http://dbd.game/killswitch
Changes I Would Like To See on Wesker
Introduction
This is a bit of a continuation of my opinion on Wesker from a discussion post titled "State of Wesker" but here are some things I would like to see.
Currently, I feel like Wesker has fallen behind compared to more recent releases, especially The Ghoul who has almost double the recharge rate of his tokens while enraged and faster token recharge and consumption in general compared to Wesker. Yes, his power recovers faster based on the amount of people infected, but it is way to hard to keep consistent infection on most survivors before they cleanse with 1 of 12 sprays. So lets start with some numbers…
The Bound:
- Decrease base token recharge time from 5.5 seconds per charge to a varying depending on how many dashes have been used.
- First Dash: +4.5 seconds (4.0 > 3.5 > 3.0 > 2.5)
- Second Dash: +5 seconds (4.5 > 4.0 > 3.5 > 3.0)
- Using both dashes would thus decrease the time from 11 seconds down to 9.5 seconds.
- (8.5 > 7.5 > 6.5 > 5.5)
- Added ability to cancel second dash during chain bound window
- (EDIT: It takes 0.8 seconds before you can cancel)
Having a varying amount of time on the dashes rewards players that know they cannot land a second dash and don't just dash mindlessly. With the added ability to cancel the second dash early, it makes him feel less clunky.
However, when bringing the -0.5 seconds per infection survivor numbers in comparison, it can seem a bit scary. Either remove this system like the Singularity or rework it to go towards movement speed when recovering.
- Decrease Power Charge Time from 1.5 seconds to 1.3 seconds
- Increase Virulent Bound Speed from 14m/s to 15m/s
- Increase walking in Chain Bound window from 2.76m/s to 3m/s
- Increase Charging Bound speed from 3.68m/s to 3.8m/s
The decrease to the charge will make him feel just a little better while the increase speed will actually allow him to make quicker distance to far away survivors.
- Increase the time of the hitbox when vaulting with a window / pallet
Too many times have I vaulted a pallet / window and have the survivor just vault through me and go unpunished, if anything rewarded. I know this system is a problem on The Ghoul but that is for a different reason ("Kidnap tech")
- Decrease cool down from completion with / without hitting a Survivor from 3 seconds to 2.6 seconds
Bring the timing closer to a basic attack cooldown.
- Increase camera turn rate from (Yaw) from 1x to 1.3x
Minor, but would make Rebound easier (throwing a survivor in a different direction)
Infection
Alright, I have been talking about buffs to the bound long enough. Now, I feel like I should talk about the infection. It's outdated, easy to get rid of, and has received multiple nerfs without any compensation. I propose a rework:
- Infection no longer applies the hindered status affect
- Decrease Max Infection level from 100 charges to 80 charges
- Increase passive infection gain from 0.8 charges per second to 1.0 c/s
- Decrease initial infection level from 20 charges to 10 charges.
- Decrease infection penalty when grabbing an already infected survivor from 20 to 15 charges.
Making the infection more prevalent makes it more of a threat, especially with the fact that it allows for instant downs. With the removal of hinderance, it would justify the increase to max infection.
We could just leave it here and accept the instant grabs being a good benefit, but lets add a little more since this is all hypothetical…
Now, this one might be a bit obvious, and honestly there are two routes you could take this. Either:
- NEW: When at least one survivor gains maximum infection, gain a third dash,
Simple, easy, loved from 2v8. But instead of that, lets maybe try something else…
Instead of the buff above, I propose something wacky
- Appearance changes when at least one survivor is fully infecting, with the Uroboros taking over
- NEW: When a survivor gains max infection, gain killer instinct on them for 3 seconds.
- NEW: When at least one survivor is infected;
- Increase dash movement speed +3m/s
- Increase each bound time by 0.5 seconds
- Decrease successful slam cooldown by 0.3 seconds
- Gain the ability to cancel bound at any time with a 3 second cooldown
- cooldown here refers to having a movement speed decrease as well as not being able to attack
- Increase terror radius from 40m to 45m (or it could decrease to 36 for whatever reason)
These changes allow for additional information for where a survivor has been fully infected as well as notable buffs towards his base power.
