The "death before 6 hooks" penalty wasn't thought through
Comments
-
> Killer is having a rough match, 3 gens are done and he only got a few hooks: Felix, Jane, Zarina, Felix in this order
> Finds Felix again and hooks him, finally get a kill at 2 gens left
> Gen-regression perks are deactivated and the survivors get a gen repair boost for the last 2 gens
This is not a well thought out perk to aid the losing side. It's an aid to the survivor side, no matter whether they're losing or not.
3 -
You're the second person to tell me I'm missing the overall picture without telling me why the picture should look like that.
Why shouldn't it? A dead survivor is a massive advantage for the killer. The repair speed boost alleviates it, but unless it's a 100%+ increase, it won't compensate and the killer will still benefit.
And most importantly, why are you not advocating for the same mechanic that would affect the other side to get into the game at the same time?
Because we already have it. As survivors do gens, the playfield naturally shrinks. Resources naturally dwindle. The pressure on survivors mounts up, and all the guardrails BHVR's been experimenting with come off during EGC.
Killers have been inundated with comeback mechanics since the game's inception. Survivors getting one isn't cause to add yet more to the killer side.
-1 -
There's something else that is Also BS. If I play Unknown, Springtrap, Demogorgon or even Pinhead. There is a chance my time TPing was completely useless. Like if im the Unknown or Demogorgon if Hallucinations or Portal being messed with there's a chance that the person i just unhooked is doing the Dispell or portal removing and Pinhead is no different he needs his box to make him work so if the Unhooked survivor is using the box and he TPs to that survivor it was a complete waste of the killers time.
Ur basically gambling with ur own power.
I hate that survivors say that "well you can't win every game or oh ue just mad because you can't get ur 80 to 100% kill rate because you can't tunnel". What is the problem with that is meaning that the skill i got from playing my Main was all for nothing and im now forced to play brain dead because the game says I have to.
I know why they reworked Myers is because the devs know he would be unplayable in the nonsense of a Patch.
I've haven't touched this game sense the TWD chapter because I couldn't play how I wanted. Every time I found a strategy that worked it was nerfed into the ground making me now forget that even existed because they said so.
If this patch makes me have to play the way of the brain Dead or play killers I hate playing just to have a decent experience im Unstalling DBD forever. And ill put it on my shelf of the games that wasted my dang Time and money
4 -
"Why shouldn't it? A dead survivor is a massive advantage for the killer. The repair speed boost alleviates it, but unless it's a 100%+ increase, it won't compensate and the killer will still benefit."
Why should the killer's benefit get alleviated at all, considering they worked for that advantage and outplayed the other side well enough to obtain it (and it's their goal by design, too)? We're not talking about a tunneling killer. We're talking about a killer who simply advanced their objective, the one the game wants them to do.
And why should that benefit get alleviated even when the game is already well in the survivors' favor? This mechanic can easily activate when the killer gets their first kill overall at 2 gens left. It is in no way comparable to your bad faith argument about less pallets around.
"Because we already have it. As survivors do gens, the playfield naturally shrinks."
It does if you hold W and drop down all the pallets right away. Playing survivor well means prioritizing the correct gens and not wasting resources right away. If you spread gens well, the last remaining ones will be far away from each other, which penalizes more than half the roster, besides the usual suspects (Hillbilly, Nurse, Blight etc)
"Resources naturally dwindle."
Pallets dwindle as much as survivors use them. Windows are permanent, and if not you play pallets well you won't have wasted lots of them. And if you played the game well you will still have resources next to the gens that are left to do.
Also, a death is enough of an advantage to make permanent gen repair boost and deactivation of gen regression perks excusable, but when it comes to completed gens, you're saying the equivalent that's good enough is: less pallets around? Pallets that are fully in control of the survivors (they can even put them back up, now they could even recreate them with the new perk) and that cost time for the killer to break? Are we being for real?
"Killers have been inundated with comeback mechanics since the game's inception"
Both sides have. Both sides have plenty of 2nd chance mechanics and perks. Are you really going to argue against that? Let's be for real now.
3 -
Why should the killer's benefit get alleviated at all
Because it's been stated time and again that this is, by a country mile, the most effective shortcut to victory. Loads of killers have stated that this is such a colossal powerboost that it's why they tunnel. So if you want to reduce tunnelling, you have to address that.
Keep in mind that the non-tunnelling killer gets bonus regression, haste and intel, which very well might just offset the repair speed bonus anyway.
This mechanic can easily activate when the killer gets their first kill overall at 2 gens left.
Which doesn't change anything about the survivor's death being a huge boon to the killer. One dead with two gens left is perfectly manageable, and a repair speed boost isn't likely to change that.
It does if you hold W and drop down all the pallets right away.
No, it always does. No survivor plays without pallets, and areas with completed gens are places the killer doesn't need to patrol or pressure. The last gens are always slower because they're easier for the killer to consistently pressure. This is especially exemplified with 3-genning, which eventually became such a colossal advantage that it devolved into hour-long lock-outs.
Everyone knows the killer gets more dangerous over the course of the game.
If you spread gens well
Then you have an easier job pressuring in the mid-game, because those center gens need to be done for that.
Pallets dwindle as much as survivors use them. Windows are permanent, and if not you play pallets well you won't have wasted lots of them. And if you played the game well you will still have resources next to the gens that are left to do.
And they will be decreased and then gone. You can't pretend survivors have as much at their disposal late as they do early.
Both sides have plenty of 2nd chance mechanics and perks.
But you did have to toss in an 'and perks' there because you realised survivors got jack in the mechanics department, didn't you?
-2 -
"Loads of killers have stated that this is such a colossal powerboost that it's why they tunnel."
