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Looping Needs To Go
Comments
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Maybe it's just my survivors who mostly run to loops where mindgaming is not possible, either due to a lack of LoS breakers or the fact that the loops are so long, it's not possible to do anything except follow them in a circle.
But hey, I'm glad to hear you have survivors who run to loops where you have the opportunity to gain the upper hand.
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I would like to point out that Survivors don't need mindgames to loop. Most of the time they can simply see the Killer and thus just need to react and follow the optimal path.
Does that require skill? Probably. Is it fun for the Survivor? Maybe. Is it the best kind of chase? Definitely not.
Remember. Mindgames require unreliable information.
You need information so that there is an actual piece of logic to go through. But it needs to be unreliable so that if your opponent can predict you then they can guarantee a correct course of action (and vice versa)
For example. Lets say they removed scratchmarks. You as a Killer are chasing a survivor who runs out of LoS using a window. When you get around you see 3 different possible paths the Survivor could have taken. One of which would take you about 30 seconds to loop if you both run it optimally, one doesn't have a loop but has more juke areas where the Survivor might break LoS again and the 3rd location is practically a dead end where they will be downed immediately if you follow them down there.
If you Killer choses wrong the Survivor will escape for sure.
Where would you go as Killer?
Where would you go as Survivor?
It obviously depends on your read on the other player in that particular match, which means you can never rely on having a best answer. But the important thing is that a decision made with partial but incomplete information was required. The Survivor doesn't know where the Killer is going to go in order to continue the chase and the Killer doesn't know where the Survivor ran in order to end it.
Looping however is often just about running the optimal path. There isn't really any meaningful decisions to make since there is an objectively right answer to any action AND enough information to execute it on reaction.
Yes not all loops are like that. But most are and that's the problem. The Killers shack is an example of that. It's more of following an algorithm than preforming a mindgame since barring perks you have enough information to be sure what to do at any given moment.
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It might be boring. You could still adjust those loops to be able to mindgame on them. But removing pallets would force the devs to make Killers slower which would be even more boring than running in circles.
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Nobody mentioned wanting to remove pallets, so I don't know why you're bringing that up.
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I certainly don't want to remove pallets. That would be very counterproductive.
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Since the thread was about "Looping needs to go" and pallets being potential loops I recognized this as "pallets need to go" and if pallets go, Killers need to be slower which is like I said, more boring than anything else.
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Yeah pallets are crucial to have a loop. Windows can make loops too.
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No, not really. The problem isn't looping per se, it's why looping works in the first place. Looping works primarily due to three things: different hitboxes, different accelerations, different speed reductions while turning.
Survivors are smaller than killers, accelerate more quickly than killers (relative to their top speed), and can turn on a dime without losing much speed.
Killers are bigger, accelerate more slowly (relative to their top speed), and slow down considerably when turning.
You wouldn't need to tweak that many loops if you just got rid of these three things.
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@MrDardon for reference my current stance is:
A: Looping as a dominant strategy needs to go
B: Pallets and Windows ect NEED to exist since they are what make alternative strategy's plausible. Thus they need to stay
C: Thus some alternative method to nerfing loops is needed.
I have not settled on a way to do that and it would be great if we could brainstorm together.
Some potential ideas are:
Stamina system for survivors.
Hitbox and bloodlust buffs for Killers.
Total map overhaul
None of these are "silver bullets" or anything. I personally think that Stamina has the most potential but would be hard enough to implement that coming up with something else would be much better.
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Note: My stance is not the same as Orions clearly even if we do reach nearly identical conclusions. Please do not hold us to each others claims.
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Says you.
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Usually when I play Killer I loops exactly how a Survivor's optimal loop looks like. Pushing myself as near as possible to a wall or obstacle but watching out that I don't get stuck (of course needs movement practice for that), most people I verse as Survivor just run and don't try to close the gap as much as possible. I barely let space between me and a wall so I can shorten loops even more. I don't look straight, I look slightly sideways so I don't have to turn that much when turning and it gives me a lot of advantages.
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Stamina with the already nerfed Exhaustion would be to much. Hitboxes are broken at the moment anyways, so they need to fix those first and then try to do something with that. Alot of these stuff could be altered when Dedicated Servers go live.
