Suggestions I would make for revising anti-tunnel initiative
1) Keep the Elusive status effect for 15s
- Keep the no scratch marks.
- Keep the no pools of blood.
- Keep the no grunts of pain.
- Maybe add no loud noise notifications.
- Ditch the killer aura read.
This effect causes more problems for fast mobile killers returning to unhooks, especially when combined with Sprint Burst, gives options for perks like Lucky Star, allow's Babysitters speed boost to still be a powerful effect. These basekit effects make it a little easier for the unhooked player to slip away unnoticed, while the unhooker creates more scratch marks.
2) Make the "Unique Hook" feature a element for perk effects and bonuses (Hopeless?)
The unique hook mechanic as a concept is fine, make this an actual mechanic that can feed into the balance of perks for both sides.
Call it "hopeless" or something, to represent the Entity has less interest in this Survivor as their hopeless state makes them less appealing to them. Maybe have their face faded out on the HUD with red entity claws on them, and that Survivor remains hopeless until another Survivor is hooked.
3) Consider altering perks and effects that directly encourage tunneling from the Survivor side
Look at strong perks and effects that can be avoided/countered/are encouraged by tunneling, and rework them to benefit a none tunnel playstyle. I'm spitballing to get the idea across, but the perks I'm thinking of offhand: -
- Deliverance - You as killer lose pressure going for the unhooker instead of the unhooked with current Deliverance. Perhaps consider switching this perk to use the above hopeless mechanic, so: When you or a Survivor you unhook becomes hopeless, if the hopeless Survivor is hooked again they make no struggle checks in sacrificing stage, and can attempt to unhook themselves with 100% chance to succeed.
- Deep Wound and Basekit Borrowed Time - Basekit Borrowed Time can be subverted by racing back hitting immediately off hook, which then makes a follow up easier, especially for fast highly lethal killers. Changing the basekit BT to grant a Mettle of Man block instead of just basic Endurance would allow other perks (Dead Hard, OTR, lockers plus Lucky Star, Iron Will, Quick and Quiet, etc, Clean Break, old Syringes?), and such, to continue to work because the Survivor is not stuck needing to mend.
- Dead Hard - I actually think Dead Hard is actually fine as it is because there is plenty of counter play to bait it out and it has plenty of restrictions... However from a tunnel perspective, if you don't want to deal with Dead Hard, hitting a Survivor as they come off hook to put them in Deep Wound, then tunnelling them normally works well. Not doing so makes it so a timely Dead Hard can really cost you later on if you forget to check for it... so yo avoid it, tunneling while its freshnin your mknd is more reliable. I don't think Dead Hard needs nerfing because baiting it out is a high level skill... but tying Dead Hard to the above "hopeless" mechanic could also afford it some buffs... e.g it remains permanently active while hopeless, has a 10s exhaustion cooldown when used, etc.
- Off the Record - Off the Record I also think is fine, but it has a similar problem to Dead Hard above where if you want to bypass it, you hit off hook and tunnel. The basekit BT change resolves this problem, but OTR can now also dafely ber used to body block a non tunneling killer for a teammate, similar to Decisive, but with less counterability... especially with Duty of Care. Not got a easy fix to this one... protection hits are tricky to account for since they can be triggered by savvy killers... but something to think about.
4) Give Killers perks with strong effects that disable if a Survivor dies, or use the above "hopeless" mechanic.
Back when I started Hex: Ruin had it's regression nerf and disabled if a Survivor died. In conjunction with the Hopeless mechanic, use this to give stronger, but more conditional perks that directly benefit the killers pressure for not tunneling, such as:
- Buff Scourge Hook: Pain Resonance to 25/30% gen regression but disables when a Survivor dies.
- Buff Hex: Ruin to greater regression speeds of old, but disables when a Survivor dies.
- Change Pop Goes The Weasel to 15% base but have 3% additional bonus regression for every hook, resetting back to 0 bonus when hooking a Hopeless Survivor.
- Buff Leverage to have an additional effect where the Hopeless Survivor suffers a 15% Conspicuous Action penalty until they are no longer "Hopeless".
- Change Alien Instinct to reveal the auras and apply Oblivious to all none Hopeless Survivors when a Survivor is hooked.
