Make LEADER Affect Vaulting Speed!
Make leader affect vaulting speed
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fv340yni8Xg&t=3590s
59:48
The Devs talked about Leader and how the high numbers might have become problematic for vaulting windows. Perks like Resilience Do affect windows, which the Devs believed to be cool, but of course only in a managed amount. Too much would feel awkward or game-breaking.
Here is the problem
What if we want Leader to affect vaulting speed?
Hello everyone!
In this post, we will cover:
-how we can make leader affect vaulting speed.
-how we can allow all vaulting speed increasing perks to stack.
-how we can create any future vaulting speed perk without any conflict.
-how we can give a perk 10 quintillion% vaulting speed;
-and most importantly: how to prevent any of this from being an issue!
Let's get right into it:
Problematic values
We clearly have a problematic value here. But what is a problematic value?; It's a value that if it's increased by too much, it'll make the game malfunction.
Dead By Daylight have already defined 1 value to be problematic and that is the "luck" value. Luck unlike other values is artificially halted at a certain point.
But there are more problematic values; Vaulting speed or anything that affects animations, hell even healing: If you could heal within 1 second, then you could heal yourself faster than a killer could hit you constructively!
So how do we deal with these problematic values? We can of course create many independent solutions for each problematic variable; 1 random limit for Luck, customary managing of vaulting-speed increasing perks to prevent an overdose... but that's a drag...
League of Legends
LoL had the same issue, but with movement-speed. At a certain point above 400+ movement-speed, you'd receive an artificial diminished return over your movement-speed: buying 100 MS would only grant you 50 (0.5 multiplier after x MS). Although it works when you have limited items, it still isn't perfect enough to solve:
How we can give a perk 10 quintillion% vaulting speed and not have it being a problem.
In order to deal with all problematic values, we need to create a system that allows us to individually define what constitutes a problematic value (For vaulting-speed 15% for example) and have that system grant diminished returns per extra %.
And by accident, we might just have the perfect way to handle this:
Asymptotes to achieve diminishing returns.
We will use the formula:
b is what we believe should be the highest value before we consider that value being problematic.
a = 20 - b
x = the amount increase you get from your perks as notated in the description. (For resilience this would be 9% for example)
y = the value that you experience in game. The perks use this value to determine your speed.
In order to make this work, we must create an if statement run once during initialisation, saying:
And that is all we needed to do! From now on, we can let all buff perks affect vaulting-speed, have all other problematic values managed, and all that just by using the strategy for diminishing returns explained above! That's all you need to know.
But for those of you who are left wondering:
"I'm not exactly sure what we just did..."
This is what we did:
1 We use an asymptote. Asymptotes are well known for their ability to never reach a certain variable. It doesn't matter how much you insert in X, you can never reach a certain Y, despite Y increasing as long as X increases.
2 b is the variable where we got to define which value should never be super-ceded. If we pick 100 as b, then no player, even with 10 quintillion% vaulting-speed would be able to vault faster than 100% of the vaulting-speed. They would have more vaulting speed than someone with only 1 million% vaulting-speed, but they still cannot surpass b.
3 It is important to understand that the asymptote only starts diminishing at a certain point. Only at that point do we want to use the formula.
This is why a must be 20-b if we have a Dividend of 100. That makes the formula X ALWAYS intersect our formula exactly where the asymptote starts giving us diminishing returns:
The turning point from which we transition from the Blue to the Red line is the b-10 which you can find in the Code.
As you can see in the image above, using our method, the X variable will follow the green line until it slowly crouches up to b while never being able to reach/surpass it.
Note: It doesn't matter what b is, because the previously mentioned rules ALWAYS are true as long as the Dividend is 100.
You can use this method for every problematic variable! The only thing you have to do is define b, and that is indeed the minimal thing we should have to do when solving each problematic variable!; To say which number is too much and have the code (our method) deal with the rest.
End Note
I hope that explains it all. If this method for diminishing returns was used on all variables that should never exceed a certain point, we wouldn't ever have to spend on specific solutions again, like the "luck cap".