Mind you, we are saying "colossal powerboost" in regards to killing people, in the game where the killer side has one single objective: killing people. I'm not talking about tunneling as I even explicitly said "We're not talking about a tunneling killer" in my last post, I'm talking about following the role's main and sole objective, and you're saying that the killer advancing their objective by having killed one survivor is "the most effective shortcut to victory".
This is like saying "many cooks admit preparing the dough is the most effective shortcut to make a pizza".
"So if you want to reduce tunnelling, you have to address that."
If you want to address tunneling, you need to have mechanics that address tunneling. Tunneling means to play "with a tunnel vision" and hard focus on one single survivor, completely ignoring the others. That's the definition. Having a mechanic that affects that Dwight-Meg-Dwight-Jake-Dwight hooking order I mentioned earlier has nothing to do with tunneling, and you know it, and that's why you avoided addressing it at all.
And you can maintain the stance you want, but at least stop using "tunneling" as an excuse, because you effectively just want to add benefits to the survivor side whenever the killer gets a kill no matter whether they play fairly or not. And that's definitely a point of view that can be discussed fairly and be taken seriously, but as long as you preface it as "anti-tunneling" when it clearly isn't, you're just muddying the waters and it's not a fair way to discuss the mechanics you would like to see added to the game
"Keep in mind that the non-tunnelling killer gets bonus regression, haste and intel"
This whole post was about how Sadako has unpredicted interactions with the way these new mechanics work btw. And you're bringing up bonuses that wouldn't affect her at all, while she gets still stuck in anti-tunneling mechanics when not tunneling and using her power. Besides, you can't compare the "Intel" bonus to the permanent gen repair speed, since that can be easily and predictably countered by entering a locker when you see the killer pick up your teammate. The Pop Goes the Weasel-like mechanic could also very situational compared to the perma repair speed boost, as it straight out cancels for killers like Sadako and might not be useful for killers with low mobility depending on the game situation.
"This is especially exemplified with 3-genning, which eventually became such a colossal advantage that it devolved into hour-long lock-outs."
3-genning was a very problematic thing, and they dealt with it in a great way. There shouldn't be killers that have the power to maintain 3-gens from the very start of the game like old Skully and Knight, and all the changes they applied made it so whether a 3-gen happens or not is in equal control of both sides and it's a salvageable situation, unlike how it was back when Skull Merchant released. We could argue Singularity could get some changes for this and I wouldn't be against it (I'm just not knowledgeable about that guy at all but I do guess he could try to start 3gens more easily than anybody else right now), but that is a one-character situation here.
Otherwise, survivors are as much in control of the gens they complete, if not more; if a 3gens happens nowadays, it's very much possible they were the ones who caused it.
Nobody here was arguing that survivors shouldn't use pallets at all, but I'm saying that if you loop and play your pallets mindfully, you will still have pallets in the areas where it matters during endgame (= nearby gens that weren't completed yet). You say that killers are advantaged by less pallets being around, but this advantage comes from survivors deciding to use their resources when they used them, so it is effectively an advantage that is under the control of survivors. We should definitely make a case for Haddonfield, which is an objectively awful map for survivors that needs more pallets (and you could make the same case with roles reversed for the Gideon meat plant as well, which definitely needs less strong pallets), but aside from these two outliers, the way pallets work is perfectly balanced. Survivors have this resource that can help them a lot: if they use them well, it can win them the game. If they use it mindlessly and badly, they'll get punished for it. There's no reason we should add buffs to the survivors because the killer got a kill, no matter how the survivors are playing and faring.
"But you did have to toss in an 'and perks' there because you realised survivors got jack in the mechanics department, didn't you?"
Not at all, I said perks just in case you were including NOED in your reasoning, since that is usually brought up in these conversations and there are many survivor perks that can turn the tides just as radically as it can (and I believe all these perks should exist and they have their place in the game, no matter whether I like them or not).
Also, perks do matter when we're discussing balance, whether you like it or not. Pretty much every perk that was meta for the killer side in the last few years has been nerfed (and almost always for the better, there are like only 2 minor changes here I disagree with): Eruption, COB, Overcharge, Pop, Pain Res, Sloppy Butcher, PWYF, Franklin's, Knock Out... And many useless perks became viable, without becoming obnoxious (Predator, Zenshin, Grim Embrace, Thrilling Tremors...).
The same has happened on survivor side as well, and besides a few arguable changes on both occasions, that's amazing in both cases.
I actually play both sides (and I'm sorry for the assumption but I feel like I could bet money that the same is definitely not true for you) and I ironically have double the hours on survivor than on killer, and I can send you my DBD tracker stats to show that.
In terms of mechanical additions that generally help survivors, there were many that were added even just in the last 1-2 years, such as the 8 gen kick limit, the removal of hook grabs, longer hook states, longer aura reading for gates after gens are completed, faster chest opening times and better chests in general... I was one of the three people who actively used old maps and keys a lot and I personally hate the change, but when you consider the basekit items before and after, with no purple/iri addons, they are better now (old green keys, lol) and they allow survivors to basically equip perks like WoO without equipping those perks. And I only mentioned very recent changes. Mind you, I think all of these changes were great (besides maps and keys, but that's a personal thing), I'm bringing them up just because you forgot about them. All these changes, just like the improvements to killer mechanics (like no more 5-heals medkits and gen touches instantly stopping regression) all make for a better and more balanced game. And most of the anti-slugging and anti-tunneling changes proposed for this PTB do that, as well! Every anti-tunneling change they proposed is genuinely great. But the 6 hook thing affects too many cases that are NOT tunneling and that's why it's problematic and needs to either be changed or removed.
