A potential way to reduce incentive to tunnel
A major reason that killers tunnel is often because they believe they are forced to, in order to win - which is true in some cases (depending on the game state).
What I am proposing may sound counter-intuitive, but I believe in the long term would actually result in a decrease in tunneling strategies used by killers.
Buff killers outright
I said it- hear me out. As stated before- a MAJOR reason most killers tunnel is b/c they believe they are at high risk of losing if they do not tunnel.
*IF killers were made stronger - we would likely see an immediate uptick in the amount of current tunneling but I predict this would eventually offset as many killer mains realize they do not need to do so in order to win - and that in fact it would be more productive to focus on the survivor team as a whole, instead of singling out any given survivor. Now OFC this could obviously backfire - but this is just a rough idea.
Comments
-
No. We have seen the result of this, which isn't less tunnelling at all.
Tunnelling is too efficient, that is why killers tunnel. We need to make tunneling not efficient, and then buff killers to achieve the desired escape/kill rate.
For example, if you made survivors gain a 30 second speed boost to 6/ms and the killer became stunned for 10 seconds if they hit someone just off the hook. Killers would never tunnel. SO we can fix it immediately, it would just be terrible for the fun of the game. Survivors would feel to safe, and killers would feel to impotent. But it does demonstrate that tunnelling could be fixed, the other side of the equation is how do killers still find success at the same rates (weak and strong killers alike)
11 -
Outright buffing killers doesn't change that tunnelling is still stronger. There needs to be incentives that make unique hooks while all survivors are alive stronger than not tunnelling.
As long as removing one survivor from the game gives a 33% reduced efficiency to basically everything they do and unique hooks give only downsides, tunnelling will always be the better option.13 -
agree with @cburton311 if you just buff killers and do not do anything to not make tunneling efficient no matter how powerful you make the killer some people will still do it and just be even more powerful and make the game feel worse.
6 -
It's way more than 33% reduced efficiency.
At 4 survivors, it's 1 survivor hooked, 1 survivor being chased/hiding, 1 survivor rescuing, 1 survivor on gens.
At 3 survivors, it's 1 survivor hooked, 1 survivor being pursued (chased/hiding), 1 survivor rescuing, 0 survivors on gens.
This is why gens fly at the start, and then crash at the end, and why perks that just automatically trigger remote regression like Pain Res are so string in 3v1. Tunnelling cuts generator progress by 100% unless survivors start cutting back on time resetting or have particularly long chases.
7 -
Pretty sure we can look up multiple threads and find killers talking about how they will tunnel no matter what happens since it's not their job to care about the enjoyment of others. The only way to solve tunneling is actively punishing it. A good start would be giving unhooked survivors 15 seconds of elusive and the new invincibility effect (with the bugs of some killers m2 bypassing it fixed) instead of deep wounds.
3 -
You don't even need to necessarily punish it. You could start by removing the notification alerting killers "HEY, HERE'S WHERE TWO SURVIVORS ARE AND ONE IS INJURED." There's also no reason killers should be able to see the aura of a hooked survivor. Removing both those would even add a level of skill and game awareness that would allow more skill expression.
But a more extreme version would be to simply move the survivor away when hooked like 2v8 does. Remove opportunity, and you can also then remove most, if not all of the anti-tunnel protections that killers hate so much. Slap on a mandatory 45 seconds in the fog before respawning with something like Pinhead box logic (ie attempted distance from all players) to prevent instant unhooks and tunnelling becomes basically unfeasable, with even the opportunity to provide some pretty significant post-hook buffs to get the killer moving around the map again. Obviously, some special carveouts would be wanted for stuff like endgame, basement, or territorial killers, or rework all those things entirely because absolutely nobody likes them and their current implementations don't promote fun or engaging gameplay, but it'd easily solve camping/tunnelling without any disincentives or punishments necessary.
5 -
That'd also encourage more camping. Don't get me wrong I think it's a great start but I think your idea of the 2v8 teleport works better if the survivor can choose to teleport instead of getting forced by the killer.
0 -
Less tunneling, higher killrates.
If people notice the survivor team is better than them they would just start to tunnel.
0 -
Yeah but what you wrote as exsample can be very easily abused which is what even nowdays people off the hook do they go for bodyblock (sometimes totaly not needed one) or go use their ds if killer doesnt tunnel which is another problem.
0 -
Precisely no amount of slowdown and regression beats this fact that when you have one survivor less (one pair of hand less) survivor can cover less things on maps like in your exsample thats why tunneling works because having 4 survivors alive on 1 gen left is gg and 3 on 1 gen left is possibility to win.
Thats a reason why even best players (deffinitely one of best and no one can object this fact) which are playing in tornaments will always if they can go for tunnel because they need to cut that effiency in order to win.
Having 3 survivors alive is super important because if you can preasure them well then you can have situations like you mention where no one does gens which means they dont progress their objective and even if they do its still 2 free survivors on gens not 3 which is huge just compare loosing two gens in 2 minutes to 3 gens in 2 minutes the difference is huge.
0 -
We will make tunneling an official system.
If the survivor is picked up again within 60 seconds of being unhooked, they cannot be hooked; instead, they automatically enter a waiting period to respawn, after which they respawn in a downed state at a random location.
By tunneling in this way, the Killer secures a guaranteed period of 1v3 gameplay, while the targeted survivor also prolongs their survival.
-1 -
Stop vilyfing a normal strategy.
tunneling solved.