We would have a basic system keeping everything in check and allowing perks like Leader to be affecting vaulting speed, without ever becoming a problem!
Comments? Remarks? Leave them down below!
Thank you for reading.
For those who want to see the method in action, check the vid below: from 0:00 to 4:02.
The Advanced Method
For those of you who are interested in how to implement the mathematically perfect method for diminishing returns;
This video will cover both the previous discussed method (named the simple version and the Perfect method.
The simple method is meant for numbers between 0 and about 100. The perfect method is meant of all positive numbers. from 0 to infinity.
(Starts at 4:03)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hH9rn0ERn7g
List of issues that could've been prevented with this method:
1: The artificial luck cap
2: The Save the Best for Last nerf + Unrelenting Nerf
3: The artificial We'll make it cap tied to the perk
4: The leader vaulting speed removal
Comments
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Vaults are fine and a good vaulting loop can already hurt most standard killers.10
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This is a lot of effort for a troll post11
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This content has been removed.
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@Free_Hugs said:
This is a lot of effort for a troll postI don't think you've read it if you think it's a troll post.
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@legionnbuff said:
There are bigger issues right now in the game,this is nothing compared to other bugsThere would only be 1 type of post if we were only allowed to cover the biggest issue (:
But this is definitely an issue that will come up more frequently the more perks are introduced.
If the luck mechanic was handles differently, we could've already seen it in the game and never run into such problems again as this solution works for every scenario and is very intuitive and fair.0 -
Oh, no, I read it in full. Including the painful League of Legends comparison.
What you're suggesting would both heavily disfavor every killer except Nurse and Legion in a chase, when M1 killers like trapper are all ready considered unplayable garbage at tier 1, and be both confusing and a poor player experience for survivors trying to stack the perks and they're not as effective as they say they should be on the perks themselves.
In essence, for essentially no gain other than "I want this" you are creating two much bigger problems.
1: Pressure on killers to play the two most unfun killers in the game to be competitive, harming both survivor and killer variety and enjoyment.
2: Creating a clarity issue where survivors trying to stack perks are dissatisfied when they do not function as they say they do.
And if you argue that #2 can be alleviated by BHVR intentinally making the math clearer on tooltips in game, keep in mind they use a "greatly/moderately/slightly" description for all of their effects. the same kind of "slightly" that can mean "pig's crouch time is halved" versus "pig's crouch time is reduced by 25%" both being described by the same "slightly"
I was giving you the benefit of the doubt saying this was a troll post. I wished you didn't suggest something this I'll convinced with your own free time on purpose.1 -
Let me correct myself:
I don't think you've understood the post.
What you're suggesting would both heavily disfavor every killer except Nurse and Legion in a chase
I'm not sure where in the post you believed me making a statement about what b should be for vaulting speed. Quote me on it.
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I really like the idea of a vault speed increase but I think that using leader might make it op a little too much , instead what if we gave a extra percentage of vault speed to lithe that would be usable even when exhausted kind of like how balanced landing reduces stagger even when exhausted , so that way it will be more in line with a similar perk that would make sense to allow it0
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@OrionsFury4789 said:
I really like the idea of a vault speed increase but I think that using leader might make it op a little too much , instead what if we gave a extra percentage of vault speed to lithe that would be usable even when exhausted kind of like how balanced landing reduces stagger even when exhausted , so that way it will be more in line with a similar perk that would make sense to allow itIt cannot be OP (:
We can define in the variable b what is OP. Nothing can exceed b but every higher amount of x will get closer to b.0 -
On it s face you suggested leader effecting vaulting speeds for an implied 25% increase.
If you're going to attempt to argue that you didn't even suggest Leader raise vault speed by 25% and instead it would use your system for that base value from one perk I defer back to my assertion that this is a troll post.1 -
@Free_Hugs said:
On it s face you suggested leader effecting vaulting speeds for an implied 25% increase.If you're going to attempt to argue that you didn't even suggest Leader raise vault speed by 25% and instead it would use your system for that base value from one perk I defer back to my assertion that this is a troll post.