Saying survivors got nothing is just a lie at this point. I promise I will take you seriously even if you explicitly said "I want survivors to get bonuses whenever a killer gets a kill, no matter whether they were tunneling or not", because that's objectively what you have been arguing for since the start. And that's your opinion and you have the right to have it, I would heavily disagree with you still, but at least you're being clear about the things you're arguing for, without muddying the waters on purpose. But most people (not necessarily you) on this thread are calling me a tunneler despite my main concern here being that Sadako thing which is in no way tunneling.
if tunneling really is the only concern of everybody here, I don't understand why it's so hard to say "this mechanic should be tweaked so it still exists but doesn't affect non-tunneling situations". I don't understand why it's so important that this "anti-tunneling" mechanic should still affect Sadako's Condemn despite not being related to tunneling. And inevitably from my perspective it does kinda look like for some people in this thread it's not about tunneling at all.
1 -
"There's no reason we should add buffs to the survivors because the killer got a kill, no matter how the survivors are playing and faring."
Here I meant the "no matter" as "we shouldn't give them blanket buffs without considering how they are playing and faring", I realize it sounds weird phrased like that
-2 -
Mind you, we are saying "colossal powerboost" in regards to killing people, in the game where the killer side has one single objective: killing people.
Yes, we know. Killing is the objective, we've been over this plenty. But an early kill, making it a 3v1 as fast as possible, instantly skews the match miles in the killer's favour.
That's not part of the objective. You're not required to get a 3v1 ASAP. But it makes such a huge difference that it's a driving factor behind tunnelling. THE driving factor, even. You can't address the problem of tunnelling without addressing this factor.
Having a mechanic that affects that Dwight-Meg-Dwight-Jake-Dwight hooking order I mentioned earlier has nothing to do with tunneling, and you know it, and that's why you avoided addressing it at all.
But here's the thing: This same update feeds the killer a bunch of buffs in this scenario. If these two factors balance out, the non-tunneller is not, net, affected by these changes. So the non-tunneller isn't getting punished, just side-graded.
And again, it's extremely unlikely that the repair speed bonus by itself will offset the dead survivor.
This whole post was about how Sadako has unpredicted interactions with the way these new mechanics work btw. And you're bringing up bonuses that wouldn't affect her at all, while she gets still stuck in anti-tunneling mechanics when not tunneling and using her power.
Using her power to do what? Focus one survivor out of the game without hooking anyone else?
Otherwise, survivors are as much in control of the gens they complete
That's an oversimplification. Killers can absolutely change their gameplay to prioritise specific gens, and even if they don't hard-force a 3-gen, they can herd survivors towards it.
Ultimately, the game always slows down and naturally tips in the killer's favour as it progresses, that's a built-in way in which killers have their own comeback mechanics that the upcoming changes mirror.
In terms of mechanical additions that generally help survivors, there were many that were added even just in the last 1-2 years
But we weren't talking general changes. We were talking comeback, and second chance. Opening chests faster is not a comeback mechanism.
(Sorry for the shorter post, on mobile)
-2 -
Agree, should be 4th hook. If I hooked at least one other person, then I didn't hard tunnel someone therefore there is no reason for punishment.
3 -
It was thought through and the obvious conclusion is that it doesnt matter.
If a player dies to Condemn, Trap or something else before 6th hooks the game just rebalances to 3v1, the advantage you would gain is nullified by the bonus Survivors get and so their death is inconsequential.
Why do you think it will put the game grossly in the Survivors favour??
-4 -
i dont jnow if anyone already said this, but lets suppose that happens, lets suppose it happens with someone youve not hooked already, youll insta gain 3 hook states, i dont know if youve ever paid attention to your hook count when you do that, but it counts as all hook states needed to kill the guy, so if you have already hooked 3 times and you mori the guy you ve not hooked, you suffer nothing, because it will give you 3 hook states completing 6, sure, if you have not hooked anyone, them youll have to hook the guy, and hold the mori a little, well, take it easy with the morons is pretty much the idea of the change
0 -
Because it can trigger at any moment of the match, with any number of gens done and survivors left, and it will punish you for the mistakes of the survivors instead of them?
If you are playing Trapper and, for example:
- You hook Survivor A.
- You hook Survivor B.
- Survivor A got caught in a trap. Hook him again.
- You don't find any other survivor for a while. Survivor A got caught in another trap.
If you hook Survivor A again, even if you didn't tunnel that survivor in any way and that hook will be the result of their own incompetence, you don't get the "unique hook" buffs, you grant the rest of the survivors a boost on repair speed, and all gens can't be regressed or blocked at 2 - 3 gens done by now. So, you either ignore him and don't punish his mistake, or the game will punish you. Totally fair, not hand-holding at all.
But hey, do you really want to compensate for these atrocious mechanics? Let's implement this for survivors:
- If two generators are done without a hook happening in between, survivors get a repair penalty and reveal their aura to the killer.
- If the first 3 gens are done without a kill happening, all survivors get Exposed until one kill happens.
That's a great system to prevent gen rushing in compensation for the other changes, right?…
5 -
slugging doesn't work because base tenacity and unbreakable
1 -
I'm aware, but from the option given, it's still the better option. Hence the irony in this situation.
2 -
It being able to trigger at any point is not an issue, and Gen rushing is not the issue we are dealing with in this PTB, if its a big enough issue then maybe.
-8 -
"We shouldn't preemptively address anything affected by the change because it's not explicitly part of the change."
Seriously, bro?
5 -
I literally told you why it is an issue. In fact, it is one of the biggest issues with these mechanics outside pure exploitation from the survivor part.
If there are 4 survivors still alive and 3 gens have been done, the only way to make a comeback is by removing one survivor from the match and hoping for them to snowball. Something you won't be able to do if you have less than 6 hooks, even if survivors mess up and it will be their fault, because then you will be left with 3 buffed survivors and / or not be able to regress the last 2 gens. I think it is not that hard to understand.