EDIT: MAX INFECTION IDEA #3-4
Okay, so the last two ideas have one glaring issue; if a single survivor doesn't care about max infection it hurts the entire team. After a bit I realized that Max Infection should only be hurting the max infected survivor. With this in mind, here are two new ideas:
- NEW: When a survivor with max infection gets grabbed, they will get slammed into the ground resulting in a carry
This would punish both healthy and injured survivors, making max infection a threat specifically towards a single survivor. Though may be a little too powerful in practice, so here is a more realistic idea;
- NEW: Bound Survivor Grab Duration increases from 0.86 seconds to 1 second when hitting a survivor with Max Infection
- NEW: Pick up from slamming a survivor with max infection increased from 3 seconds to 2.4 seconds
- Optional additional idea - NEW: Throwing a survivor with max infections and missing results in 5 seconds of 5% hinderance
These changes would reward standard Wesker gameplay while punishing survivors that do not spray in time. The quicker pick up time is more QoL than anything, but those 0.6 seconds could matter. The hinderance return comes from the idea from Houndmaster where if a survivor stuns Snug they get slowed down. Even though I mention it I honestly do not really want it, but I felt like it was worth mentioning since the changes above were solely about successful grabs.
Note: Bound Survivor Grab Duration refers to the extra time traveled after grabbing a survivor, 1 second being the standard second bound time. This would make grabs more likely and especially helpful on more open maps.
Conclusion
Now I know I got some wacky ideas thrown in here and honestly it definitely seems a bit killer sided, but I just couldn't stop comparing him to other killers, especially Ghoul and Dracula's wolf form. I highly suggest going to wiki.gg and looking at their numbers.
One thing I wanted to mention was making Sliding Wesker an easier thing to accomplish for non-dedicated players. I would like there to be a way to potentially integrate that into his power, either just by doing it outright or giving some kind of condition. But alas I'm a numbers guy…
If you want to judge me or put in some of your suggestions feel free. I know I mainly talked about buffs here so feel free to maybe add some nerfs. Anyway thank you for looking at this bye bye
EDIT: FORGOT TO MENTION
- Please fix the fact that sometimes he just slams his face into a pallet or window when a survivor is on the other side. Increase the hitbox of his power if he is by a window / pallet or something, or add an increased buffer to vault something when within a close distance. This buffer should be like 2 seconds.
EDIT AGAIN:
There are a lot of ways to give some love to Wesker, instead of my suggestion maybe lean more into his speed and focus on mobility. Or lean into his name "The Mastermind" and give him the ability to maybe calculate ways to body block survivors / have more information on them. Idk im just a little guy.
Edit seven billion:
Fix the bug where Wesker can make pallets that stun you if you grab a survivor that drops a pallet and carries them away.
TD:LR: remove hinderance and give him some fresh uroboros
Comments
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I like these changes! I think the ones for his bound, i.e his cool-downs and movement speeds are really good, and even if the numbers themselves are too strong, I think the general direction is good and something that should be implemented.
I agree that the infection should be reworked a bit, the hinder is a but underwhelming for both sides honestly. I would love him to have 3 dashes lol but I don’t think many others would like that unfortunately, and I’d think he’d absolutely need the ability to cancel his power between bounds or have a lower cool down if he were to have 3 bounds.
I like the other changes you suggest with infection. However I’d like to mention that perhaps increasing bound duration (I assume you mean how long each bound lasts for, and therefore how far Wesker moves per dash) could be tricky because it would make it very hard to get his dash distance down with muscle memory since the distance would be changing constantly mid match. At least personally I would find that kind of off putting, but that might just be me. Though to be fair Wesker can already change his dash distance with his addons but those distances will be constant within a game, only changing after a game if you change the addons.But yeah I really like these changes. I hope one day I’ll see them in actual patch notes!
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A bound cancel like Kaneki?
Faster mid bound movement, making Egg even stronger?
Shorter recovery times, less reaction time for his wind up, faster and further bounds?
Vault recovery becomes even faster, while also making the window to vault back through the window even smaller, likely impossible, without getting hit?
Make his techs more universally accessible as well, which make him exceedingly hard to deal with?
The changes to infection and such are interesting, removal of hindered for instead an extra bound is an interesting direction, which has a lot of points of discussion in its own right... but it's pretty hard to factor that in conjunction with also hitting every area of counterplay against his bound Survivors have?