The title is completely correct too;
The perk will still state the same as it does now. It might even still give an exact Net 25%. It all comes down to what the Devs define b to be.
The same would be true for:
-Luck (Artificial Cut)
-Movement-speed increasers (Currently Hope and without such a limited also limited to)
-Healing-Speed (Artificial cut with We'll Make It or future perks similar to that)
-etc.
-vaulting speed. (They need to keep track of how many vaulting-speed increasing perks there are to avoid problems when not having any type of cap)As you can see in the 4 examples, currently beHaviour uses all types of custom (awkward) ways to deal with problematic values. Every-time they encounter a problematic value they customarily try to solve it and they are still prevented to make perks that use the same concept:
Multiple perks like hope would be problematic if they stacked, thus cannot be made or need another separate solution.The system that we propose here would eliminate all such future artificial solutions and would allow for FREE DESIGN when it comes to perks, only requiring them to define 1 number (b) in which they declare what is considered problematic once the code structure is in place.
That's the main thing to take away (:
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I do like how you're ignoring point #2 and how implemention of your idea would be horrible for essentially all involved.1
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I do like how you're ignoring point #2 and how implemention of your idea would be horrible for essentially all involved.
2: Creating a clarity issue where survivors trying to stack perks are dissatisfied when they do not function as they say they do.
Yes, thus we do some basic fact checking:
Let's look at all the outrage of all the people complaining about diminishing return systems in other games and we find almost nothing.
Still waiting for the anti-LeagueOfLegends-diminishing-movementspeed organisation to protest.People rather have a perk that gives them a balanced diminishing return than a perk not having any ability/interaction with something or being broken.
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@Free_Hugs said:
I do like how you're ignoring point #2 and how implemention of your idea would be horrible for essentially all involved.I mean, you can even look at the Luck mechanic. I barely see any complains about what you mentioned there either.
Someone learns about it: they see it's healthy for the game: everyone is happy. and in this case, everyone is even happier, since increasing a stat will always still increase it, even if it is by a little.0 -
You seem to be willfully ignorant in your responses.
#1 Increasing vault speeds to any notable degree will pressure killers to play Nurse / Legion, which is negative for both survivors and killers.
#2 Players would be confused and dissatisfied because their tooltips do not match the experiences they are having in game.
No one is arguing a diminishing return system is bad. It is being argued modifying vault speed or intruding muddy game mechanics will do more harm than good.
You are painfully deluded if you think observing the opinions of people who play a different genre of game are a good pool to determine how well such a system would impact specifically Dead By Daylight. The game we are actually discussing.
All in all, you need to realize one thing. You're not arguing for something "people" want. You're arguing for something you want.2 -
No one is arguing a diminishing return system is bad. It is being argued modifying vault speed or intruding muddy game mechanics will do more harm than good.
Ah, so you still believe I make an actual statement about what b should be. Quote me on it.
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Don't Spine Chill and Resilience affect Vault Speed? why would we need another perk that does the same thing.
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The funny thing is, you're trying to loop me on a discussion about vaulting.
Sorry, I have better things to do with my time then chase the guy with a flashlight.
My statements stand and have not been addressed. I suppose I'll let the lack of any and all positive response to your idea speak for itself.
Seeya around.1 -
@Detective_Jonathan said:
Don't Spine Chill and Resilience affect Vault Speed? why would we need another perk that does the same thing.The answer was already yes when Spine Chill, Resilience and the Old version of Leader were inside of the game.
The change to leader wasn't made because the Devs stopped believing they wanted as much vaulting speed affecting perks; they changed it because they believed the numbers to become problematic. (see linked video)
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My statements stand and have not been addressed.
It is being argued modifying vault speed or intruding muddy game mechanics will do more harm than good.Your statement was addressed and it was debunked. In order for the vaulting speed to be problematic you have to assume b, which is what you did.
