivor double back or go forward? Do I have to let go early? Or do I full send it?
As such personally I'm with @PetTheDoggo, make him always slide, remove the Kidnap tech and you've got a killer that has some good options but actually has to have skill and good understanding of when to use his power and when not to to effectively cut off survivors.
It woudk also work to alternatively take his enraged vault off him and let him slide and cancel as he sees fit. The fact he can do both right now is plain silly. Currently he's basically a 4.6m/s version of original Chucky with scamper, with a free injury, better map traversal and a MUCH shorter cooldown.
Post edited by UndeddJester on-2 -
(I will be using pictures to help make my comment more readable)
The enraged vault doesn't need a nerf. The killer is pretty balanced overall after the latest nerfs (I still wish they didn't reduce his dash range by 2m and instead just reduced the range in which he can grab onto survivors by that amount, but oh well)
Any reduction to the vault speed would be detrimental to the character. He needs to vault fast because his power is nonlethal. If you make him slower he's just a Legion that injures far more slowly and moves around the map more quickly.
Let's take Wesker for example.
Wesker can down you with M2, Kaneki cannot. So the compensation Kaneki has is a faster vault in order to M1 you since he can't M2 you at loops. It just takes time to adapt and learn which loops he can catch you at by doing this and which he cannot. It's actually quite binary unless he's Hasted or you're Hindered. It takes time to map it out.
It just takes time to learn where to kite him towards. If the enraged vault means he can catch you with the M1, that just means you can't run that loop while he's enraged and while he can see you to vault at you. And as @Daniel_Silva04 said, you have the option of greeding the pallet to take advantage of the slowdown while his power is out. It's a mindgame. Will he wait for you to drop the pallet and try to vault into you? Or will he ignore the pallet and try to hit you? This is what makes DBD interesting even after all these years for many people.
There ARE loops wide enough where his enraged vault does not lead into an eventual M1. My point is just that it takes time to figure out which loops you should or should not run while he is enraged. The vault speed is the way it is because he needs to M1 you. Wesker's vault is slower because he can M2 you, so they slow down his vault to prevent him from just abusing it to catch you with an M1 if you're outmaneuvering his power around a pallet.
It wouldn't make any sense balance-wise if Kaneki's enraged vault was too slow because you'd just play Wesker instead. There are fundamental reasons why Wesker's vault takes longer and Kaneki's is shorter.
If Kaneki's enraged vault was any slower there'd be no reason to use it most of the time. Just play Wesker instead. They don't want to make another Legion where the power is 99% useless in the loop itself. They don't want to make another C or B tier killer.
Also keep in mind that Ghoul is a chase killer. They're not a stealth killer or a pressure killer. The ONLY thing Ghoul can do is chase. So if you nerf their ability to chase, you're ruining the character holistically. The enraged vault would be OP on Ghostface because he can also sneak and oneshot you. Ghoul MUST chase you and MUST M1 you.
Comparing the enraged vault to Scamper is also disingenuous because chucky could crawl under pallets whenever he wanted to. Kaneki needs to be enraged, have line of sight of you, and needs to be direct opposite of a window or pallet to you, and it needs to be his first dash because the second/third will damage you instead of vaulting (unless the target is marked.)
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His entire skill ceiling is in using the power intelligently to bodyblock survivors and cut them off during/between loops. Your suggestion would ruin what makes the killer.
The community just has a lot of growing pains with adapting to a killer that brings a totally new spin on the concept of anti-loop. Just give it time. The killer's fine after their latest changes, he doesn't need any more nerfs.
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While there is a lot there, and there is some stuff I see the merit of, some I do not, one point leaves me in real bind...
Can you explain to me how Ghost Face is busted with a Ghoul vault on an exposed target vs. Ghoul with his vault after a hitscan ranged injury with a very forgiving auto aim? You are in effect exposed vs. Ghoul for all intents and purposes, and this is what makes the Wesker argument less viable. While Weskers power is stronger for downing survivors, Wesker has to outplay his opponent twice, while Ghoul does not.
Ghoul can prevent hold W from pallet to window to pallet. A skilled Ghoul can literally get a basically guaranteed hit around the back of shack by leaping around it and landing next to the survivor. Ghost Face does not have the ability to handle these things, and also loses significant time to numerous survivor perks like Lithe, Sprint Burst, Dead Hard, Off the Record, Decisive Strike, whereas Ghoul is barely hindered at all by any of these things.
