The Emblem System Serves Absolutely No Purpose
Comments
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By the game's logic, it means that they were boosted survivors and were higher than their alleged skill level. Yeh, it makes no sense to me.
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While I know the system in place, lore wise, is because we're trying to entertain the entity as a killer, and thus boring plays give less results.
Doesn't mean it's not ######### tho, it punishes because you can instadown. Perhaps rather then scoring on hits, it should score on health states removed @Peanits ? MoM and BT count as health states though, so as to not cheese the killer just cause someone brought those perks.
Perk-related Mori's should automatically count as all remaining hooks left on that survivor, as well as a sacrifice, wheras offerings should only give 1 hooks worth and a kill.
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Ranks are so you're matched with people of equal skill. That's the point of the system.
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Same thing happens with Plague using her power to get them broken and then hitting. Losing 50% of your hits really hurts.
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4k safety again.
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Camp less?
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Didn't have any camping penalty. I just had the audacity to use my power.
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If I can beg for just one thing, please bring back the victory cube. It was simple, understandable, and rewarded killers for being good at their objective, however they achieved it. It felt correct. Feel free to do the rank adjustment like the new emblem system, just please make it so the killer doesn't have to drag out the game just to not be punished for winning.
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A majority of my 4ks actually safety at purple and red ranks. If I get a 3k, I'm almost certainly depipping, and a 1k or a 2k are guaranteed depips.
This is not how the game is supposed to work. This was a 4k.
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Apparently if I end a chase to quickly I get a sliver emblem for chaser, even though it says that you get more points for ENDING A CHASE QUICKLY, maybe I should let survivors run me around for a whole 3 gens and then end the chase
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This is why the emblem system needs to go.
Ranking systems should be based on winning and losing ... isn't the point of a ranking system to put players into different skill classes? The players who win and are good at escaping, surviving and killing go up in rank, the players who lose and are bad at survival, chases, stealth, tracking and downing stay in lower ranks where htey get to hone their skills against those like themselves.
This is a no brainer but for some reason BHVR figured it's better to have a useless ranking emblem system to "incentivize" player behavior instead of fixing and making changes to design flaws to promote better gameplay.
The emblem system instead should simply count towards blood points. Or if they want, iridecsent shards. Maybe emblem system counts towards XP, which is what drives shards. Emblems need to be designed to reflect achieving the goals and behaviors we want in the game, and the better you get at emblems the more XP you get, thus more shards. This makes a hell of a lot more sense -- you gain more experience doing objectives properly in the game.
But you gain rank based on whether you win or lose.
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This safetied.
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ANOTHER 4k safety.
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I'm no fan of the emblem system. It does a pretty poor job of determining good play on the killer's part in particular. I would take the Victory Cube system in a heartbeat given a choice. But if you actually want to rank up (I'm not sure why really, there is no reward) then you just need to learn to game the system.
Once you have established dominance over the survivors, the trick is to kill 2 survivors and play bloodpoint farm with the remaining 2 survivors. Let them get their pallet stuns and heal up after hitting them. Let them finish all the generators and then kill them both. Doing this will increase all your emblem scores.
While it is possible to play pretend bloodpoint farm game with the survivors, it is difficult to communicate your intent with 4 survivors. But when you only have 2 survivors left and they both know good and well that you can kill them whenever you want, they tend to be more easily manipulated.
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Oh I know fully well how to exploit the system, you just farm hits after killing 2. I just A. Don't enjoy it and B. Don't enjoy the Killers you have to pick to do it.
I'm posting these to show the system failing its job and why it needs to be changed.
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i'm sorry but if you're 4king and barely black pipping at green ranks it's on you lol
like yeah the emblem system is garbage but that only really applies to purple/red ranks
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I consistently hit R1. It isn't "on me" it's on poor emblem design. Killing 4 means you dominated, period.
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killing 4 can also mean the survivors threw. why should you rank up for that? if the end of the game is more a result of survivor incompetence than your own competence then it doesn't make sense to reward you for it; they'll rank down, but you shouldn't rank up
if BHVR is trying to implement a rank system in which your rank actually reflects your own skill, then it doesn't make sense to rank you up for games you didn't even really win for yourself. games like those would just bloat your rank
killing everyone at rank 10 should almost never black pip you. the only way i can think of that happening is if you just 1 hooked everyone
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@miaasma Winning due to survivor incompetence and winning due to your own competence are identical in terms of how it should effect your ranks.
If your in a rank where a low skilled killer can dominate the survivors then that means that you are in a rank where even lower skilled survivors exist.
While you can and should depip those Survivors, that Killer should still pip so they will be matched with Survivors in a higher rank who are more competent.
In the event that this ends up going overboard and sends the Killer up too much because of this, then he will start losing a lot and thus depip back down until eventually they stabilize into their proper rank.
Remember: While ranking systems are often tied to progression, you shouldn't miss the forest for the tree's. The job of a ranking system is to give the matchmaking system the means of telling the difference between lower skilled players are higher skilled players.
Thus the players at red ranks should be the best players and the worst or newest players should be at yellow ranks.
Remember though, that this is checking for RELATIVE skill. If everyone in the game is terrible but 1 person who is just meh, then you would expect the meh player to be at red ranks.
Or in otherwords, you change in rank after a game should roughly be:
(you competence - Your opponents competence)
If your opponent is better than you then you should depip depending on how big the gap is. If you are better than your opponent then you should pip. It doesn't matter if your better because the opponents is 0 since the whole point is to track relative skill.