Either you argue that vaulting speed should never be modified, meaning you argue against the existence of Resilience and Spine Chill too, which would be unrelated to this post, or you argue about b being problematic.
Since we didn't define b for any of the variables here, your claim is automatically wrong. If b would be 9, the our solution would even be less problematic than the current state.
TL;DR:
You're saying that a car goes too fast before we ever defined its speed, which is an impossible claim.0 -
Its better not to have all encompassing perks. By keeping perks limited to a few specifics it prevents creating stronger metas and requires loadouts to be changed for different challenges. If you want more vaulting speed then request some new ones, don't buff perks that already cover multiple things. Perk diversity is far better than creating perks nobody will want to drop.1
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Stop @ ing at me, please. I have no desire to extend a discussion with you.1
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@DemonDaddy said:
Its better not to have all encompassing perks. By keeping perks limited to a few specifics it prevents creating stronger metas and requires loadouts to be changed for different challenges. If you want more vaulting speed then request some new ones, don't buff perks that already cover multiple things. Perk diversity is far better than creating perks nobody will want to drop.I'm not sure why the vaulting-speed diversity is brought up here so much as it inherently has nothing to do with this post, because the old leader has it, and it wasn't removed for the reason you mention.
It was changed because the Devs believed the numbers to become problematic.
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Stop @ ing at me, please. I have no desire to extend a discussion with you.
A discussion with someone believing a car to be too fast without knowing its speed isn't useful anyways and isn't even related to the discussion.
It's more of a parenting session.
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You sound upset.
Would you like a hug?1 -
You sound upset.
I thought you were upset, lol.
I really just want you to understand that the method proposed in the OP cannot BE problematic inherently, as can a car not be too fast inherently.Which is why I point out that you first need to know about the Car's Speed (in this post; that is b, which the Devs get to define).
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I do not believe I ever stated your idea was mechanically problematic.
The assertions have always been that killers will feel pressured to play unfun killers and survivors will be upset their perks don't do what they say.
These are perceptive and clarity issues, not gameplay issues. You're focusing on saying you never started the speed limit of the car and I'm trying to tell you people can't see your sign before they get pulled over1 -
The assertions have always been that killers will feel pressured to play unfun killers and survivors will be upset their perks don't do what they say.
This was already addressed:
Yes, thus we do some basic fact checking:
Let's look at all the outrage of all the people complaining about diminishing return systems in other games and we find almost nothing.
Still waiting for the anti-LeagueOfLegends-diminishing-movementspeed organisation to protest.People rather have a perk that gives them a balanced diminishing return than a perk not having any ability/interaction with something or being broken.
I mean, you can even look at the Luck mechanic. I barely see any complains about what you mentioned there either.
Someone learns about it: they see it's healthy for the game: everyone is happy. and in this case, everyone is even happier, since increasing a stat will always still increase it, even if it is by a little.After I rebutted that, you called me wilfully ignorant... and the first thing you did was assume b again:
Increasing vault speeds to any notable degree will pressure killers to play Nurse / Legion, which is negative for both survivors and killers.
Which is again an impossible claim to make when not knowing b.
You said that cars were too fast inherently without knowing their speed.See; this statement is true:
Increasing vault speeds to any notable degree is problematic
which in no way is an argument against this post. It's literally the statement in this post: variables can problematic thus should be monitored under the solution we created in this OP.
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By this?
@AlwaysInAGoodShape said:
@Free_Hugs said:
I do like how you're ignoring point #2 and how implemention of your idea would be horrible for essentially all involved.I mean, you can even look at the Luck mechanic. I barely see any complains about what you mentioned there either.
Someone learns about it: they see it's healthy for the game: everyone is happy. and in this case, everyone is even happier, since increasing a stat will always still increase it, even if it is by a little.It is poor game design for someone to have to look up on a wiki how a game mechanic actually works.
Luck is poorly implemented, it just does next to nothing so it is fairly reasonable no one cares about it.