You can go on forever like this, but you get the idea.
I think this "Hopeless" mechanic offers an additonal perk balancing mechanism, kind of like a reverse Obsession, allowing perks to be stronger for killer and Survivor in pursuit of a reduced tunnel goal.
Comments
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The problem is the gen speed. Literally every game popping 3 gens in few minutes. And with all pallets being there, abandoning strong area chases, you can't truly compete out of the unholy 4 killers up there. Not against lvl of survivors i play against.
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Perfectly fair, though I don't think there is any one magic bullet to address tunneling, it's got to be a lot of design changes together.
For example, I've often batted around an idea in my mind of Survivors have to run to different "connection points" for the gens that are shown via auras at the start to link the gens to the gate.
Only a little 5 second task that the killer cants really defend that they have to run to and do first before they can hop on gens, could even let linking them show the gen that you linked for 12 seconds to help newer players find a gen to work on at the beginning.
The point I'm making with this suggestion is, the core design of perks should encourage killers not to tunnel, to reward them for not doing so, and giving us an additonal balance mechanism to have stronger perks that encourage a less tunnel oriented playstyle.
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Honestly Elusive was good idea, I'm sad it won't hit live. Same with unic hook bonuses idea. Because you won't eliminate tunneling from the game without breaking it core at some point anyway, but I don't see a reason why we can't give killers rewards for unic hooking, since it kinda solve 2 big points:
– Make survivors happier by giving the other side initiative not to tunnel
– Make spreading hook less of a intentional throwing the game
But biggest change is MMR change and I can't describe how happy am I about it. I've said it million times – MMR is where MAJORITY of game problems begin. "Oh no, hardcore tunneling Blight tunnels me out at 5 gens", "Oh no I got 0 hooks against this swf", "Oh no Nurse slugged us at 4 gens" – it's all nothing but MMR problems, where one side going against other side which has completely different skill level.
It's such a smart move and honestly have a faith at BHVR first time in long months. Biggest, most needed step in a right direction.1 -
I still don't understand why the developers keep postponing the Elusive status effect because out of every basekit buff, this one is fine and I've never saw anyone complaining about it. I don't see a problem of 20 seconds Elusive status effect after the unhook.
Instead of nerfing already mediocre perks, the devs should buff perks that encourage the killer to hook multiple survivors. Ravenous or None Are Free are good examples of perks that encourage hooking but also different survivor, however, they are just weak because the reward is too low for such a big effort. I also think no killer perk needs a nerf right now. They also got crippled, which resulted in a low variety for killers. For example, no killer perk can be compared to SB, Lithe, or Vigil, which are all insanity strong but free perks with limited to no counterplay while the "strongest" killer perks requires effort.
We need to get rid of perks that punish the killer for hooking which means a nerf to Deliverance, Dead Hard, Resurgence, Wicked, or Shoulder the Burden. There should be no perk that punishes the killer for hooking or even encourage them to slug/tunnel. However, we can rework these perks in ones that punish the killer if they decides to tunnel like Deliverance only triggers when you get hooked two times in a row. In the same way, if we wanna encourage the killer to spread hooks, toolboxes need a nerf as well as the hook timer.
No, killers should get basekit rewards for hooking different Survivors. Making the whole "MR Nice Guy" depending on perks is just wrong. Give Killers basekit rewards that don't trigger when they tunnel or disable once one survivor is dead.
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Whole heartedly agree gents, I believe given how the tunneling changes have been walked back on twice, its clear that trying to shunt a playstyle with heavy handed bonuses that just make tunneling impossible for majority of the roster is not gonna work.
The fact they are looking at MMR is very positive change. Currently a Survivor who dies when practically winning the game for their team gets dropped in MMR, but the Survivor who basically just sat on gens, or even worse... ratted the whole time goes up in MMR. Survivor MMR needs to be tied, at least partially, to the result of the trial overall. It's tricky cause you can get carried hard by other players, but careful use of emblem system holds promise.
Tunneling is gonna come up again and again though, and the fact we're gonna have to face is, if you don't want people to tunnel, then both sides need to have their ability to rush down the game cramped significantly.