A killer like Ghoul with the ability to injure so quickly would normally be countered by not healing, except because he has this strong vault AND the ability to drop right next to you if you're even a little far from safety, you have to heal against him... assuming you even can if he decides to run back to hook and tunnel.
As I've stated before, Ghoul has exceptionally good synergy with perks. Arguably the best Bamboozle user, excellent with Dissolution or Spirit Fury, is probably the best user of Friends Til the End, and the stealth argument is moot when there are perks like Unforseen, Trail of Torment and Hex:Plaything that he can make very solid use of.
As I said, maybe he doesn't need more removing that Kidnap Tech, but this narrative that teh Ghoul is a weak m1 killer after his initial injury is to be frank... laughable.
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How exactly would my change ruin it?
He would still be able to bodyblock by sliding in front of survivor to block pallet / window. That would be possible.
Only thing different would be, you can't simply cancel your power if survivor tries to double back.-4 -
Being able to cancel your power is the whole point. It's why the character's skill cap is so high and it's what gives him the ability to dynamically adjust his positioning. Your suggestion is equivalent to forcing Blight to sprint at the maximum possible range every time before he's allowed to bounce.
It is actually,
genuinely,
not even kidding,
the worst suggestion I have ever heard anyone make for this killer so far. The survivor already makes distance if they double back, the cancel is just there for precision. You can't completely stop mid air so doubling back is valid counterplay, plus you are slowed while recovering.
Post edited by Leon_Loves_Cheryl on4 -
I already made it clear. Not sure how else I can word it for you. Ghoul is a chase killer, so he has a strong chase power. Ghostface is a stealth killer that can come out of somewhere unexpected and oneshot you, so he would be overpowered if he had Ghoul's vault. You have to understand that what makes a killer good is what they're supposed to have. You wouldn't take away Trapper's traps, you wouldn't take away Artist's crows, so you can't take away Ghoul's vault. It has to be fast enough to be worth using so he's not just Legion in chase. We already have Legion. BHVR doesn't want to make another weak chase killer.
In other words, every killer has their own niche. Legion can injure everybody very efficiently, which is why he isn't good at actually getting people down. Kaneki is similar because, while he is a pure M1 killer, he can use his power in interesting ways to outmaneuver and block survivors in order to earn his downs. If you nerf his mobility (and the enraged vault does count as mobility) then he'll become very weak, because he can't injure as efficiently as Legion can and his power can't down whereas Wesker's can.
I must reiterate that Ghoul will become just a glorified Legion if you nerf his enraged vault. Again, his vault is faster than Wesker's because Wesker's power can down you. Kaneki can vault fast but the tradeoff is that his power cannot down you and he gives you time to head to another tile. If he enrage vaults on you and you don't have time to reach another tile/window/pallet, you should get downed. I feel like some people are arguing this topic in bad faith - the survivor should go down without a solid setup. The killer should be strong overall.
Post edited by Leon_Loves_Cheryl on4 -
I don't think anyone is being disingenuous, and I have said repeatedly that the correct thing to do is remove his Kidnap Tech and reassess. I think everyone is being quite reasonable in this discussion.
However to address the Legion comparison, the major difference between Kaneki and Legion is Legion's mobility doesn't allow him to drop back to downing people with m1s whilst still moving at high speed.
Legion only moves in Feral Frenzy between 5.2m/s and 5.92m/s (if you're on your fourth hit you obviously don't try to cut off, you just down). In order to hit survivors moving around tiles, they can cut off and block windows, but it is rare they can make it to the window or pallet first. They move at 2.3m/s in fatigue for 2.5s (which was only recently buffed mind you), and it allows them to close distance, bit to actually get ahead is usually not possible.
Kaneki on the other hand can move at 14m/s with a leap, can land right next to or just ahead of a survivor with a 2s recovery at 1.6m/s. The difference is obviously that Kaneki's ability to land where he needs to be to ensures the Survivor has the maximum time to make safety possible is vastly superior to Legion's power at most tiles. Legion is forced to keep walking after the Survivor until the Survivor is in a position where they can't reach safety to drop his power, Kaneki can be much more active with this, as the OP cites in their usage of the killer.
Both killers can vault, Legion take 0.9s to do so, but Legion has this 2.5s recovery at 2.3m/s. Kaneki meanwhile with Enraged vaults at 1.0s with a 1.25s recovery at 2m/s, and also applies a 50% hinder on the survivor for 1.0s.