I assume you must have played against triple bound Wesker in 2vs8 at some point? A good Wesker who could tech with triple bound was a monster, hard to juke him twice, let alone juke him 3 times.
There are definitely some interesting and good suggestions here to improve Wesker... but with them all added together? This is a pretty lop sided set of changes my man 😶😶😶
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Yeah honestly after typing this I realized that too, but honestly I feel like thats a problem with many other killers anyway. For instance: Victor pounce add on, Pig ambush charge add on, heck even Hillbilly speed. But that would also get mitigated by the fact you can cancel at ANY time, even during a bound. Which might open up new interesting opportunities, so who knows.
What if instead of just cancelling, one tap made you pause in place to do a second bound? or would that be insane. Do its either third dash or my insane idea.0 -
Yeah, thats why I gave a different idea instead of just "give him a third bound"
For max infection Im not saying this AND that, Im saying this OR that. Though I do understand I mainly did buffs, there are still a lot of things that have not changed such as cooldowns for when he misses or not.
Originally I had an idea that you had to wait 0.8 seconds before canceling during the chain bound window, but that felt a little funky in my head. Might be a good idea though if canceling is too powerful.0 -
Okay so for some reason when I hit quote it just… didnt quote. Refer to my comment above as a reply.
Edit: Also forgot to mention, egg wouldnt be stronger if it got nerfed, as with other add ons. Im assuming adjustments would be made to where some add ons numbers get reduced or reworked entirely. (Though I wish whenever an add on got adjusted they would just rework it anyway because some become incredibly useless, Im looking at YOU Potion of Speed for The Lich.)0 -
They need provide more clear code on him, so any insta hug techs, and everything else people using on him had more clear conditions that both killer and survivors understand.
Especially if we remember tech when he is slide around pallet if catching a timing after dropping.
Like idea that infection doesn’t provide hindered. That makes his main ability small buffs justified
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Honestly I imagine hug techs would still activate the same way they currently do, just with a much bigger window. Most of the time (not all) it is fairly easy to tell if Wesker is going for a hug tech as they need to do a little shimmie (though that may change if the window to do it increases).
Definitely believe infection needs a slight rework, given how hard it is to reach max infection + even get a survivor max infection. I probably overdid it with the buffs but these are just all my ideas poured into one. Even though I mentioned it, I hope they go for a unique mechanic rather than "max infection gives third dash".0 -
Another post about giving balanced killer an absolute massive rework that will mess any current balance state and will result in nerf-buff-nerf-buff. Wesker is already 2nd most played killer and doesn't truly struggle if you are good with him. What's the point of buffing already strong killers? This is not even some reasonable tweak, like shorter cooldown for only one bound used. This is massive rework to whole his kit, who already is a very good killer. Why? There are plenty of killers on the list that must be looked at before Wesker is touched. And if rework like this happens than the base game would also need some tuning. Waste of resources that can be focus around truly needed things.
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I agree, there are many other killers that should be looked at before Wesker. However, there are still pain points within his kit. Especially the fact that vaulting over stuff half the time does nothing to survivors that get in your face, or when he slams his face into a survivor in an animation (vaulting / dropping pallet) and nothing happens. Did I over do it? Maybe, if so I would say pick and choose specifics. For instance, maybe leave the bound numbers alone but keep speed buffs. Change how infection works but leave it at 100 charges, etc.
Does he need it the most? No, but that doesnt mean we shouldnt talk about it. Plus, calling it a waste of resources for a hypothetical idea is a bit harsh considering majority are slight number changes, which also makes me want to say its less of a rework and more of an update as its not adding substantial changes to how he plays (except maybe canceling during chain bound but I can live without that). Edit: Scratch that I said rework infection but still feel like they would call it an update?
Curious on your thoughts on the Pyramid Head base power changes?0 -
On the number changes: Don't really have any thoughts on any particular changes, would have to feel most of it out ingame (although one of the first thoughts about changing the charge time was "how long does his laughing audio cue last anyway? would it still be natural at 1.3 seconds?"). The only thing I'll say is that the variable cooldown thing just seems to add a bit of needless complexity for the sake of complexity. I think having each bound share the same cooldown makes the character more intuitive to play for both newcomers & veterans, and you also don't have to think about how it affects/how you'd change/not change add-ons that alter dash distance.