There are several thousand players of DBD a day, how many of them do you reasonably expect to have to google the dbd wiki just to understand base mechanics of the game?
Would you expect them to do this before they would attempt to use the perks in a match and are sub-sequentially dissatisfied?
Yo provided a rebuttable, sure, but that rebuttable was not actually a meaningful argument or refutation. I called you ignorant because you seemed to think it was. Given the complexity of your initial post, I do not believe you are stupid, such is my assertion you are willfully ignoring how weak your position is to maintain a positive mindset.
You keep trying to say that the speedlimit was never set.
I keep telling you no one cares, they can't see the sign and they will be upset when the diminishing returns police pull them over
or
Killers will see the speed limit go up and think to themselves "I need a faster car"
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No
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Yo provided a rebuttable, sure, but that rebuttable was not actually a meaningful argument or refutation.
You propose it to be a problem. I point out that such a system that artificially alters the end value has not been considered a problem more than it has been considered a good solution.
Luck is not an issue; generator efficiency being slowed with multiple players isn't an issue. In other games it isn't an issue; It is not an issue.
You keep trying to say that the speedlimit was never set.
I keep telling you no one cares
That's a lie:
What you're suggesting would both heavily disfavor every killer except Nurse and Legion in a chase, when M1 killers like trapper are all ready considered unplayable garbage at tier 1
You didn't say nobody cares (which isn't an argument): You said that it was set when it wasn't. Believing it to disfavor killers and this being related to my post. You cannot disfavor killers if b is lower than 9. It's all about b.
they can't see the sign and they will be upset when the diminishing returns police pull them over
Just as much as they are about luck, team-generator efficiency, movement-speed/life-steal in League of Legends, Attack value interactions in AoE2, etc. which is not an issue anywhere.
Killers will see the speed limit go up and think to themselves "I need a faster car"
Assuming b again.
Summary:
1 Hidden values are non-problematic anywhere in every game including the ones this game has.
2 Things cannot be UP/OP or problematic inherently as all that is defined is b.0 -
@ToxicFengM1n said:
NoElaborate?
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Okay, Leader with this type of power would be very strange okay?
Need more?
IDK I just want them to buff freddy already!1 -
@The_Crusader said:
Vaults are fine and a good vaulting loop can already hurt most standard killers.How is this related to the post?
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@AlwaysInAGoodShape said:
@The_Crusader said:
Vaults are fine and a good vaulting loop can already hurt most standard killers.How is this related to the post?
Leader + vault boost= This
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We are not making a statement about vaulting speed. We are making a statement about dealing with otherwise problematic values stacking and how to deal with that.
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@AlwaysInAGoodShape said:
@ToxicFengM1nWe are not making a statement about vaulting speed. We are making a statement about dealing with otherwise problematic values stacking and how to deal with that.
staring blankly into the air
Okay then...1 -
Why do we need perks to affect vaulting speed is what I'm asking. Vaulting speed is fine. It doesn't need to be affected by anything.
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@The_Crusader said:
Why do we need perks to affect vaulting speed is what I'm asking. Vaulting speed is fine. It doesn't need to be affected by anything.We don't. That is not the soul of this post. This post is about creating a system in which we have the freedom to even make perks like Leader (with ridiculous numbers for vaulting-speed as shown in the linked video) work.
We explain a method through which problematic variables can be handled for every type of value with minimal effort. (minimal effort being defining what we consider to be problematic)
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If literally no one telling your your idea is good and everyone in this thread telling you it is flawed, for two pages, is not enough to dissuade you I do not believe you are worth the breath.
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I think a fast vault lasts for 0.5 secs, that number is super strong. Slow vault is 0.9 for sure.
Even if we had a value considered as OP, which I assume It would be bigger than 9% and smaller than 40-something%, that value would break the game because this last percentage would make slow vaults last for as long as fast vaults without perks.
I could see this formula working with luck and some offerings but not for vault speed.