And gen rushing has been an issue for years now. And it will be even worse than before because, again, now we won't be able to counter it in the only way BHVR has left us (after so much hand-holding basekit mechanic and regression nerfing) without getting punished for it.
Post edited by Batusalen on4 -
Gen rushing really starts to feel like a problem when the entire team stacks repair-speed perks and brings toolboxes. As a setup killer like Trapper or Hag, it can be frustrating to have three gens pop before you even finish laying out your web of traps; especially when survivors can still exploit long-standing bugs to wipe them out in seconds.
It’s an issue you mostly notice when playing killer at mid-to-high MMR. At lower levels, it’s rare. Compare that with tunneling, which shows up at every skill level simply because, under the current game mechanics, it offers the most efficient way to secure kills. Right now, tunneling provides more value than any other strategy a killer can use.
That’s why I’m skeptical about the upcoming changes. I don’t think they’ll actually solve either problem. Instead, we’ll probably see fewer people picking lower-tier killers and more people leaning into the strongest ones, while still tunneling and running perks like Deadlock (No Holds Barred), which won’t really be affected by the anti-tunneling adjustments.
1 -
My guy if Survivors have made it to 3 Gens and you have not made it to 6th hook and they decide to kill the last Survivor to gain the compensation and try their luck at using it then you should slug the Survivor and make a play, if you are Pig, Pyramid Head you will have to make the play with the compensation.
Again I ask the question I made in my first post, Why do you think the 6th hool rule will be grossly in the Survivor's favour??
-5 -
True, if no one died before 4th hook, than they were not tunneled. Should be "if 3rd hook is a sacrifice, then all survivors gain 2 % repair speed for the remainder of the trial and decrease maximum regression events on generators by 1"
0 -
This is just an anti-killer update to hand hold awful survivors wrapped up in a fake anti-tunnel package. Any more than 3 hooks isnt tunneling, and a back to back hook isnt either unless its right off the hook. It's just more ways to punish good sensible killer strategies that actually make sense with the way the game is designed.
3 -
The main point is that Sadako's power is LITERALLY the ability to be able to instantly kill a survivor. I'm not saying this should be happening every game, and in fact, good survivors won't let it happen. But when they royally screw up, or they deliberately ignore the TVs because they want to gen rush, Sadako should not be punished further by giving the remaining survivors even more gen pressure.
If the survivors get mori'd by Sadako this is 100% on them. The TVs are super easy to locate and her power has been made far too easy to counter in this iteration.
1 -
Yeah I agree, when I red this mechanic and the "if you kill the previously hooked survivor, you lose gen regression/block", I thought it was overtuned.
That's way too restrictive, there is a lot of non hard tunneling scenarios.
Also they need to nerf commodious toolbox down to 24 charges (32 now) and BNP giving -7 charges (now-10).
A bit off topic : also nerf iri syringe to 45 seconds passive healing with no speed increased by perks or add-ons instead of 18 secs.
2 -
the whole patch wasn't thought through
3 -
And answering your question again: Because it can trigger at any moment of the match, with any number of gens done and survivors left, and it will punish you for the mistakes of the survivors instead of them. It will put the killer in lose / lose situations while allowing survivors to not get punished for their mistakes. It also allows the survivors to exploit it to put the killer at an even greater disadvantage.
Seriously, it's not that hard to understand. You didn't even need that much playtime as a killer to know how this patch will affect the game.
0 -
To be fair, that doesn't inherently mean it tips in the survivor's favour. Just saying that it could activate at any moment doesn't even make the case for it lessening the benefit of a dead survivor dependant on context, which is the take I'd personally agree with.
I think it's premature to assume there'll be a lose/lose scenario here when we don't know how all of this looks. If the repair speed bonus survivors get for a death prior to six hooks is like, ten percent, it won't affect you in the least. If it's like, double speed, then we're looking at serious concerns for killers who end up with a death prior to six hooks because of survivor mistakes.
It's not even unlikely that purposefully trading the repair speed buff for a dead survivor would be worth it, frankly. You do need to make the case for why this update - before we even know the numbers, mind you - would tip the situation into the survivor's favour as opposed to tipping it to the killer's favour less. That's the part that's being contested here.
On paper, I kinda like the idea of that being a choice to weigh for more advanced players. Do I kill this survivor and snowball to victory, or slug them and keep the gens a bit slower?
We just have to know what the numbers are before we know where any of this lands.-2 -
I already made the case for why it tips into the survivors favor both by explaining…
… and by example.
If you are playing Trapper and, for example:
· You hook Survivor A.
· You hook Survivor B.
· Survivor A got caught in a trap. Hook him again.
· You don't find any other survivor for a while. Survivor A got caught in another trap.
If you hook Survivor A again, even if you didn't tunnel that survivor in any way and that hook will be the result of their own incompetence, you don't get the "unique hook" buffs, you grant the rest of the survivors a boost on repair speed, and all gens can't be regressed or blocked at 2 - 3 gens done by now. So, you either ignore him and don't punish his mistake, or the game will punish you. Totally fair, not hand-holding at all.
Also, in the main post of the update, where I already debunked your attempt to defend this, I also explained some of the ways survivors can exploit this mechanic to gain an unfair advantage.
If you are unable to understand it or you are adamant to admit that on paper this update includes the most exploitable, hand-holding, and one-sided mechanics they have ever thought of, it's on you. Like it is now, it will give an unfair advantage and protect survivors from their mistakes, no matter the numbers they put there.
The only good thing about this update is that it is showing who really cares about the balance of the game and who is just a survivor main in the worst meaning of the term that doesn't even understand the game he is playing.