Loops consist of pallets most of the time. I never saw a Survivor looping me or another Killer around a rock to gain time, they usually loop circles where there is a pallet. Where would you place pallets if there would be an adjustment to a strategy which also doesn't sound very logic. Removing pallet loops would make every pallet safe and we'll get only maps like The Game where you are forced to drop and break a pallet. No mindgames or anything involved.
My opinion would be: Make every pallet loop like a jungle gym with walls where you can not see a Survivor trough, *cough* farm maps. Different sorts of jungle gyms would be nice to see variation and it would also make it more difficult to play those loops right as Killer or Survivor.
The only loops which are busted are the farm loops with a car in the middle (no mindgame, ridicolous loop and can be an infinite if the Killer doesn't break the pallet), cow loops are unbalanced and every loop around the Thomson House is busted. In some sort I agree, but not with the "Looping needs to go" part. The devs need to adjust certain pallet loops on certain maps. And also increase the distance in which safe pallets can spawn together, because The Game has the most stupid pallet spots in my opinion
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Lol you are the king of semantics. This is why I don't debate you.
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This guy is literally asking for survivor to be unplayable.
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@Saint_Ukraine you are going to need to be more specific. Which guy?
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I think, you are missing a few important aspects of looping. The fact that stalling/looping a killer, gives you a map/pressure control and that pallets and vaults causes safe spaces.
Even if running in a straight line and around obstacles wouldn't make a difference, looping around pallet/vault spots will still happen. Mostly because the map doesn't offers straight lines, so survivors basicly create one by using a loop and get the most out of a pallet/vault. Certain loops might become shorter, but it wouldn't change that strategy that much. It would probably still more reliable than juking a killer, which is much less controlled than a stall chase scenario and much less controlled.
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Not surprised the devs won't confront this issue. Remove looping, game is instantly shifted towards the power role... Like it should be.
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If you want a torture simulator maybe this game is not for you. No offence.
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@NuclearBurrito KaoMinerva
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i lose killers all the time bc looping helps me get to a spot where i can mindgame. you dont stay at the same loop. ofc you will go do down once the pallet is gone and you keep going in circles. looping help you find opportunity.
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The Entity could block the space after a few passes.
Don't hate me please, just stating a work-around. If Killers leave there's no game. Or is Last Year active? HMM?
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lmao Okay then don’t start crying if they do that and then start to slow down all the killers to balance Survivors
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be funny if killers were same speed as survivor but with no pallets. it might make players learn to hug walls better. maybe this could be for grey and yellow rank playmode?
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last year is dead as #########.
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nah it shouldn't be same speed, but imagine chasing a Survivor with no pallets or jungle gyms, 110 or 105 %. That'd still make some Killers op but it would make Killer boring as #########
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Looping is Dead by Daylights core gameplay loop. If its removed the game decomposes.
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without pallet and at 110? there would be no mindgame. every killer would be like legion.
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Excactly. And that'd be no fun for either side. 105 % also, it wouldn't be fun at all even if Survivor's can't run away from you via pallets or something.
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Which is why we don't want that. I just want to do proper mindgaming which REQUIRES unreliable information. Looping does not provide unreliable information since I know for sure where the Survivor is as the Killer (using scratchmarks and/or vision) and the Survivor knows where the Killer is (using 3rd person and/or red stain)
Therefor Mindgames cannot meaningfully occur most of the time while looping. Yes there are exceptions like a few loops in maps like Larry's as well as the entirety of the Spirit (who I main btw). But in general most loops occur in places where the Killer and Survivor have vision of each other.
Thus you aren't having any mindgames. Just routing.
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Routing is also an adjustable thing and that's why I don't mind looping at all. As Killer I can adjust my movement and rooting (it's not that adjustable like mindgames but still is) and that's why I don't mind any loops which are fair. Unfair loops are a different story.
The only thing I get triggered is when I get punished for something I did well on.
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You need to try to understand certain tiles better because that's completely untrue. There is a "breakoff point" on most loops where both the killer and survivor cannot see each other.
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Ok, maybe I'm not understanding whats going on here. What exactly is looping?
- I paused here and went to Le Google-
((after a quick google search I saw some videos on how to as well as previous whining posts. JFC folks seriously?!!))