I seriously think that vault speed should not be touched at all, even if it's that 9% from resilience. I've been running some killers for the entire match, if anything they should be nerfed in the way of removing some infinite loops as those dont take skill at all.0 -
@Free_Hugs said:
If literally no one telling your your idea is good and everyone in this thread telling you it is flawed, for two pages, is not enough to dissuade you I do not believe you are worth the breath.Depends if they understood the post or not. In this case it's often the latter.
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@AlwaysInAGoodShape said:
@The_Crusader said:
Why do we need perks to affect vaulting speed is what I'm asking. Vaulting speed is fine. It doesn't need to be affected by anything.We don't. That is not the soul of this post. This post is about creating a system in which we have the freedom to even make perks like Leader (with ridiculous numbers for vaulting-speed as shown in the linked video) work.
We explain a method through which problematic variables can be handled for every type of value with minimal effort. (minimal effort being defining what we consider to be problematic)
Perhaps your thread title should reflect that, for clarity?
This may be why I'm stating to you clarity is important and muddy expression of ideas, much less game mechanics, causes distress.
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@tt_ivi_99 said:
I think a fast vault lasts for 0.5 secs, that number is super strong. Slow vault is 0.9 for sure.Even if we had a value considered as OP, which I assume It would be bigger than 9% and smaller than 40-something%, that value would break the game because this last percentage would make slow vaults last for as long as fast vaults without perks.
I could see this formula working with luck and some offerings but not for vault speed.
I seriously think that vault speed should not be touched at all, even if it's that 9% from resilience. I've been running some killers for the entire match, if anything they should be nerfed in the way of removing some infinite loops as those dont take skill at all.
Interesting remark: I think a fast vault lasts for 0.5 secs, that number is super strong. Slow vault is 0.9 for sure.
In such cases, they could simply use this method individually for each vaulting type, thus they get to declare what is problematic 3 times. (:
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@AlwaysInAGoodShape said:
@Free_Hugs said:
If literally no one telling your your idea is good and everyone in this thread telling you it is flawed, for two pages, is not enough to dissuade you I do not believe you are worth the breath.Depends if they understood the post or not. In this case it's often the latter.
Very well. Lets go off of this logic, then.
Who's fault is it no one understands the purpose of your thread?
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The title shows a ridiculous suggestion.
This ridiculous suggestion is brought up in the linked video where McClean says it's too much.
Followed by me saying: But what IF we want leader to affect vaulting speed? (Would this inherently be impossible?)
We follow up giving a diminishing return method that would make all such things work.I don't think it's that hard.
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tt_ivi_99 seems to not only understand it, but is able to bring up very interesting and relevant points as well.
It really depends how on thoroughly they read it. If someone skims through something, it's easy to make mistakes.
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That would work better, but I'd also add recovery time since It could be more broken than DS if a survivor could vault super fast every time he'd want.AlwaysInAGoodShape said:@tt_ivi_99 said:
I think a fast vault lasts for 0.5 secs, that number is super strong. Slow vault is 0.9 for sure.Even if we had a value considered as OP, which I assume It would be bigger than 9% and smaller than 40-something%, that value would break the game because this last percentage would make slow vaults last for as long as fast vaults without perks.
I could see this formula working with luck and some offerings but not for vault speed.
I seriously think that vault speed should not be touched at all, even if it's that 9% from resilience. I've been running some killers for the entire match, if anything they should be nerfed in the way of removing some infinite loops as those dont take skill at all.
Interesting remark: I think a fast vault lasts for 0.5 secs, that number is super strong. Slow vault is 0.9 for sure.
In such cases, they could simply use this method individually for each vaulting type, thus they get to declare what is problematic 3 times. (:
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This is discussion is physically painful to be a part of.
I Believe I will mirror ToxicFengM1n's sentiments on your ideas.
No.
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@Free_Hugs said:
This is discussion is physically painful to be a part of.I Believe I will mirror ToxicFengM1n's sentiments on your ideas.
No.
Joining the club of people still thinking it's about creating a perk with 10 quintillion% vaulting speed. I was already aware.
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