http://dbd.game/killswitch
Anyone else think there was a better way to nerf ghoul than his current nerf?
Nerfing him is fine, but this isn't, I definitely know there's q better way to nerf him than putting his powers & tokens on a full CD reset ever pallet break, before, it was a step in the right direction, they just had to killswitch him to fix the "through wall grab attack" bug that should have been fixed already (not surprised that it didn't tho, it wasn't widely discussed much), and maybe make more adjustments to his power stats but reseting the cooldown on every pallet break to 0 tokens for a full reset? That's excessive even for the ghoul
There's definitely a better way to nerf him than what he currently got and that's a fact, bc losing your power regardless if you use or not just to break a pallet, is the WORST thing I've ever seen for any killer unless it actually makes since, like Billy or Bubba, they lose their power when destroying a pallet with their power, that makes sense but this? Why should this be a think if they power is even in use? This is why I say there's definitely a better way tk nerf ghoul WITHOUT making him unbearable to play as, like how he is rn with his current nerf that was just applied
Answers
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Remove his ability to target survivors on first leap and makes his leap over pallets to take little bit longer and some other minor tweaks.
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I'm actually 99% happy with how BHVR have been dealing with Kaneki as a Ghoul main. Giving his power a cooldown on breaking pallets is absolutely the most fair way to nerf him for both sides, compared to messing with his cooldown fatigue (which would ruin his potential for skillful plays) or messing with his enraged vault (which would make him a weaker version of Wesker.)
The one and only thing that I dislike about BHVR's changes to Ghoul is the two meter range nerf. I don't believe his mobility needed a nerf holistically, I think it would've been just fine to nerf the survivor grab range by those two meters instead and leave the dash range alone. But aside from that, the character is seriously well-balanced in my opinion.
I'm actually proud of BHVR for their…well, behavior in adjusting Ghoul. They've been infamous for "gutting" characters and have taken a lot of flak for it historically, and their treatment of Ghoul shows that they are not only willing, but trying to change for the better. Again, I just wish the two meter range nerf didn't happen but the character is still a total blast to play and it doesn't feel like I'm handicapping myself by picking him.
The only alternatives to giving his power an artificial cooldown on pallet break, would absolutely ruin the character. Nerfing the enraged vault should not happen because Wesker would be better in every way. (The reason why Wesker has a slower vault is because he can M2 you. Kaneki cannot.) Nerfing the power cancel fatigue would also ruin the character because he would be heavily disincentivized to ever use the power during a loop which is the fun part of playing Killer. They don't want his power to just be "I move around the map lol." Swinging around obstacles with the power and cancelling it at JUST the right time is what makes the killer who he is. You CANNOT nerf these aspects of him without ruining him.
So their solution (and it IS a great solution) is to give a forced cooldown when you break a pallet, which makes 100% perfect sense and is fair for both sides without ruining the killer.
Honestly I would like to see the forced cooldown thing on more killers and compensate them with buffs. Take one token away from Wesker when he breaks a pallet but give him more range on both dashes. Take both tokens away from Nurse. Take 2 tokens from Blight and let him dash faster. Give Kaneki his two meters back. It's a REALLY good way to nerf a killer while keeping what makes them strong, strong.
Post edited by Leon_Loves_Cheryl on1 -
(I will be using pictures to help make my comment more readable)
The enraged vault doesn't need a nerf. The killer is pretty balanced overall after the latest nerfs (I still wish they didn't reduce his dash range by 2m and instead just reduced the range in which he can grab onto survivors by that amount, but oh well)
Any reduction to the vault speed would be detrimental to the character. He needs to vault fast because his power is nonlethal. If you make him slower he's just a Legion that injures far more slowly and moves around the map more quickly.
Let's take Wesker for example.
Wesker can down you with M2, Kaneki cannot. So the compensation Kaneki has is a faster vault in order to M1 you since he can't M2 you at loops. It just takes time to adapt and learn which loops he can catch you at by doing this and which he cannot. It's actually quite binary unless he's Hasted or you're Hindered. It takes time to map it out.
It just takes time to learn where to kite him towards. If the enraged vault means he can catch you with the M1, that just means you can't run that loop while he's enraged and while he can see you to vault at you. And as @Daniel_Silva04 said, you have the option of greeding the pallet to take advantage of the slowdown while his power is out. It's a mindgame. Will he wait for you to drop the pallet and try to vault into you? Or will he ignore the pallet and try to hit you? This is what makes DBD interesting even after all these years for many people.
There ARE loops wide enough where his enraged vault does not lead into an eventual M1. My point is just that it takes time to figure out which loops you should or should not run while he is enraged. The vault speed is the way it is because he needs to M1 you. Wesker's vault is slower because he can M2 you, so they slow down his vault to prevent him from just abusing it to catch you with an M1 if you're outmaneuvering his power around a pallet.