A killer can only chase 1 survivor at a time, and when spreading hooks needs an average of at least 8 hooks a game to realistically 2k. So if you want 30, 40, 50, 60 second+ chases to be a part of the game, this can't be a chase time that leads to 2 or 3 gens popping. It needs to be worth the killers time not to tunnel, which means effectively slowing the game down.
On the flip side, Survivors need meaningful counterplay against killers if killers do tunnel, the killer rushing down a player at the moment is met with Survivors rushing down generators as fast as possible in the hope they can do it before the tunneled Survivor dies.
There is no 1 change that's gonna address/bandaid fix tunneling, numerous elements of the games design have to changed to ease more towards this goal... My hope with this "Unique Hook"/"Hopeless" mechanic is it can become an additional tool in that series of changes.
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Nope we get nothing. In fact survivors are being debuffed and pallet density is being reversed while killers stay super buffed and oppressive. Get discord everyone. Gotta join a swf to have any chance to escape.
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Removing tunneling is impossible. Tunneling will always be part of the game. So, we should get rid of the idea that we can remove tunneling and encourage the players to play nice 12 hook games because this is not something we can achieve tomorrow, especially when we look what the developers wanted to introduce. The only aspect that should be removed is hard tunnling, which means hooking the same survivor three times in a row. This can punished with basekit features (faster gens, reducing the total gen progress), but before we do this, we need to make sure spreading hooks is fair and this is only possible when give killers basekit rewards and remove survivor aspects that punish spreading hooks. In addition, if the game gets balanced around hooking again, camping and slugging will be reduced automatically - but again - we can not and should not remove them from the game.
The only meaningful thing survivors need is a QOL change for SoloQ like basekit Kindred without killer aura, in an advance form that also shows teammate aura when someone is slugged for a little time or basekit bond when a survivor is dead on hook. Basically, SoloQ gets a buff that puts them closer to SWF. These features can already reduce tunnelling, slugging, and camping because now survivor have a similar awareness like their teammates and know what each one is doing. Otherwise, survivors have a lot of stuff to counter tunnel with DS, OTR, Babysitter, Borrowed Time, Second Wind, or Blood Rush.
In the end, this game should be still skill based and not get handhold by different features that immediately trigger and give insane buffs. We had this two times with 30 seconds of Endurance, it is not helpful and will only get abused. We had basekit-like UB which is also removes skill from the game that. It is similar to 2v8, where one side gets punished for doing good while the other side gets help when they lack the skill to keep up. Sure, the game has other weaknesses but they get covered by features like these. This is also why the devs bandaid fix is just bad because it will cover weaknesses of players or the game while reducing skill.
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Reasons why this antitunnel change isn't truly changing anything…
→ Killer can still hit you off hook, removing endurance instantly
→ Killer can still bodyblock stairs in basement to wait out your endurance
What they could do?
→ Remove collisions while having endurance and keep it up to 15s
→ When survivor is one hook from death and killer has 3 or less hooks, random survivor with least hooks will recieve hook state instead (disabled when two or less gens are left)
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I think people who do gens must be encouraged as well. Otherwise everyone will try to be chased and ignore gens. The fairest thing is to introduce team condition, and give MMR gain for everyone if three escapes, only doubling points for the most engaged in chase surv. In Identity V players call it kite.
MMR must start treating survivors as team.
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but the Survivor who basically just sat on gens goes up in MMR.
And nothing wrong with it. Doing gens is survivors' goal, so why MMR should ignore it? Probably in every 5th game just me doing gens results into 2-3 escapes.
DBD mobile had post-match stats page and it was great example of based on what MMR should work.
Your gens progress, your chase time, your rescues/heals/(protection hits also can be here) are perfect values to judge how useful you were for your team and how much you did for win.
I still think my suggestion about point system is fire and we slowly go to it anyway (afk crows are very close to it), and we will come to it anyway, just in few years and through million wrong decisions.1 -
And nothing wrong with it. Doing gens is survivors' goal, so why MMR should ignore it?
Ah that's not what I meant, I was speaking specifically in the context of Survivors raising MMR based purely off rushing gens with BNPs, Commodius Toolboxes and perks like Built to Last, which is itself an issue that needs to be contained.
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I guess this is rather a problem of commodius toolboxes and their addons - they need a nerf.