1 -
I think you might've misunderstood, no shade meant, so just so we're on the same page:
The thing being contested here is not whether it benefits survivors at all, nor if it might affect you when you're not tunnelling someone. What's being contested is if it actually harms killer instead of benefiting the killer less.
To illustrate what I mean, imagine some random numbers that are fully chosen here just because they're very simple.
Imagine that, when the game progresses from 1v4 to 1v3, the killer grows in power by 100%. Again, this isn't meant to actually reflect the game itself, just to give you an easily understood starting point.
What's being suggested here is that instead of the killer lowering in power by any percentage as they kill someone and the repair buff kicks in, the killer instead only grows in power by 50%. That benefits survivors in the sense that it's less damaging to them than it would've been before… but the killer isn't actually harmed. The killer gets stronger, just by a lower number. They're still stronger because someone's still dead, it's just not as BIG of an advantage as it would be in the game right now.
That's why pointing out that it can activate at any time doesn't make the case for it tipping in the survivor's favour. You'd have to demonstrate why you think you would lose power instead gaining less power.
(Though just to be clear I am ONLY talking about the repair speed buff here, not the inability to regress/block generators. Those are separate penalties with separate triggers, and I'm only talking about one of them.)
-2 -
Your attempt to move the goalpost would make sense if it wasn't because being 1v3 is only an advantage for the killer at the start of the match, where 3 survivors doing 5-4 gens is hard to accomplish.
That's why, as I said, it triggering at any point in the match is a problem and puts the killer at disadvantage. Because with less than 3 gens left and 4 survivors alive, you don't have to kill a survivor and pray for them to snowball mistakes to have an advantage. You have to do it for just the chance to make a comeback because it's almost guaranteed you've already lost.
Also, you cherry-picked the "repair speed buff" one, because you know that the other one is even worse, and you can't argue that it is a total advantage for survivors. If you are at 2 gens with 4 survivors alive and the only one in the second hook is the last survivor you hooked, or if the only survivor you found for a while is the last hooked, you can't kill him unless you can afford to not regress or block those 2 gens for the other 3 survivors.
So, no matter how you want to look at it or what twisted logic you want to use. All this grants big benefits to survivors and hurts killers in many ways through all the match, especially those that are not high-mobility ones. That, on top of being highly exploitable, as I already explained to you in another post.
Hand-holding, unfair, one-sided, and totally exploitable. There is no defense of this mechanics, at least as they are explained in the dev log.
0 -
…Okay, I'm still interested in this conversation, but for the record: Clarifying my position is not moving the goalposts, and I'm not cherrypicking the six-hook limit penalty, that's just what this thread is about.
For the record, I do believe the other penalty to be more severe, but it's also the one that is completely within the killer's control to avoid- this thread is about how the repair speed buff may come into play without malicious intent, with OP talking about Sadako specifically and other comments discussing other elements.Now, moving on, I do have a few things to say.
The first and most obvious thing to point out is that moving to a 1v3 improves the killer's power at any time, and while it does scale down in effectiveness the more gens are completed, it doesn't take a particularly big hit until all the gens are done.
This is because the killer, in a 1v3, is capable of reducing gen repair to zero through regular gameplay alone. Hook, get in chase, someone peels off to rescue… nobody's on generators. In a 1v4 scenario, there's one survivor spare to do gens.
This scales to other concepts, too- there's just one less survivor to react to anything the killer does. You can snowball not because gen repair takes longer, but because there's just fewer survivors to juggle everything that needs doing.Now, second, the Trapper example. It's worth pointing out that this is a problem that is hyper-specific to that one killer, but that is a specific scenario worth considering. While I absolutely recommend changes to Trapper to alleviate this problem - I'm cooking a potential post that I want to make after I see the PTB and have a more complete understanding - it's worth taking a step back and looking at the bigger picture.
Most specifically, you ask why you should be punished, but that's what people have been attempting to convey to you. Is it a punishment to be rewarded less than you were before? Is it a punishment to get 50% extra power instead of 100% extra power?
No, of course not. It's still a reward, it's just a lesser reward. It still benefits you, it just isn't as potent as it used to be. This is the key point to consider, and I'm not saying you have to agree but I am saying it is the thing people are largely talking about here.The bottom line is two very important things, which I'll bullet point for convenience:
- Whether or not the repair speed buff is a punishment or just less of a reward depends ENTIRELY on what percentage it is, and we can't know that until tomorrow.
- An early 1v3 is so tremendously powerful that it's practically unwinnable for 99% of survivor teams. While the specific implementation is worth discussing, the general idea of lessening that is completely worth exploring.
0 -
Now, second, the Trapper example. It's worth pointing out that this is a problem that is hyper-specific to that one killer, but that is a specific scenario worth considering.
It can be Trapper, it can be Pig, it can be Ghostface… it can be any M1 killer without mobility (in fact, it can be any killer, but those are more affected by this) that has to pass the opportunity of taking out a survivor from the game when he needs it because then they will grant speed / prevent gen regression for the rest of the match, no matter how many gens are left. It's not my fault that you are unable to understand that an example of a situation is not to be taken literally but as a way of visualizing a concept. But hey, I will give it a more generic context for you.
If you are playing killer and, for example:
- You hook Survivor A.
- You hook Survivor B.
- You find Survivor A before getting healed. Hook him again.
- You don't find any other survivor for a while. Survivor A walks to you by mistake.
- There are only 3-2 gens left.
Again, your options are:
- Ignore him and lose more time that you don't have finding, chasing, and hooking someone else.
- Granting speed and not being able to regress the gens left to the other survivors.