It wouldn't make any sense balance-wise if Kaneki's enraged vault was too slow because you'd just play Wesker instead. There are fundamental reasons why Wesker's vault takes longer and Kaneki's is shorter.
If Kaneki's enraged vault was any slower there'd be no reason to use it most of the time. Just play Wesker instead. They don't want to make another Legion where the power is 99% useless in the loop itself. They don't want to make another C or B tier killer.
Also keep in mind that Ghoul is a chase killer. They're not a stealth killer or a pressure killer. The ONLY thing Ghoul can do is chase. So if you nerf their ability to chase, you're ruining the character holistically. The enraged vault would be OP on Ghostface because he can also sneak and oneshot you. Ghoul MUST chase you and MUST M1 you.
Comparing the enraged vault to Scamper is also disingenuous because chucky could crawl under pallets whenever he wanted to. Kaneki needs to be enraged, have line of sight of you, and needs to be direct opposite of a window or pallet to you, and it needs to be his first dash because the second/third will damage you instead of vaulting (unless the target is marked.)
The Enraged Vault is perfectly fine. Weakening it would give you no meaningful reason to play Ghoul over Wesker.
As a Kaneki main, the latest nerf has already put the character in a perfectly balanced spot. I like that they are focusing on giving his power an artificial cooldown on breaking pallets, rewarding survivors for outmaneuvering Kaneki around a loop. This is ONE MILLION TIMES BETTER than screwing with his vault (which severely weakens his chase threat) and ruining his fatigue (which would heavily disincentivize using his power at all outside of map mobility)
Again, as I said earlier, the ONE THING that kinda sucks is the overall range nerf on the power instead of just nerfing the range in which he could grab survivors. His mobility didn't need to be reduced overall, just the range in which he could grab survivors needed that two meter nerf. Otherwise, the character is 100% perfectly fine right now. His strongest aspects (the enraged vault and his cancel fatigue) are what make him who he is. You wouldn't take away Billy's dash, you wouldn't take away Ghostface's oneshot, so you shouldn't take away Ghoul's enraged vault. It's the only thing that makes his power usable in a chase around a pallet or window. The only thing. He used to have hugtechs in the PTB but they were removed to make his power less usable in chase.
He's 100% fine rn.
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A good nerf for him would have been shorting the time you have between leaping onto something and reducing the hitscan hitbox, which is still too big. Both of these changes would make a little more difficult to play and reward playing good with him rather than playing bad.
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I wouldn't be against shortening the time he has to choose where to go - not that I feel like any more nerfs are at all necessary at this point.
The survivor clickbox and linger duration are both fine now in my opinion. I now very rarely encounter moments where I accidentally pounce on them when I wanted to latch onto geometry.
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Personally, no nerf will be enough as long as he has a hitscan ability that takes a health state. It's unhealthy for the game on the most basic, conceptual level. The comparisons to Legion or Nurse are frankly not even close to how he functions when he can get the hit on you if he can see even a pixel of your hitbox in the split second it takes for him to click on it. If it needs to be hitscan it shouldn't take a health state, or have a lot of restrictions on when it can do that in the same way Nemmy's whip needs to infect targets before it can take a health state. The enraged vault speed modifier should also be entirely removed, and it shouldn't trigger Bamboozle (a lesson I thought we learned with Wesker but I guess not).
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The price he has to pay for having an easy injure is that he can't down you with it. Your entire argument is based on your feeling that you want to have two health states against every killer. It's good game design that some killers shake this paradigm up. Your rhetoric is flawed because it's purely based on the fact that you "fundamentally" feel like having two health states should always be the "default".
The funny thing is, it's not even like Kaneki can ignore a full health state. You ARE safer. He has to pounce on you and chomp you, yes it is easy but you get a speed boost to go somewhere else while he's crashing out. So yes, there are in fact benefits to being full HP against Kaneki if you're working on a generator in a risky area, for example (few pallets/windows, short loops, etc.)
If it needs to be hitscan it shouldn't take a health state
Then what's the point? I swear, some suggestions I read on here are ridiculous. Yeah just make Demogorgon's pounce not damage you. Yeah let's just suggest things that completely ruin the game. He can't DOWN you with the power, why do you want to be invulnerable? As I said earlier, it's good game design to make killers that spice up the two health states mechanic. You're basing your argument purely off of your feeling that you should always have two health states and that's not the case because the game is not that boring. Imagine if Exposed didn't exist. Mechanics (and killers) like this exist to spice up the flow. DBD is successful because it isn't always predictable.
