https://dbd.game/4rHHkF5
Trickster Update Feedback
Comments
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at best, it put him moving 1% faster than a 4.6m/s killer. For a killer whos greatest weakness is holding w at that. MFT was problematic not specifically because the hast had no duration, but because it had no duration and unfair numbers. While also having varying effects across the roster, which was a whole other problem…
Post edited by Balrog on1 -
I dont mind the fewer blades, but they should definitely make him 115% again. W key counters him so hard I've started running trail of torment with fearmonger just to get the drop on people.
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I must be coming across different levels of Trickster that I've experienced today. I've seen Trickster rip through endurance, downing with ease with Main Event in my own games today.
Easily downing people with their blades due to the lower hit threshold.
So, I don't know if my Tricksters I face are just highly, highly skilled Tricksters or if the forums are genuinely suffering as this new Trickster is out. I won't comment on his/her strength because I am aware of how it takes time to get used to a new version of what the killer was prior, but the idea that Trickster is completely helpless due to a speed nerf is where I get disconnected from what the forums is describing versus my own personal gameplay.
I literally watched today, not even an hour ago - a Trickster from my own game ripping through the endurance of a survivor, downing them, downing the person who unhooked them, and downing the person who helped unhook in basement. Now, this was quick succession and you could argue, sure - it was Coldwind but I do not adhere to this whole notion that Trickster is horrible. Yes, I've played old Trickster and this new Trickster from my experiences of seeing him (I was actually genuinely surprised that I did not see a single Kaneki - I don't know if that's a cause-effect here, I'm just pointing that out).
So, yes I learned to counter this specific spam heavy - I hit you with less blades. I will hold chase moving forward, I will punish you by doing generators, and I will get out of the game otherwise I am getting pelted at with less knives and a long main event that occurs.
But I digress, I am aware that some people might struggle with Trickster but I hardly if ever came across some noobie Trickster and probably can count it on one hand - but that is my two cents regarding the killer.
I just become very gen efficient just so I can get out of the trial, so that I'm not constantly pelted and downed easily. Don't even get me started on the new map full of dreaded 50/50s.
I love the aesthetic, I love the fact that Behavior put a lot of effort into it (even I still see the same copy/paste stuff, I am so surprised we do not have textured fruit?) - minor gripe, but why does the fruit look all congealed and alien like? But that is my opinion on the chapter.
My favorite perk from the chapter was of course Flow State because I like to play macro heavy, it's a macro perk - didn't really care for Five Moves Ahead but it doesn't fit my playstyle it is whatever to me.
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I done detailed posts in the past but i dont have the energy to do those post due to my feelings like feedback arent heard so i would do a simple post to cover why trickster should be 4.5 and not 4.4 as i really want this feedback to be heard:
The 4 key reasons on why trickster should be reverted back to 4.5 m/s
- has increase map pressure which is non existentent currently
- reduce the damage holding shift W and pre running does to trickster (side note even if you try to catch them off the lullaby goes nope to that)
- reduce the punishment of using trickster power ie throwing mode speed (why does he get punished for using his power btw? it doesnt make sense since its not a instant damage ability like the huntress)
- in areas where his power is not useful he can play around it much better (tall walls, jungle gyms etc)
i also want to put out the notion that if you bump trickster to 4.5 you need to nerf the knives hit back to 8 i want to say no you dont need to do that, you can keep it 6 and i honestly believe it wont make him op or oppressive as if you bump it back to 8 then you have the same issue that you had before chapter and current he just to slow to down survivors
i would suggest to keep it at 6 when his movement speed is bump back to original and see how it goes if im wrong and its to much of a issue then a compromise bump it to 7 but that a seprate discussion but something i want to mention since it connects to base speed.
trickster is meant to be a fast pace range killer and currently he to slow and the holding shift W plus pre running just leads to unintresting gameplay and makes a weak killer even weaker. i want this killer to be viable for all players across all levels of play and currently he failing
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I have genuinely not had a worse time playing killer in my life.