Would you therefore say that Legion should have their recovery after a vault dropped to 1s to compensate? This is the exciting and "skillful" gameplay we're talking about for Kaneki? Cause to me, this looks quite blatantly like a no skill free down at vast majority of tiles.
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Right, but Kaneki would also be really weak if his cancel recovery was longer. He would also feel very slow and clunky because he is foundationally not designed to just stare at you for several seconds while cancelling power. The cancel fatigue is balanced around whether or not he was able to outmaneuver you. 9 times out of 10, if he failed to outmaneuver you, you will still reach the pallet. That's the point of the fatigue and it correctly does its job. It doesn't need to be raised higher. The concession they made to deal with the "break pallet then jump and instadown" problem (which absolutely was a problem) was by adding an artificial cooldown to his power when he breaks pallets. It was a genius way to balance the killer without touching the fatigue.
Both killers can vault, Legion take 0.9s to do so, but Legion has this 2.5s recovery at 2.3m/s. Kaneki meanwhile with Enraged vaults at 1.0s with a 1.25s recovery at 2m/s, and also applies a 50% hinder on the survivor for 1.0s.
I fail to see your point. Legion gives you more distance because he can injure you and your entire team in 5 seconds. In the same amount of time, Kaneki just finished injuring one person and being stuck enraging afterward. Thus you cannot nerf Kaneki's vault without making him weaker than both Legion and Wesker. Kaneki already has a built-in Legion stun when he gets the injure. You are asking to ruin the killer. The whole design is to dash, outmaneuver, and if successful, cancel and down someone. That's the whole killer.
What's the point of making his vault as niche as Wesker's if it can't down you? Wesker's dash is slower because they don't want him to brainlessly fallback on M1'ing you if you're outplaying his power at a pallet. Kaneki can ONLY M1 you. Nerfing the vault would destroy the killer.
What's the point of making his cancel fatigue longer? So you can get outplayed and just shrug your shoulders and turn around and run to a different pallet/window? It's balanced this way so he can be rewarded for catching you/blocking you from a resource. If you nerf the cancel fatigue then he's just "catch up simulator" because there'd be no reason to try to use his power during loops like Shack for example because even if you outmaneuver the survivor, they would have enough time to just laugh and walk away. The cancel fatigue is fine exactly as it is.
The killer is SUPPOSED to be rewarded for outmaneuvering you, this is how he is designed. The artificial cooldown already exists so that he doesn't get skill-free downs on you between loops if he breaks a pallet.
I'm frustrated with people wanting to make Wesker hilariously outshine this killer. Ghoul and Wesker should BOTH be allowed to be good in their respective niches. As I've said before, if Ghoul's vault is slow, you might as well play Wesker so you can have a slow vault but at least have a power that also downs people. You're trying to take away the niche that Ghoul is meant to fulfill without understanding it.
The balance is ideal as it is. Wesker has less map mobility but a lethal power. Legion has almost no map mobility but injures everyone easily and efficiently. Ghoul has easy injures (but not efficient injures) and a ton of mobility but a non-lethal power. It's fine as it is.
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I think fundamentally I don't see your argument that Kaneki without enraged vault suddenly becomes a D tier killer.
You're not necessarily wrong in how you describe Kaneki's power working, but you tend to argue in absolutes, and massively overplay the strength of Legion and Ghost Face and end up insinuating they are on par to Kaneki, and essentially act like Kaneki's cut off power is completely toothless. It simply is not, and trying to claim as such puts a major question mark in how biased your argument is. The fundamental fact is Kaneki is not particularly hard to play, and has strength that is comparable to top tier killers like Blight and Wesker, and that is an opinion shared by many players both on killer and survivor side. Low skill floor, high skill ceiling.
I am not saying Kaneki needs to be gutted, I've stated mutliple times he needs his kidnap tech removed, and he needs to then be reviewed in strength. The killer hasn't even been out a month so I don't know for sure how strong he is, but what I do know is this killer is proving harder to adapt to for me than any other killer I've faced to date, and I'm exploring the ideas around why he feels so much more oppressive to play against than any other m1 killer.
For example, Wraith can do the same body blocking strategies as Kaneki and has similar (though weaker) levels of map traversal. Wraith is much easier to handle at loops via greeding pallets given that his uncloak is highly telegraphed and predictable. Kaneki's vault is also highly telegraphed and predictable, and yet I get hit by Kaneki's vault much more often than I get hit by Wraith's uncloak, and often at tiles that are supposed to heavily favour the survivor.