The survivor doesn't get punished for his mistake, and you get punished whatever you do instead. And even if it wasn't by the survivor mistake and you just find him again, the same will still apply.
Is it a punishment to be rewarded less than you were before?
Yes, especially when you are punished for playing well, and the ones rewarded are those that would lose the match otherwise (by, for example, leaving gens undone to go for saves when you have 70 seconds per phase and no need to rush it, or losing time healing after a hook instead of investing that time finishing the last 2 gens, etc.).
It is supposed to be a series of anti-tunneling mechanics but instead is just another hand-holding mechanic saving survivors from their own mistakes and incompetence. That's, again, one of the multiple problems with this, no matter what logic you want to apply trying to defend it.
3 -
The reason it's hyper-specific to Trapper is because there is, not to be pedantic, a giant difference between just happening not to find another survivor before stumbling across survivor A again, and survivor A stepping in a bear trap soon after unhooking. The principle may mostly apply across the cast, but it's both significantly more impactful for Trapper, and also missing a key distinction that I'll touch on in a moment.
But, genuinely, I'm fine looking at the other scenarios for other killers, so let's do that next.First off, the big obvious elephant in the room to acknowledge: When it comes to just not finding other survivors, the game is set to change so that's very unlikely to happen. Remember, the dev update also includes basekit information to help you get into another chase ASAP— these changes have to be looked at holistically, they're clearly all designed to feed in to one another.
Second, we're still not acknowledging the core point: We do not know if the repair speed buff is actually enough to outweigh having a dead survivor. It is extremely likely that getting a survivor dead opportunistically is completely worth trading away the remaining generators being a touch faster.
After all, there's a degree to which it kinda doesn't matter how much faster survivors can do generators if none of them have the breathing room to actually sit at one for any extended period of time. It has to be a really huge bonus for them to get work done in a situation like that.Again, this must be made clear- we do not know if it is a punishment. We do not know if it leaves you worse off than keeping that survivor alive.
If the number is low enough, it's a tiny bit of a comeback mechanic to stop trials from effectively ending too early but won't make a huge difference. If the number is high enough, we have more reason to be concerned about the occasional misfire or survivor mistake being accommodated for. We can't be conclusive about this until we know what the numbers are.Third and finally, it should be acknowledged - though it isn't the core point and isn't the main thing to consider - that you can still slug survivor A if it really comes to it. That's still an option, it's less pressure but it's still pressure. The killer will have options to deal with situations like this even if the repair speed buff is genuinely that extreme, or you'd be at risk of the other penalty instead/as well.
Lastly, this isn't a point in response to yours but just a reminder: This isn't necessarily a defence of the specific implementation of these ideas (mostly because we don't know the specific implementation), it's more a conversation about the ideas. Mulling over the potential problems and providing counter examples to those potential problems.
It's a discussion, about whether or not these things are problems. We don't have enough information yet to defend or criticise these ideas too concretely.0 -
All the other features the reward killers for not tunneling are fine, but it's impossible to punish killers for tunneling because you can't programatically determine human intent and dole out punishment based on that. That's when innocent players who are just playing the game are getting punished, and freedom of play is restricted.
I don't totally mind this feature going through IF it accounted for the number of generators remaining when the death happened. If it happens at 5 or 4 gens, I think it would be reasonable.
If someone gets tunneled out at 5, 4 gens, the game is almost always already over at that point. Then it would make sense for a repair boost.
But as proposed, this and the "block all gens from being regressed if someone is hooked twice in a row and dies" mechanics are, quite frankly, very incredibly poorly thought out.
There are many Killers who cannot control who they down or Kill with their powers, such as Trapper, Knight, Sadako, Pig, Springtrap (catching someone in doors)… and you can't leave them on the ground to avoid the penalty cuz now that's a wasted chase since Survivors can pick themselves up now.
4 -
Depends on how many gens are left, what killer you're playing and what the map resources look like.
0 -
The reason it's hyper-specific to Trapper is because there is, not to be pedantic, a giant difference between just happening not to find another survivor before stumbling across survivor A again, and survivor A stepping in a bear trap soon after unhooking.
There's no difference: You can't kill that survivor, or you will get punished for it. The concept and outcome are exactly the same. If you want to make an example of a concept applicable to multiple scenarios specific to one because it benefits your argument, that is your problem.
Also, it's funny that you pretend to tell me what my own argument meant.
Remember, the dev update also includes basekit information to help you get into another chase ASAP— these changes have to be looked at holistically, they're clearly all designed to feed in to one another.
Yeah, because survivors knowing that after a hook their aura is revealed would just stay in the same place so the killer can get them. In no way is it possible that the survivor has either left or hidden by the time a non-mobility killer gets to where his aura was shown.
Obviously, they thought about it a lot and compensated for the enormous penalties the other mechanics applied.
Second, we're still not acknowledging the core point: We do not know if the repair speed buff is actually enough to outweigh having a dead survivor.
The one not acknowledging the core point here is you. And the true core point is: Why should survivors get any buff just because the killer is playing well and / or punishing them for their mistakes?
The numbers don't matter. The important thing here is why can the game put me in a situation where I get penalized and / or the other team rewarded for completing my main objective, and how is that fair? Because again, using that logic, let's implement an anti-genrushing mechanic for survivors:
- If two generators are done without a hook happening in between, survivors get a repair penalty and reveal their aura to the killer.
- If the first 3 gens are done without a kill happening, all survivors get Exposed until one kill happens.
That is a fair compensation mechanic for the ones they pretend to implement, not some conditional haste, regression, and aura reading that depends on the killer you are playing.
After all, there's a degree to which it kinda doesn't matter how much faster survivors can do generators if none of them have the breathing room to actually sit at one for any extended period of time. It has to be a really huge bonus for them to get work done in a situation like that.