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I wanna love trickster and I really wanna play him more. But in his current state it took a total of 2 matches for me to instantly give up because it's genuinely so hard to play him. I am not saying he is horrible, he just has a huge skill ceiling, but there is a difference between a killer with a big skill ceiling and then just feeling awful to learn.
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Same
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finding survivors in lockers (not interrupting them entering/exiting, but when finding them by searching the locker) doesnt give any style points or refresh the combo duration, which i feel it should. also maybe pausing style rank decay for a second per knife hit, so that you dont down-rank in the middle of hitting someone with knives around long loops you can only get one or two knife hits in.
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This rework was a failure for me.
I played a fair amount of him when he first released due to being a K-Pop fan and loving his whole aesthetic, but I quickly fell out of love with him due to his relatively low power level at everything except maybe camping a hook or basement. I had high hopes given how long this rework was in the works, but I'm sad to say, that I won't be picking him back up again after finishing his Chapter Quests.
His ranged power still feels considerably weaker than every other ranged Killer, with him only being able to deal fractions of a health state per throwable. Being relegated to 4.4 m/s doesn't feel justified to me in most situations. Maybe it's necessary for balance — I'm not an exceptional Trickster player so I don't know the ins and outs — but he just feels incredibly slow and like I spend most of the match playing catch up instead of actually chasing.
The style system is flashy, the UI is nice, the voice lines and animations are all really neat, but every match I play him I find myself wishing I'd picked any other Killer.
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I personally believe that trickster should be 4.6 for a myriad of reasons.
Firstly the pros and cons from what I have observed.
Pros:
The combo system is an amazing addition as it rewards accurate shots
The Knives are very small so you can make some rather cheeky shots through small spaces(which your combo system rewards and is a fantastic addition)
The knives are also fast and travel around 55 m/s I believe.
Only 6 knives to injure is very deadly and feels very nice as the killer, and many felt that 8 knives was too many and took too long to injure(I agree with that as well).
Cons:
The time to pull out and put away knives might not seem to bad but as time goes on it does add up, and killer role is essential a time management game. His knifes are in a similar situation as missing knives really adds up and is very punishing for him.
His power that needs to land multiple times to injure, he slows down when he pulls out his knives, and slows down even more the more knives he throws.
His projectiles barely have any weight and travel almost perfectly horizontal which has several downsides. Like not being able to hit people over long range effectively, he can't huntress yeet a few knives across the entire map, and many strangely large hitboxes in the game that can make it as if a throw never happened.
I have mixed opinions on the 44 meter lullaby especially for the trickster. like I said above his shots are really limited in being only horizontal, and in addition to being slower then normal, the lullaby is essentially a big sign for survivors to start pre running which is really punishing for him.
Survivors are also far from defenseless walls, trash placed around the map, endurance, exhaustion perks, genrushing, body blocking, and pre running all counter his power.
Trickster in the hands of a good player who has invested a lot of time into learning his kit can absolutely shred survivors and snowball games if survivors mess up and group together. However in his current state only said good players can play him effectively. He is way harder in many aspects that discourages people other than the trickster masters from playing him.
People may argue trickster with 4.6 is too strong, in response I would like to introduce them to a little killer named the blight a 4.6 killer with a dash ability that can help him travel across great distances very quickly, and those pesky survivor speed perks and endurance mean nothing to him. Comparing these two is like comparing the lethality of a coughing baby to a hydrogen bomb. Even comparing the trickster to other ranged killers shows how lacking he is;
The Huntress vs Trickster: The lethal range of a huntress is defined by the huntress player, as they can launch projectiles across the entire map and even down you from across the map if they are skilled enough.