On the bound cancel: I still don't like it, even with the cooldown/waiting period. I get it, it's really awkward sitting there for ages with egg staring into the survivor's soul as they meander around a bush. But out-positioning him like half the counterplay, right? If you give him the ability to cancel even 1 second sooner, especially with the other proposed buffs, you basically just make deadzones worse for survivor more than anything. Maybe make it an add-on or something so there's some opportunity cost to having it, but even then.
On the vault hitbox time: Sure. Even if they did though I think people would find a way to do it. I had someone avoid the vault chomp and phase into me even on Ghoul once or twice. Honestly a temporary block on the pallet/window (like 0.5-1 second) upon completing the vault animation would probably go a long way to dealing with the issue w/o affecting his overall power level or resulting in cheap hits.
On the camera turn rate: I could live with just the multiplier being adjusted. It's probably the better solution instead of just removing it entirely, if only due to the implication of mouse flicks. I think it is just unbearably slow right now, especially on controller. I'd even take it in add-on form at this rate.
On the infection changes: I don't like any of it.
Well, ok, the infection charges numbers I don't have many thoughts on, for reasons stated previously. It's all a matter of what feels best when actually playing which is hard to gain from looking at stuff on paper. But the third dash on max infection for instance, I hate it. My first train of thought is what happens to that third dash when the fully infected people get rid of their infection? Does it just disappear into the aether? If it does disappear, does it do so after a period of time or instantly (even mid-bound)? But if it doesn't disappear, do you communicate to the survivors that he has a third dash up or no (I would hope it is given the implications)? Is the dash even used up if he doesn't dash more than twice (so he just always has it for the perfect moment)? There's just too many questions that need answers here, and that's with disregarding the balance concerns that 3 dashes bring up, disregarding the fact that having it tied to the infection mechanic might not even feel good on the Wesker player's end, and disregarding the fact that this would change it from a "you are fully infected, this is bad for you" to "you are fully infected, this could be bad for your teammate across the map" ordeal (although to be fair, yes, the cooldown reduction that's in the game already does that to an extent, and I sort of agree with removing it in favor of a lower base cooldown).
The other proposed infection change is pretty much 1 to 1 with regards to how I feel and what questions are brought up with the 3 dash idea, except I also have concerns about messing with the killer's muscle memory/timing in a way that's not really in their control.
Like that's the big thing right. A survivor getting fully infected isn't in the killer's control unless they're hard committing to a chase or if they've somehow managed to get them to burn every spray, so tying such a big, game changing bonus to the mechanic just doesn't make much sense to me. You'd essentially end up in a Plague situation (especially ancient Plague when she didn't start with a corrupt fountain basekit) where you'd rarely actually get to use that fun extra part of your power unless the survivors choose to let it happen or you try so hard to force it to happen that you'd be better off playing normally anyway. It just doesn't sit right with me from a design perspective, and I don't think it'd be as fun to have in practice as you think it would. But I will state that I'm not entirely happy with the hinder either so…I don't know.
And finally, on the face slamming changes: If you could just vault normally without spending a second charge while in the chain bound window like how Ghoul can vault windows normally while actively in power, I'd be happy. Have it cancel the power like a normal bound vault and allow it to be used on pallets (unlike Ghoul). I don't think it'd be all that problematic, it would just be nice for those situations where if you don't spend the 2nd charge to vault, they get a ton of distance because you have to go around or break the pallet, and if you do, they still get a ton of distance because of the full power recovery. Anything to reduce the monotony of holding W.
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You mean the extra 2m range basekit, -0.2m/s movement while holding power, borrowed time from cages and add on pass?
I tried Pyramid Head and the 0.2m/s slower movement isn't truly noticable, extra 2m don't effect most antiloop uses but it's still something going for him in longer ambitious shots, borrowed time from cages will also affect 0.05 % of games as proxacamping PH relocates the cage and if he comes to tunnel someone of the cage the borrowed time will be over. and hook related perks don't work anyway for any side. So base-kit wise I'd say he's slightly nerfed but in a comparasionto last Pig buff, similiar level of update, very tiny to notice but it happened. Add on pass though is insane and I like it. Apart from the iridescent goblet he's add ons are pretty interesting and fun to combine and allow to try some uses in specific builds.