-1 -
Alternatively, or additionally, you can also move the killer away from the hook. This is another soft pressure point in old DBD that BHVR removed. The two meta gen defense perks years ago were Pop and Ruin. Pop required the killer to move to a gen to get value from it. A quick pull could be strategic, forcing the killer to forego Pop, or commit to it. Either way, the killer has move away to get value. Likewise, defending Ruin typically required moving away from the hook if you wanted to defend it since you don't usually want to hook near hexes to reveal their location.
Contrast that with Pain Res, Deadlock, and Grim. They just work on hooks, period. There's no incentive to actually leave the hook. Pain Res goes across the entire map. Grim doesn't turn off if you turn straight back to the hook, and in fact, when survivors have literally nothing else to do because they're all blocked, all the more reason to do so. No reason to go past just outside the anti-camp range so you can interrupt unhooks for an easy skill-devoid double tap on the rescuer, AND a tunnel on top.
You could also use this to address mobility issues for killers without mobility. Open a portal for 20 seconds after a hook that allows a killer to teleport to one of five cardinal spots on the map (eg N/S/W/E, center),. The fog rolls in or whatever. Now killers without innate mobility have map presence, survivors can't automatically pre-run to the opposite direction of the hook since they don't necessarily know directionality, etc. Just disable RMB powers for like 10 seconds to prevent potential Blight/Spirit/Wesker insta-rush issues. The ability to camp and tunnel isn't removed, but a huge carrot has been added that simultaneously removes a ton of the opportunity to do so that makes it so obvious and brainless to do so.
1 -
Question, would you be alright with the devs bringing back old brand new parts? It'd then become a normal strategy to use them and thus in your eyes be totally fine right?
1 -
Which iteration of BNP's do you refer to?
1. The original instant-finish a gen?
2. The first reworked, constant skillcheck one that gave 10% progression per great?
3. The second rework that gave you two difficult skillchecks, which resulted in a 20% progression bonus?
2 -
I don't think this would work. Tunneling is just the easy strategy for the win. The majority of killers will take every win they can get so general buffs to the role would just boost kill rates through the roof. Tunneling would maybe decrease a little but that would be offset by survivors losing constantly and being lut off playing the role. The concept that most killers would ease off when they have the advantage is very optimistic.
When it comes to tunneling, you need to disincentivise it by making it less effective and using game mechanics to make it unviable or less appealing. Versus just handing killers easy wins without actually stopping them from doing it.
1 -
Original gen just pops, it was patched out for good reason because it was too strong and anyone can see that tunneling is extremely unbalanced. It should go the same way, but I wanted to see if you are intellectually consistent and would be fine with old brand new parts.
1 -
Ugghhhhhh.
Wow you got me.
Deliberately choosing to target the same person to chase, down and hook twice in a row is exactly the same as an item that can skip 1/7th of survivor objectives per instance brought in an instant.
Surely you'd be better off comparing ye olde BNP to ye olde mori which doesnt exist anymore. Huh i guess killer OP stuff does get nerfed.
Please dont talk about discussing in good faith if youre really thinking that "choosing a target twice" is the same as an ye olde BNP or mori.
While on topic, can we talk about survs not swapping gens every 30s to spread the pressure on all 7 gens. The killer doesnt get to play/kill enough when survs exit too quickly.
I mean if we can demand killers to go easy on survs because they decided they werent in the trial long enough, we surely can also demand survivors to slow down so the killer can get the amount of kill they want, else we'd be hypocrites, right?
-1 -
Nah, sorry but this is why your argument is bad. Something being a 'normal strategy' does not make something good for the game. Being able to kill someone because you can easily tunnel someone out is bad for the game.
1 -
Sigh good lird you make me remember the nurse crusades.
You didnt even aknowledge my arguments.
"Tunneling is bad"
Its only bad because your scrub brain imagines an rule that doesnt exists and expect zhe game and opponent to contort to it. You label this act which breaks your imaginary rule with a certain word and start using it in deterogatory ways in hope to shame your opponent to contort to it.
Survivors are not owed any amount of time in a trial just as you will say killers dont deserve any amount of kills theyve chosen themselves.
TLDR your argument is even worse.
-2 -
Ah yes, insults that's sure to make for a compelling argument.
1 -
Where, scrub? Thats not an insult unless you think it is. Dont.
Please dont answer if you dont wanna engage with my actual arguments.
-1 -
WHo would you body block if the killer wasn't returning to the hook trying to kill the unhooked?
0 -
Many do because they want to use ds on killer who isnt tunneling them etc.
There are survivors doing this some even bodyblock hooks even when its clear it will be just trade but they exist.
The biggest number of bodyblocks I personaly have to deal with is when I go after the saviour and uhooked guy just goes “nah” and bodyblocks then is frustrated when I go sometimes for them because its pointless to go for first target when his endurence run out and healthy none hooked survivor is in safe location so fast down with risk of DS then healthy unhooked survivor in safe location. In some cases survivors do stupid decisions and wonder why killer is so mean when they ask for tunnel bx bodyblocking heslthy durvivor who isnt death on hook.
0 -
I'd recommend not saying anything if you don't know the meaning of the words you write. It only makes you look foolish.
0 -
I think you misunderstand, if the killer hooks someone and then goes to search the gens for the next chase. There is no killer at the hook, so no body blocking can possibly happen. If the killer goes back to the hook for the easy hit, the game should make this harder to get value for the killer. There is currently too much value in tunnelling out a player. If someone is dead before the 3rd generator is complete, its like a 90% of killer victory. It is WAY to effective that is why killers tunnel someone out.
0 -
Well if killer goes to the hook and theres save happening and unhooked survivor goes for bodyblock when killers intention is clearly to go after the saviour then you cant be surprised when he decides to tunnel the bodyblocking survivor.
0