The Deathslinger vs Trickster: Their projectiles are very similar in terms of size and they can both shoot through small gaps. however deathslinger has a few advantages, like being able to injure people MUCH more easily as he only needs to land one shot compared to tricksters 6 to take a health state from healthy and he doesn't suffer from the malady that is a 44 meter lullaby(which allows him to both approach survivors more easily without them being alerted to his presence earlier and he can actually utilize undetectable effectively unlike a certain KPOP serial killer).
The First vs Trickster: The First's power goes through walls and he has an amazing traversal ability and trickster has none of the above.
The Artist vs Trickster: Her power is both fast, can go through walls, and can even damage if the survivor is close enough and there is nothing in the way of the bird. again trickster has none of that. She is also 4.6 speed.
The Plague vs Trickster: The plague has an easier time hitting people and there are several techs you can do with her to arc shots and manipulate the projectile speed. Trickster doesn't have that. Also moves at 4.6.
The Animatronic vs Trickster: He has both a traversal power, a stealth power, and a ranged power all in one kit. Trickster can't stealth, and he can't travel across the map efficiently either especially now.
Oh yes I nearly forgot trickster has to reload, he has to reload a lot with this rework, the only other killer that has to reload from lockers is the huntress I think all other ranged killers have powers that recharge over time or like the deathsligner who can reload whenever he wants.
Trickster has numerous aspects of his kit that hinder his speed and make him feel surprisingly clunky at the same time. When this is combined with the 4.4 movement speed he feels both supremely slow, bad, and gets completely steamrolled by any slightly competent survivor who can pre run and god forbid you meet a group of people on comms. I will say that Trickster very much embodies the phrase "give him an inch, and he will take a mile" as against people who keep making mistakes he will dominate and streamroll them, but against actually capable survivors you are surprisingly weak and have to fight so, so much harder then other ranged killers to injure people. 4.6 actually allows you to compete with good survivors and would make all the clunky slowdown at least tolerable and he could actually pressure the map effectively.
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Pretty much the same reasons any 4.4 killer has for struggling. We still are in a pre-run exhaustion meta. With stuff like sprint burst and lithe to get distance ahead of time. Then maps have more shrubbery and pallets that people can just run around to make sure trickster cant hit them or spends so much time catching up. While everyone else cranks gens. The trickster drops they have a lullaby and a tr to warn the next survivor to prerun. Rinse and repeat. You can go to maps like grim,ormand,or badham and constantly run circles around the buildings and he wont get any pressure on you being 4.4 not even counting the knife slowdown. And either the options are nerf exhaustion perks (which would fix the problem for all cases) adjust maps to not encourage this style. Or just buff trickster. Which we know which is the easier decision to make and take less resources.
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No one is going to play this killer after a few weeks. He needs 4.6 m/s base and more knives.
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I get the point you are making here however it does have 1 major issue with it. The point you are making isn't more so a point but a personal preference of yours.
Let me explain. So you don't want 4.6 trickster because you really hate the 8 knife health state. While I on the other hand really hate the survivors holding W and pre running with sprint burst and having to play catch up/walking simulator because trickster is so slow at 4.4m/s.
So then the issue becomes which one do people hate more?
Walking Hold W Simulator 4.4 6 knife health state trickster or
Fast 4.6 8 Knife Health state trickster who takes slightly more knives and can feel like tickling the survivors.
They both sound like they have their downsides yes but they are at the end of the day both preferences and I think the only way to make a decision on something like this is to gather a Poll or Community Vote on what they prefer more since it isn't much so balance wise, it's just an argument on what people prefer.
I personally think because of trickster's new movement speed being really slowed down while throwing multiple knives they could even justify 4.6m/s 6 knife health states given he gets slowed down so much while throwing or perhaps a slower throw rate.
Or the big new thing to try would be the first ever 4.5m/s 112.5% move speed killer which has never been explored before and I think Trickster would be the perfect character for. Deathslinger could also be a contender for this.
For far to long has the move speed of killers been limited to the ONLY 4.4 or 4.6 when there are no reasons it needs to only be those two speeds, there are many other options in between a whole 5% move speed1 -
The only reason Huntress works as a 4.4 is because she's easier to play and her lethality is way better then tricksters.