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I get a lot of my suggestions probably sound better on paper than in practice but let me try to give some justification:
The variable cooldown idea came from Artist who kind of works similarly, where the more crows you use the longer the cool down (seconds; 5, 9, 12, 14) but I thought reversing it for Wesker could be interesting. Though I understand part of Wesker's appeal is his simplicity.
Add-ons: Another thing is I did somewhat think about add ons. I imagined those in affect would be adjusted or reworked entirely. I am curious as to what add-ons you imagine would have specific problems? I was thinking about Leather Cloves (reduces power recovery time by 8%) but they would work fine, they would just reduce each token slightly differently (4.5 = 0.36 saved and 5 = 0.4 saved).
I value your other points and understand not letting him cancel his power in that second bound window, note I do imagine he would still have his slow recovery of 3 seconds during it (on top of needing to possibly wait ~1 second) but I do agree it takes away run away time so it might be better off without it.
As for infection; let me elaborate.
The third dash, if ever implemented, would probably work like Ghoul where if you lose your third dash while about to lose it you keep going and complete it. I don't see too many complications with it other than the fact there is less of a warning. But I don't like that idea anyway.
As for my other proposition, I imagined it would work like Hillbilly's Overdrive where it also affects muscle memory but greatly benefits. With max infection more frequent (70 seconds when a survivor is left alone) I thought it might be a more unique way of giving him something extra. But I understand it is a lot of numbers for a moment that may never even happen. I mainly just want something other than hinderance.
Honestly, I would be happy if they removed hinderance and gave him the infection charge buffs as compensation, leaving insta-down as the main reward for a fully infected survivor.
Face slamming is the #1 thing I would like fixed or changed on him to be honest, I feel like that is my biggest pain point with him. I do wonder what increasing the activation box when specifically hitting a window would do but I'm scared that would cause issues (especially with how thin some walls are)
Thoughts on making hug-tech more accessible on him?1 -
why is copy and pasting stuff on this forums such a formatting pain these days ahhhhh
Variable cooldown: I think Artist's variable cooldown for using X amount of birds isn't really felt much at all because you either have crows or you don't. There's no halfway point where you can have 1-2 crows and you're able to use them, whereas with Wesker there is (not to mention that attempting to use your 1 bound while the 2nd is on cooldown completely pauses the 2nd's cooldown and eats it if used). I just think it would mess with the feel of the character without any real reason to do so.
As for the add-ons, I was specifically thinking about Unicorn Medallion & RPD Walkie, where the value of the individual dashes changes, so it'd make sense that a hypothetical variable cooldown would also have to change with those add-ons. It's not that it can't be done, it just goes back to the question of why bother in the first place if it's just going to require a lot more work for little benefit to the character's design or balance?
On bound cancelling: I'm not completely opposed to the idea, but they'd have to add a clearer audio/visual cue to it, similar to Ghoul's distinct audio cue. There are already still a lot of people that have trouble recognizing that he's out of dashes as-is, (to the point where they're actively trying to juke a 2nd dash that you don't have), so letting him cancel at will would just further muddy the water. The deadzone concerns are real though, especially with all the other number changes. It's just something I'd have to see in practice.
On infection: I mean I get it, I really don't like the hinder either. I just see and have always seen the infection mechanic as a survivor time waster more than anything, and I don't think it makes sense tying a fundamental change to how Wesker's chases work (especially for non-fully infected survivors) to that mechanic. At least, not in the way presented here. If it was essentially a meter/"ultimate" ability that you build up by infecting survivors and can choose to use (like Trickster's main event, Oni's blood fury) and you got more meter when a survivor reaches full infection then sure, it's a design that makes sense from a "this is in the killer's control" standpoint.
But I also just don't think he needs any of that ultimate-esque stuff either, and that while the hinder probably isn't ideal, it at least gives injured survivors a reason to care about being fully infected in a way that isn't subtle like the cooldown reduction for every infected survivor thing is.
To summarize my approach to what infection needs to preserve if changed I suppose, the 2 important bits are: Making it so that it's punishing to be fully infected regardless of the survivor's health state, and making it so that the punishment is placed mostly, if not entirely on the fully infected survivor, not their team. E: I think the hinder accomplishes both those goals nicely enough, and it's hard to think of any other mechanic that could be introduced without feeling overly convoluted. I mean hell, even from a "realistic" mechanical perspective the hinder makes sense…it's well within the realm of possibility that a rapidly spreading infection would slow someone down.