The enraged vault speed modifier should also be entirely removed
I went on about this already up above so I'm not going to engage with this part of your comment. TL:DR nerfing the enraged vault would give people no reason to use Ghoul over Wesker. Read above for the explanation.
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These are some pretty bad faith arguments. Not being able to down with it isn't a price, and really isn't pertinent to the point I was making. A hit scan that takes a health state just isn't healthy for the game, whether or not it downs. Your next point also doesn't make a lot of sense because regardless of how free the hit from Ghoul's power is, he still DOES take two hits to down. It seems like you're trying to draw a comparison here that doesn't fit. You even acknowledge that in the next sentence so not sure why you didn't just edit that tangent out.
The next one you make is especially egregious. Demogorgon's Shred isn't a hitscan. The power not being able to down is, again, beside the point - but also doesn't really have anything to do with "invulnerability". You then repeat that one hit downs are good game design despite neither Demo nor Ghoul falling into that category. You're using a lot of formatting to insist that I'm being emotional about this, unclear where you're drawing this conclusion from.
Your above explanation on the enraged vault is just that you feel it's fine, which really isn't conclusive or convincing evidence. We have previous killers who have had similar functions on their powers that have had to have them toned back. Ghoul's enraged vault is stronger than any set precedent, all of which had to be nerfed.
So, sorry you want to get emotional about it and project that on me because it's a killer you enjoy playing. I am just looking at how other killers function and the balance changes that have needed to be made on them over time and noting that Ghoul has the same issues, only exacerbated because the hitscan power has even less room for counterplay and interaction. That's just facts.
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While I do see your point, and I do agree now that I see it from both sides, wesker with this kind of treatment would actually gut him bc his dash is already so easily canceled entirely due to the big hit box it has and that it just stops him dead in his tracks to this slightest touch of an obstacle regardless if it makes sense or not (what I mean by this Is the slight hits from dash collisions from invisible walls or a wall that barely touches him) but characters like blight should Definitely have this like ghoul, wesker is the only exception due to how he stops immediately to the slightest collision when dashing no matter how small
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I heavily disagree. I have been playing a lot of Kaneki the last few days and he is still incredibly fun in my opinion, but now much fairer. Him losing two tokens after breaking a pallet is a fantastic nerf if you ask me, because it gives survivors exactly what they needed: more time to reach some kind of resource so they have more counterplay against Kaneki. Having him break the pallet and then immediately catch up to you is not very fun for survivor.
And the hindered nerf was also important, now survivors can actually get around the loop after he vaults the pallet in enraged mode and participate in a mindgame instead of just going down.
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The problem with further reducing the hitscan hitbox is that it would very likely hurt controller players too much. It would be nice if the hits through walls weren't possible anymore though.
In general I think he is in a good spot now balance wise.
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Messing with the hit scan size would likely make the killer unplayable with a controller, which is prolly why it's the size it currently is.
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Yeah I agree.
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I didn't say you were being emotional. You misinterpreted and, ironically, became emotional as a result. What a disingenuous comment all around. I just said that the way you feel about the game's fundamental mechanics aren't ideal to balance around because you want every killer to respect two health states. Legion doesn't respect having two health states and he's still one of the weakest killers in the entire game. My point is made.
Not being able to down with it isn't a price
Oh yeah? So Dracula, Demo, Nemesis, et al. just get to down you with their power for free. By your logic Ghoul would be even stronger because you're under the false impression that there's no power budget in an ability that can down a survivor. If not being able to down with the power isn't a tradeoff, then just make all powers down since that's your balance philosophy. Enjoy Legion getting 4k's in 30 seconds.
Too bad for you that you cannot be invulnerable against a power that doesn't down you. Ridiculous. As a reminder to anyone lurking:
Inane logic. What an asinine argument.
Ghoul also doesn't have "the same issues". I'm assuming you're alluding to Chucky's Scamper, which is a disingenuous comparison. Ghoul can't fastvault whenever he wants.
I won't respond to you again. I'm not your mirror, don't project on me. I didn't personally attack you or claim you were arguing emotionally. That's your interpretation which you then projected onto me. Go self-reflect. I deserve better.
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Yes, his initial pallet break nerf was balanced, and now you lose your power for almost the full cooldown, just for breaking a pallet.
His attack range is what needed a nerf, especially when the killer has bad ping, you get hit through walls. His vault speed for the most part got nerfed in this second nerf, which im ok with. His minamum leap distance needs to be considerably reduced and his crosshair linger should be removed entirely, factoring in his base range nerf last time
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Ye i hate that, since the crosshair lingers on grabable objects and survivors, you get forced jnto doing something you didn't want to do
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