As a survivor you're expected to do whatever it takes to get away. I know I would if I were being chased. I'm just admittedly bad at it.
If you, as the killer, can't get the survivor who has figured out how to run around in circles while the other 1/2/3 teammates do gens. Thats on YOU.
The game is not broken. The survivor looping you is not toxic.
Looping does not need to be removed any more than camping does. It is a survivor tactic every bit as much as camping is a killer tactic.
Personally, I like that survivors aside from Laurie, do not have the ability to attack the killer. There is no fight or flight. There is simply flight and stay alive. Looping exists for a reason. And on killers, we can either "git gud" or not.
Now if its a map issue, thats different, and that is an issue that needs addressing.
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???
unless youre talking about safe rocks or boxes, the other loops are where you lose los and thats where mindgames happen. for both sides.
what scottjund said.
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Okay, then make Dead Hard base kit, with a 10 second cooldown and no exhaustion.
Remove pallets, I'll be fine.
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Make ruin base line and I'm all for it 🤷
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Duh, ofc Looping should go.
Its beyond boring seeing the same area 5 times in the last 15 secs.
But what solutions are there really?
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The chase is the fun part of DbD, for both survivors and killers.
What we need is not to shorten chases, but to give the killer more time = a 2nd objective for survivors.
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No. Pallet-looping (I'm not talking about infinites) did not exist prior to patch 1.1.1. Survivors aren't just passively using it because it's there, they caused it to exist in the first place: at one point, in the early days of Dead by daylight, survivors started to use pallets to farm and grief the killer rather than escape chases. Killers complained, got told to "just adapt", and we did. We started playing the hokey-cokey at pallets, when survivors were about to drop them. Long story short, the survivor dropped the pallet, missed the stun, and the chase continued. The situation worsened when a bug that caused stuns to award max boldness points was introduced. Some survivors would even disconnect after missing a stun, they were so desperate for the points, lol. Anyway, at that point killers started lunging mid cokey to get hits in and cut the BS short. Survivors went ballistic and drowned the forums in over eight thousand threads about "unfair" hits through pallet drops. So patch 1.1.1 dropped and brought several buffs to pallets with it, the most noticeable one being the so-called "pallet vacuum". But there were also a set of unlisted changes that included modifications to both the range and time-window for a pallet stun, and also a reduction in the survivors' collision.
And no, there's no such thing as "mindgames" in DbD. It's just a word used by people who don't know what they're talking about, but still want to sound clever. Split-decision doesn't take any kind of mentalism.
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There's no such thing as "mindgames" in DbD. It's just a word used by people who don't know what they're talking about, but still want to sound clever. Split-decision doesn't take any kind of mentalism.
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I didn't expect you to understand.
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this is single handedly the stupidest post i've ever seen. It's like saying remove the killers ability. Then all the survivors can do is hold m1 on gens, and killers can only m1 people and hook them. There would be no fun AT ALL. The most fun part of the game is the chase. Like seriously is this a troll post
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That's because unless the killer is stupid or goes for some else, it's pretty much impossible to win a chase. Even with stealth perks on claudette, you still have to be lucky to be able to get out of the chase.
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You might be bad at the game.
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What are you on about. MIndgames just means trying to predict what the other person will do, and be unpredictable. It's a massive part of the game, with survivors using it to escape a chase, and killers using it to double back at unpredictable times. If you don't think they exist, you probably have no idea how to play well
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It's the most fun part of the game, as you are actually doing something that involves interacting with the other team. Looking for them and hooking them isn't fun at all, you could do that in a single player game against bots
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Spouting non sequiters as always, I see. Whatever, it doesn't change the fact that "mindgames" is just a stupid buzzword used by those who don't know how to explain themselves or describe what they're talking about, which is playing the odds. It doesn't matter what you do during a match, there's always a 50/50 chance that you'll be right -except where the devs caved in and unbalanced the game in survivors' favour.
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Man looping is much funnier than playing immersive and hiding everytime, for both sides.
I'm sry but i think you need to get good.
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I think survivors need ways to be able to survive a chase, so I’m hesitant to say looping in its entirety needs to go.
I do think 360s on survivors should go, as well as the cheesy loops that seem to go on forever though. The game needs to be less Benny Hill and more like a horror movie when it comes to outrunning the killer.
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