I've played Kaneki myself and even when I'm fumbling my controls and botching my inputs, I still don't feel like I'm weak. I've deliberately played him without exploiting his nastier abilities or builds, and even when I've gotten a 1k, I can feel how much of the killers potential I'm not using. On several occasions I scored hots where I was genuinely sat thinking "yep... that guy had literally nowhere to go". I'm still new to him, and I'm reserving judgement, but as a regular Trapper, Pig, Myer player, this "he becomes D tier" argument is plain bogus.
The fundamental fact of DBD is killer strength is typically tempered by how easy they are to play. Across the whole roster the ease of landing hits tends to correlate to the max potential of the killer. Legion, Wraith and Ghost Face are quite easy to play, so have a pretty firm upper bound on their skill cap. Blight and Billy are quite hard to play, and take time to learn, so have a huge maximum potential but are also rather inaccessible to new players.
The argument I am stressing is this enraged vault is not at all hard to do. It doesn't take much skill or preparation to use it, and it is highly rewarding on a killer that does also have a lot of additional strengths to accompany it, and beyond learning to cancel his swing at the right time doesn't have that much difficulty to him.... just his mobility alone eliminates pretty all macro skills required, because he can easily get back to gens, hooks and slugs without any time concerns, something that all other examples you've provided cannot.
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<mispost, please remove>
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I did not at all "insinuate" that Legion and Ghostface are on Ghoul's level of power lmao. That has absolutely nothing to do with any of the points that I made. I'm not going to engage with the rest of this comment.
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I mean... fair enough?
To defend my argument, you literally stated that Legion injures faster than Kaneki with his power and Ghost face pops out of nowhere to instant down as a defence for why Kaneki needs his enraged vault and those killers do not...
The natural logical implication of that pov is that these aspects of those killers are at the very least comparable in value to Kaneki's mobility, cut off and near guaranteed injuries, if not stronger, and thus he needs to have his vault, whereas neither of these killers should have the same.
Now I don't think you think that, but if you're holding the stance that Kaneki needs this vault and becomes non-functional without it, you're basically saying the other aspects of his kit are so weak, that the Killer who is universally agreed to be stronger than Legion and Ghost Face suddenly becomes weaker than them without this vault... and I don't think it's unreasonable of me to conclude that doesn't make sense.
I'm not trying to insult you my dude, I'm trying to reach a conclusion on this killer. You have an opposing experience and point of view, so I'm probing your argument to ascertain where our disagreements lie and hopefully have you help better inform my own argument and opinion...
However sure, if you wanna move on from the conversation, I guess we can just agree to disagree.
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There are a lot of smaller loops where you body Block with your second leap by canceling before you slide, if you always slide you will go past what youre trying to body Block.
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The survivor already makes distance if they double back
Not really, cancel during dash basically make you ignore whole sliding animation. So you end next to the survivor…
There is simply not much skill involved right now, because it is easy.Yay, you pressed button so you can stop, where you wanted to be. So much skill there…
If you would managed to get where you want at end of this slide and bodyblock, then that takes some skill.
Right now I would actually say Kaneki is similar to Blight, but hugtech version tho. No need to have good bump logic, just look down and you get a hit.Yeah, that's kinda the point…
Sorry, but his power is all about having free first hit and you also want it to be antiloop which can be used even on short loops? While he also counter hold W and has one of best mobility…
With his vault, mobility and short fatigue he would work even without ability to injure survivors with his power.
Either his first hit needs to be more difficult, or his downing needs to be more difficult. Right now I would say both is easy...-2 -
The body blocking mid loop is the one thing that gives this killer a high skill ceilling, you want to remove skill expression from a already easy to pick up and play killer?
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He would still be able to do it even if he always slide. You just wouldn't simply turn around, leap directly in front of survivor and press button to cancel it. That's really not difficult, any PC player can flick their camera and press a button.
If he always slided, then he would still be able to get same result on many loops, you would simply need to know where to leap exactly to slide in front of survivor, which is definetly more difficult as it should be.If skill ceilling gets removed just because player can't press a button to get desired result, then it wasn't really that high skill ceilling in first place.
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If you actually tried to play him with bodyblocking in tiles you would know always sliding would be horrible. Also if its "that easy" i wonder why i almost dont see any ghouls try it? Maybe because its actually hard to consistently pull of already.... but try it. Get consistent mid loop blocks and Come back to this post
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