Well, you are saying it yourself. There is no way that the numbers are not so ridiculously beneficial to survivors that it is not an advantage, or what would be the point to even implement it?
We all are saying "on paper", "it's just a dev log, not a patch" and "we'll have to wait for the PTB", but in reality we all know how it's going to be.
Again, this must be made clear- we do not know if it is a punishment. We do not know if it leaves you worse off than keeping that survivor alive. […] We can't be conclusive about this until we know what the numbers are.
We do. But again, the problem is that it shouldn't even be an option. This system is supposed to punish tunnelers, not hand-hold survivors and benefit them in any degree just because the first survivor died too early or one survivor was hooked twice in a row. That's it.
Third and finally, it should be acknowledged - though it isn't the core point and isn't the main thing to consider - that you can still slug survivor A if it really comes to it.
No, you can't. Because unless it is changed, the moment a survivor reaches 90 seconds on the ground, he will get free Unbreakable. So, there is no reason to go get up that survivor, because sooner or later he will get up by himself.
Everybody is going to continue doing gens while that survivor uses his free Tenacity to get close to them, building both recovery and those 90 seconds up. If the survivor gets there before the gen is completed, the other survivor gets him up instantly, and both finish the gen. If the gen is done before, the one doing the gen can catch him up midway and get him up instantly. If he gets those 90 seconds, now he can get up without any help for the rest of the match.
In other words, you can't get pressure by slugging survivors anymore. Not at the start of the match, where at least 2 survivors will keep doing gens, and not at the end, where they gain free Unbreakable and are able to get up themselves. That's one of the other problems here.
[…] Mulling over the potential problems and providing counter examples to those potential problems. It's a discussion, about whether or not these things are problems.
There is no discussion. They are problems without any doubt, and the only true solution would be to ditch the whole thing.
But we have to do it, right? Survivors need Daddy BHVR to hold their hand even more than they already do, or they will cry? All right, let's solve all problems with this atrocious mechanic. And I'm going to be extremely generous.
Anti-Slugging system:
- If the survivor is in the dying state for 90 consecutive seconds, he can get up without any help.
- The timer resets everytime the survivor is downed.
- Revert the auto-recovery change. You need to stay still and push the button to recover.
That's it. They will still be able to move fast over time, but at least in the last stages of the match you will be able to get some pressure, as they will have to still recover most of the bar by themselves or make another survivor lose some time healing them if they decide to move for help.
Anti-
LosingTunneling system:- Revert unhooked survivors being immune to killer instinct.
- In other words, remove the Legion indirect nerf.
- Prevent survivors from using items while the unhook effects are active / Remove losing collision with the killer.
- Don't allow flashbang exploits.
- Make the use of items and activated perks a Conspicuous action.
- Relevant later.
- Prevent survivors from getting hit while unhook effects are active.
- No more weaponizing free Endurance by bodyblocking and then crying for being hooked again.
- Remove seeing the killer aura while unhooked.
- No free info for SWF.
- Allow Killers to see hook phases in addition to the last hooked survivor.
- Something that should be already in the game, more so now with all the conditions on hooks.
- Change repair speed buff condition: If the last hooked survivor is killed while less than 2 gens are done, the rest of the survivors get a repair buff.
- Still not good, as again, survivors should not be rewarded for losing. But at least now don't punish the killer for playing good, and it still allow him for a comeback mid-late game while compensating survivors for early tunneling.
- Change to regression block: If the last hooked survivor is killed after being downed before 60 seconds have passed since being unhooked, all generators can't be regressed or blocked.
- Truly penalize only tunnelers.
- It activates if the last hooked survivor is downed again in 60 seconds after being unhooked to prevent the killer from just slugging him and wait.
- If a conspicuous action is done before the time passes, it will deactivate.
- If the survivor gets up from the dying state by any means, it will deactivate.
- The killer will see the effect time left alongside the last survivor hooked icon in the UI, so he knows when he can hook him again.
- This, along with all other changes, should allow for the unhooked survivor to get to safety and not be worthy for the killer to tunnel him.
Extra:
- All hooking benefits for the killer stay in the end game.
Or:
- Free Haste and Endurance on unhook are also deactivated at the end game.
- Time to either stop granting survivors that don't know how to coordinate saves guaranteed escapes or let me chase the other survivors till the end.
Extra 2:
- My Anti-Genrushing system, as explained earlier.
- If the killer is punished for doing his objective too fast and not giving a chance to the survivors, the reverse should be true as well. It is only fair, right?…
There. It still compensate survivors for not doing good early game, but at least there is less room for the killer to get put in lose / lose situations and, unlike the official version, it really punishes tunneling while preventing any major exploits of the mechanics.
But of course, these changes are not as hand-holding as the originals, so I have the hunch that for one reason or another, you are not going to like them...
Post edited by Batusalen on1 -
So turns out its 25% vs 3v1 and it doesnt work if Survivors leave their Survivors on hook.
That isnt strong.
-7 -
If that's true… are you telling me that one survivor doing a gen in 72 seconds and two in 42 seconds IS NOT STRONG? When it can activate with any amount of gens left????
Dude, you are delusional. Like, seriously.
3 -
Dont call people names sir, we can agree to disagree.
-4 -
Mods, may I ask why my title was edited? @Rizzo
The original title was <The "death before 6 hooks" penalty is really dumb and wasn't thought through>
I didn't call any person dumb, I didn't call the devs dumb and would never, obviously. I said this particular decision is really dumb, while praising other changes from this PTB in the same post, so I thought it was clear it was not an attack on anybody.
May I ask why that needed to be edited out?