Her hatchets hitbox is 2x the size of the hatchet model which is why they call her hatchets dump truck hatchets. Remember when they actually refined huntresses hatchet hitbox and everyone lost there minds until it got reverted? I do.
You reload way less often with her then trickster, she's actually playable on controller unlike trickster, no worries about decay etc I can go on and on
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Wesker instant flicks, instahugs, and bounding off cliffs is bugged. He bounds twice from just holding the left mouse activation button and there's a strange delay between bounds that prevents insta hugs from being performed consistently.
Not being able to bound off elevation feels unnatural and weird, not to mention removes lots of fun from playing him.-1 -
not a trickster main, but have played the character enough thru the years, update is really nice visually, and mina is everything, you should definitely make it a priority to launch a system for legendary characters (Claire, Chris, Tiffany, etc all staring at you) to get additional outfits, but cmon, 18-20$ is very expensive, its fine for the 1st purchase, i guess, but no one will buy every additional skin at that price range,
gameplay feedback:
- i could not tell half of the time if i had main event available, give us a sound queue, make the main even prompt flash, or something, but not too much
- the style progression is cool, but please for the love of the entity, whyyyy does blight (115%) just gets to stomp around like a giant while the 110% killers have to struggle so much just trying not to ge smushed under his big feet? (chucky was nerfed (s&d should be 8.5 m/s at least), hag is hag, spirit is forced to run green flute), etc, trickster has to fight so hard to level up endlessly throughout the trial, and the effects of s tier, i could not tell, just make it so you level up 1 time to s, then just (if you must make it decay) make it so it only goes down to b (whispers* just as low as any killer tier should be), all survivors need to do is avoid you and you're back at e, 110% killers should have strong chases because they need to drag their tiny little feet across the map after each chase, unlike mr Caesar (blight) who just ping pongs for 3 seconds and is already chasing you
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How is Blight 115% fine but Trickster 115% too much? There's no consistency in balancing here.
Trickster could be made 115%, have his knives increased back, with no other nerfs, and he still would only be B tier at best. Why are we hindering something so weak?
His primary counter play is just getting held w all game long. This is zero skill and zero interaction game play that shouldn't be encouraged. The amount of time you lose just catching up to even start the chase is absurd. We're talking about ridiculously long downing times. 110% is reserved for killers with powers that also give mobility or fast down times to compensate, Trickster has neither.
This killer needs to be accessible to more players than just the handful of die hard mains.
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I think with the removal of the 4.6 m/s its pretty clear this update is for Trickster veterans, not new players.
its not easier to get into trickster one bit, because you loose so much from every misfire'ed knife.3 -
In this game, even if a dash killer sticks to a survivor's back and misses an attack, they are allowed to continue using M1 while auto-reloading at 4.6.
If the deceleration is this significant when using power, then 4.6 is fine.
The only time 4.6 m/s becomes a problem is when you can continuously place powers that allow you to rapidly approach survivors, such as stealth, dash, or teleport, or terrain-ignoring attacks like First.For better balance, use 4.6 m/s. If you want to give the Trickster a unique personality, increase their movement speed through rank-ups. If you're experimenting for the future of the game, use 4.5 m/s.
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I'd really love a legendary/visceral outfit system for these characters you put a lot of effort into adding to DBD, it'd be nice to get more outfits down the line for the characters, especially since they cost much more than the base one.
Please consider this, you get way more features for base characters (More badges, bloody prestige, perks, ability to change outfits), legendaries for their price should have an outfit system too.
edit: sorry I thought this was a mina feedback thread coz I clicked on a "Mina feedback thread" that got merged with this one lol oops0 -
I cleared up my head and thought a little about it throughout the day and now I think I know exactly what went wrong with trickster, so I hope this is helpful for the devs. I may be wrong but hear me out on this.