On hug tech: My first thought is that I just don't think it's something they'd ever do. I think it'd be interesting to implement it as an intentional mechanic, and I'm not happy that it's so tied to frame rate that it's basically all but impossible to consistently pull off on console (or how you get variable distance with variable FPS). But it's so far outside of the realm of possibility (and fairly niche as to how useful it is for people that can pull it off) that I don't even think about the implications all that much.
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On varied cooldown: Good point, overall the "why" would be making only using one Dash less punishing, though I do get its extra work. Instead of a variable cooldown perhaps keeping token charge like Nurse might be more desirable.
Now thinking about those add-ons specifically, if this idea did come into the game I imagine they would have an extra clause saying adds or removes time for the first bound; making bound time/length more in line with the token recovery which could be interesting but again extra work.
Infection: I imagined the main punishment for injured survivors would simply be the fact he gets stronger but I understand. Another idea I had was that at max infection the survivor would get slammed into the ground, effecting both injured and healthy survivors making Wesker extremely dangerous when fully infected without changing the killer numbers. But that might be a little too strong, so maybe it only works on injured survivors because they are weaker.
Branching off the idea of max infection = danger, perhaps at max infection he recovers faster (in animation) when slamming / throwing a survivor or has a larger dash when he grabs to more guarantee a throw / slam. A small but significant change to his strength, keeping max infection a threat while not being too crazy.I do agree that hinderance works perfect to punish an individual survivor, and honestly I agree. Max infection should specifically affect one survivor. Which is why I feel like the idea above is more in line as to what may happen. To be honest I came up with the second proposition like on the spot and now I am more interested in this new proposition (will edit to add).
I do like the idea that the more he infects the more it builds up a sort of meter but honestly I would rather have that on a different killer than Wesker to keep it simple.
As for hug tech; I have no idea how they would add it nicely because of the FPS reason. I do imagine they could possibly do what they did with Chucky where perhaps if you hold the dash button you slide but if you don't hold it you do not slide, though testing should be done because it might cause more problems in strength if it was implemented like that.1 -
Instead of a variable cooldown perhaps keeping token charge like Nurse might be more desirable.
I think that'd be a nice QoL change on the killer end. Either that or don't pause the recharge. It would definitely give him a little more power, but I think on the survivor end when Wesker's readies a bound you kinda expect that he has 2 dashes anyway.
Another idea I had was that at max infection the survivor would get slammed into the ground
I kinda like the idea of making landing bounds on fully infected survivors a guaranteed down regardless of map geometry. It's something I hadn't considered as a possibility. I think the second proposal is neat too but I could see it backfiring or having 0 impact on a map like Rotten Fields.
I do like the idea that the more he infects the more it builds up a sort of meter but honestly I would rather have that on a different killer than Wesker to keep it simple.
Agreed.
I do imagine they could possibly do what they did with Chucky where perhaps if you hold the dash button you slide but if you don't hold it you do not slide, though testing should be done because it might cause more problems in strength if it was implemented like that.
I feel like it'd have to be a separate button that comes with a downside (an extended cooldown would be the simplest). If it was as simple as hold vs don't hold there'd be no reason not just hold it in most situations. I don't think the frame rate problem would continue to exist if they went in and added it as a feature. But yeah, being able to slide on everything like Chucky at will…probably never going to happen purely for balance reasons. That, and how do you add that mechanic without creating new art assets/animations to accommodate it. Hug tech is really goofy looking.
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The thing about the second proposal is it wouldnt affect how far he throws, simply how far he moves with the survivor. I can only imagine it being a positive personally but yeah its hard to say anything without testing.
Personally I like how Hug Tech looks, and considering that's how Snug looks I imagine they wouldnt change much except maybe add better visuals for the survivor. But yeah definitely would be balancing nightmare if it was just "hold button down." Perhaps it could work like Ghost Face lean to force it to only work at corners, with an indicator and everything. Of course not the same I could see it working like that, with the same window lean stalking has.I enjoy our conversations :D Nice to have proper talks / debates.
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