This is also an issue this game has to some degree: you can either be very skillful or just get carried by strong stuff and in the end, these both players are in the same mmr bracket. I can say, it is so insane how some players get carried by perks while other ones have "nothing special" but are just good players. This is an issue the developers also need to solve in some way (e.g. reducing the efficiency of strong perks or tools that can make a big difference or not match and effort-reward-criteria).
This goes btw for both roles, some killers addons have similar issues like fat toolboxes or "carring survivor perks"
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*Blight with compound and shredded notes with blood favour are surprised when got compared to Meg with commodious toolbox, BNP and hyperfocus*
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The killer player still needs some skill to get the down, hook, and pressure while sitting on a gen and doing a gen with a fat toolbox requires not so much.
I also said that killers have a similar problem when it comes to effort-reward.
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Considering average level of solo q — no. It’s hard only if people trying, which is a rarity in this game if you aren’t playing custom.
I played 2vs8 and it showed me some killers there. If such guys also somehow having higher than 50% KR… I’m not gonna be surprised.
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If survivors don't try to play the game then that is their fault and the reason why a match against Blight feels like he is the easiest killer in the entire game. Then we can already call Trapper S tier when we assume people don't try their bare minimum. Not saying Blight is fine but the comparison feels so off.
It's also not true that people don't try. I play both sides (killer and SoloQ) and see people trying to play the game. Sure, also people who don't try but that's a player issue and has nothing to do with the game.
2v8 is a complete different gamemode. You cannot compare 2v8 with 1v4 because there are a too many differences from basekit unbalanced aspects to unbalanced player issues. I also played 2v8 and it shocked me how many people ran randomly in Trapper's trap when his main counterplay is look at the ground (you don't even the other counterplay of avoid basement). It also shocked me how easy people give Oni the first hit in two seconds when the maps are bigger than Europe and have more wood than the rain forest.
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I get it’s survivor issue, but honestly, do we really believe average level of player here is decent enough to call matches difficult or more effort consuming?
It doesn’t cancel the fact that playing against average players making yourself pretty average. No role is “harder”. Killer might feel more stressful, due to inability to share responsibility, but no reason to call “it requires more to do x thing” if you facing average player.
2vs8 just showed me how some killer players do without perks. Simply badly. Because there are no good incentives for playing killer besides kfw. Your only advantage is zero SBMM and skill adaptability that can slow down gen for gifting you comeback.Many killer players choosing as same simple path as survivors. I’m not talking about playstyles even. You can gen rush without perks and tunnel without something helping you for it. I mean the reliance on tools for killers aren’t less significant than for survivors. And people choose the most simple one, that doesn’t work only against decent opponents.
Blight with blood favor is as cheap as surv with sprint burst and vigil. Survivor meta just more busted because they don’t have abilities and BHVR like second chances.
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I am okay with the devs taking time to reconsider anti-tunelling and anti-slugging measures, if they feel like they need to be addressed more carefully. However, they have been doing stuff that worsens tunneling and slugging while abandoning the proposed changes. I really don't get it.
In the previous patch, they abandoned anti tunneling/slugging measures, but nerfed Off the Record and Tenacity, which worsened these problems. In this patch they are again abandoning the measures, AND nerfing syringe and styptic, which could normally help against tunneling/slugging, but now are gonna potentially worsen these problems. Both patches are doing the exact opposite of what they were supposed to do. I don't get the reasoning behind this.
(aside from anti-camping, that seems to be the only step in right direction in theme of the proposed changes)
So, if you need to temporarily abandon these major changes, okay, but why then also introduce nerfs to survivors that worsen the problems?
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I agree that Elusive was the ideal change against tunneling, it harmed no one. I would go a step further and remove the unhook notification. Not like the initial version, that crap should not come back.
As for the reward-punishment economy for killers, I think a basekit Pop like the first iteration had, and the return of the increased permanent repair speed for survivors, but only if a survivor dies at 4 hooks or less. This makes it so even alternating between 2 targets (technically not tunneling) is not punished.
Perk wise, idk. I agree with @HolyDarky that perks like Ravenous and None Are Free should be buffed, and agree that powerful perks should be tempered with anti-tunnel functions instead of repeated nerfs.
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Would something like this help with toning down toolboxes?
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