I think what happened with trickster is that they basically bumped the skill floor (I believe you call it. Sorry if im using that word wrong) really high. A trickster main/someone who plays enough trickster to be above the NEW skill floor this will feel like a buff. This is because they know what blades will hit and the geometry and when to pull the blades up or put them down, when to reload, so on and so fourth.
I'll be honest, I really like this approach. Part of me thinks that the intentions were actually really good this time; make trickster express more skill and be harder to learn, but once you learn him you can be really good. Also pushing him to use his ability more by making M1's not as affective.
However, here is where it went wrong in my opinion. They made the "skill floor" WAAAYY too high, making it miserable to play for most players as long as they are below that skill floor, making it harder to actually learn the character, and just making people not wanna play him due to how difficult he actually is now. You have to rely on blades way more as a newer trickster player, and at this point you don't really know how the blades work, when to pull them up or put them down, what blades will actually hit survivors, so on and so fourth. So what happens is that you can't really get value out of anything anymore and you are punished way too hard for not being good at him. Which as I said pushes people away from playing the character to begin with.
This is not to say there aren't any actual issues with him now. There still is issues (Like treating him like huntress even though he isn't even remotely like huntress at all) with his base kit.0 -
BHVR. Please don't give into the pressure of making trickster easier if that means reducing his skill ceiling/potential.
People are asking for a version of trickster that we already had for the past 2 years and it was #########. The issues people are having are things they need to learn to play around. Because 4.6m/s never solved these issues it just made him mid overall. He's not supposed to chase the first survivor he sees. If laceration is decaying, the chase should be dropped.
Maybe he deserves to be stronger but not in the ways people are suggesting.
Trickster has never been a killer that anyone can pick up and play and get great results. Hell even if you are good with him his results can feel below average for the effort you put him. But he's incredibly fun and interesting in this state regardless and this needs to be maintained.
I'll be damned if i see patch notes within the next 2 weeks that partially revert him to his old state. He has not even been out for 3 days yet. I don't want this game to be dictated by the loudest voices. DBD is a game with depth that doesn't deserve to be balanced around first impressions.0 -
Does the fun start once you actually get in range and theres not a bunch of shrubbery, a pallet chain, Or the survivor doesnt have a exhaustion perk to leave you in the dust unless you wanna follow them for another 30+ seconds and rinse repeat? For instance tricksters own map in every way?
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This implies you are playing him to backrev survivors which isn't how he's designed to be. You're supposed to take advantage of brief, frequent windows of LOS to land individual knives. It's why pulling up and down a blade is insanely fast compared to other ranged killers.
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Depends on the map. And stuff like sprint burst still gives a lot of distance to the survivor before trickster gets close at all. Which is one of the issues for 4.4 compared to 4.6. Which if they also put themselves behind cover and hold w from there on with putting stuff in the way you take a very long time to catch up or do anything.
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Sprint burst is too strong against 4.6m/s killers anyway. It does not make it viable to chase them.
And yes his power is very map dependant but making him 4.6m/s does not change that, it just makes it so you can abandon your power to m1 instead. Which is incredibly boring and not viable against experienced survivors. Even if it gives him some reliability and consistency, it's not fun. This basic type of gameplay belongs to basic killers like wraith, myers, legion etc0 -
I wanted to pop back in to this thread to thank you all for the great back-and-forth. There's a lot of feedback here that we're working through to bring to the team. It's no secret that The Trickster has a high skill floor that relies quite heavily on the risk-reward per knife, and that their perceived strength can vary map-to-map. These are things we're following both through feedback and game data, and will continue following over time, understanding the learning curve.
All that to say, the shift to 4.4 m/s was done to focus on The Trickster's identity as a projectile Killer, prioritizing skillful knife throwing over M1 attacks in-chase. I hear the frustration about this that some folks are sharing, as well as the comments from folks who feel it feels good, and want to assure you we'll continue to watch how these impressions evolve.
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