Post edited by tuttoinunavolta on3 -
Well, we already have the numbers. And it is even WORSE than anybody could have thought, with a sprinkle of regression perks on top of it all.
Anything more to say? Aren't you going to keep defending these atrocious changes?
2 -
You're being very unpleasant, you know that?
I'm happy to have a conversation if it's civil.
-1 -
Cause saying something is dumb is not constructive and these posts are shared with the developers who dont need to get torn up by your verbage. Its their work to be listening to you, not their punishment. They demand our respect.
-2 -
I absolutely agree that they demand our respect, and I apologize if me calling the new mechanic dumb offended any of the them.
I would say that comparing "this new mechanic is dumb" to a punishment or a deliberate attempt at torning up the devs themselves seems a bit too extreme though, I would never call the actual people at BHVR (who always work hard on the game all the time, and have made great changes in this same patch too for example) dumb, and that would be the case even if I disliked every single change ever added to the game. I provided constructive criticism in my post, the original title highlighted my discontent with the proposed change without in any way addressing the people who work on the game.
Either way my question was really just out of curiosity since I didn't expect it, at the end of the day the important part of my original post was in the post itself. And if that did in fact offend anybody on the team, my original intentions become secondary and I obviously apologize for the hurt.
0 -
In other words, you are happy to have a conversation when you can use twisted logic and fallacies to defend the indefensible. I didn't let you do that and proved you wrong, so now you don't have anything more to say. Even less now that there is no more "we have to wait for the numbers" excuse.
Got it, nice talk.
4 -
Genuinely, if you want to discuss it now that we have the numbers, I'm happy to do that. Just tone down the aggression, that's all.
-3 -
Its just uncalled for language, its a work environment and you kind of have to meet the standard of office culture when you are here. All you need to do is provide the constructive criticism any other criticism, especially name calling is just not kosher.
-1 -
The system definitely needs to be polished. I am thinking something similar to how the old hatch spawns used to behave. No penalty for killing a survivor after 8 hooks, minus 1 for each generator done.
So let's say the survivor team is just getting steamrolled. On the 8th hook with 0 gens done, there won't be a penalty.
When 1 gen is done, this lessens to 7 hooks. 2 gens makes it 6 as we have now.
3 gens complete means we are down to needing 5 hook actions.
4 gens complete means 4 hook actions.
And with all 5 gens done, it's down to 3, which is still pretty much the minimum you'd need to kill anyone to begin with.
I hope that's more constructive!
Post edited by YamamuraVideoRentals on0 -
the devs should know this . They should play both sides of their game . If they want to push this life let them . The fact rhey are asking what specifically we find an issue with in this ptb speaks volumes. They lost the plot to their own game and there's no feedback to fix that. Just accept hese changes or leave . I'm leaving in a month🫡
1 -
Guys, can we simply just agree that 25% is definitely not "nothing" but it's also not gamebreaking, it's very strong but I'd like to see on the long term how this actually plays in a 3v1 at one gen left, two gens and three gens left. Beyond that is unwinnable.
42s for a duo does seem very fast though.-1 -
I disagree. It's not gamebreaking now. The moment survivors start to pick up and make use of it, especially SWF, gens are going to fly even with one survivor out of the match.
In fact, let's see more numbers with the 25% bonus applied (PD: Please, someone tell me that I'm wrong and toolboxes don't work this way. I'm serious. These numbers are ridiculous):
- 1 survivor (1.25 c/s) = 72 seconds.
- 2 survivors (2.125 c/s) = 42.35 seconds.
- 1 survivor (1.25 c/s) + Invocation: Weaving Spiders (-10 c) = 64 seconds.
- 2 survivors (2.125 c/s) + Invocation: Weaving Spiders (-10 c) = 37.64 seconds.
- 1 survivor (1.25 c/s) + Commodious Toolbox (+ 0.5 c/s for 21.33 s) = 63.47 seconds.
- 2 survivors (2.125 c/s) + 2 Commodious Toolbox (+ 0.85 c/s for 21.33 s) = 33.82 seconds.
- 1 survivor (1.25 c/s) + Commodious Toolbox + Wire Spool + Socket Swivels (+ 0.8 c/s for 24.44) = 56.36 seconds.
- 2 survivors (2.125 c/s) + 2 Commodious Toolbox + Wire Spool + Socket Swivels (+ 1.36 c/s for 24.44) = 26.71 seconds.
- 1 survivor (1.25 c/s) + Giga Toolbox (+ 0.8 c/s for 24.45 s) + Invocation: Weaving Spiders (-10 c) = 48.35 seconds.
- 2 survivors (2.125 c/s) + 2 Giga Toolbox (+ 1.36 c/s for 24.44) + Invocation: Weaving Spiders (-10 c) = 22.95 seconds.
- The toolboxes don't even get consumed here.
And let's remember, this doesn't even count great skillchecks, a third survivor or the other many ways you can receive even more repair bonuses or reduce total charges on gens…
So, how is going to play out if the changes in the PTB get to live as is? Simple, at minimum:
- SWF exploiting these mechanics to get an enormous advantage and / or ending games in a flash.
- A rise in the pick rate of high-tier, high-mobility killers, as now they are definitely the only ones able to compete.
- A rise of tunneling and facecamping with endgame builds, as now you will be at a disadvantage most of the match, so people will get his real fight at the endgame when generators don't matter.
- A reduction of killer mains that will simply start playing survivor or stop playing the game altogether.
And after some time, BHVR, in all their wisdom, will release a patch to solve all this… by punishing the killer if he looks at the hooked survivor for more than 3 seconds, and another one that opens the exit gates if the killer is in a 40 meters range from the hook.
That's it. I don't need to get a punch in the guts to know how is going to play out and that it will hurt a lot.
Post edited by Batusalen on1