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The point of a ranking system is to put me against players of equal skill. It helps no one to just de-pip all of 4 of them then keep me at that rank to continue de-pipping players of that skill level.
In no other context would you apply this logic. If one team in Call of Duty beats the other because one team is just horrendous, the game doesn't say the first team tied and the second team loss, the rank change is zero-sum.
Likewise, the rank system ought to be zero-sum here, or you're going to bottleneck red rank killers, inflate queue times and get wildly high variation in skill within the mid ranks.
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Imagine playing a Killer game where all of the Survivors are AFK.
You can't get much deviousness because they all die on first hook
You can't get Malicious because they don't heal
You can't get chaser because they don't run
You can only get gate keeper
Survivors have much better, but they still have this problem with benevolence. Since an AFK Killer won't hit survivors and thus they can't get points for healing.
The reason I bring of AFK survivors/killers is because an opponent that isn't playing presents you with the greatest skillgap you can possibly get without someone griefing. And thus you should be able to easily double pip against these survivors/killers
Except you can't, because these emblems first require you to get the chance to attempt them, and that doesn't always happen if the other player isn't good enough.
Basically, any ranking system that EVER requires you to play sub-optimally is automatically a bad ranking system.
That's actually why I think that even having a camping punishment like that is a bad idea. Because encouraging healthy gameplay is not the job of the ranking system. And trying to force it means that in the event that it is optimal to camp, the emblems won't reflect that being smart play even when it is.
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Also. Isn't everyone being 1 hooked a sign that you did GOOD?
Since that means that not only was your strategy successful, but they didn't even get the chance to try reversing the damage you caused.
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Devour Hope is not the sole reason the emblem system doesn't work. Ever since the new emblem changes were implemented it has been impossible too rank up on either side. IMO the emblem changes should be reverted till testing can be done on it so it can be fixed.
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Besides, this shouldn't be the bar for what it takes to double pip. I had to literally play with the last 2 survivors to farm my hits to get Chaser up to prove my point that I am well aware of how the system works, but if I would've killed them earlier I would've gotten bronze chaser and silver malicious.
As it stands, I have 0 control over Gatekeeper, very mild control over Chaser and no control over whether I get iridescent or gold Devout since they can just choose to not save.
This took me several attempts because many times I'd just get silver or bronze Gatekeeper because I literally cannot chase more than one person at once. Gatekeeper is representative of SURVIVORS not me; I have more control over the weather than this emblem.
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If there is anything I hope we can say we have learned from this system its this:
The emblem system looks at how you did what you did, instead of just looking at what you accomplished.
In otherwords:
The system right now looks at things like how many times you hooked people and hit people and stuff. But those aren't the things you are trying to accomplish. It should be tracking things like sacrafice states and health states. Or better yet, the Kills themselves since that's only thing that can objectively be stated to always be what a Good killer will do (since by definition a good Killer is good at killing)
Same for survivors. It shouldn't care about healing others for example because there are a lot of situations where healing someone hurts your odds of survival. Losing pips because you did the smart thing and left isn't just morally wrong, but factually wrong since what you did isn't a misplay.
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Ignoring emblems and just playing with your own sense of fun usually means a player gets to hang around ranks below their skill level which kind of keeps the cycle going. As they are now emblems are just ranking guard rails trying to promote what the Dev's consider as optimal fun, there is very little to do with skill outside of forcing specific things to happen for points.
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if survivors are throwing the game and the killer is taking advantage, it's indicative that the survivors are in the wrong rank; conversely, if the killer is getting absolutely stomped by survivors (who aren't in a swf and using a low ranked player to get lower ranked killers or anything like that) it's indicative that the killer is in the wrong rank. in the former scenario the survivors should depip, and in the latter the killer should depip. survivors don't pip if the killer does so badly that they don't have to go for saves and just do gens and leave, and killers don't pip if the game gets delivered to them through survivor incompetence. at best, both parties black pip in these cases. thus, your point about winning through opponent's misplays vs your own prowess doesn't hold up
if some horrible rank-related bug occurs and i (currently a rank 3 killer) end up stomping all over a bunch of survivors who just bought the game, i absolutely shouldn't pip for it because nothing i demonstrated indicated i should be above my current rank. a rank 20 killer who just bought the game should pip for that game, i should not
the entire point of the current rank system is (theoretically; whether or not it actually accomplishes this is debatable) to reward people for winning games that are more evenly matched and punish people for losing games horribly. if you're stomping all over people in a game it's indicative that those people's ranks (provided they're your rank) are bloated and they'll depip as they should, and the game will black pip you thereby not bloating your rank by rewarding you for destroying people you are clearly more skilled than
the only issues with the current emblem system are killer specific emblems (and perhaps gatekeeper as a whole); for example, killers like billy suffer disproportionately in the chaser emblem because they have instadown abilities and chases end relatively quickly, so obviously this system isn't perfect. but in the case of a rank 10 killer killing everyone and not pipping, especially in a game i haven't watched myself, i'm going to go ahead and assume that the system is not the problem. i had no trouble breaking out of green ranks with hard to pip with killers like billy, and at that level even stompy games generally yielded pips
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I have no problem breaking out either. For a few games I decided to deliberately exploit the system, and the above game was the fruit of that labor (after several attempts because I can't do literally anything about Gatekeeper and only have somewhat control over chaser depending on how badly they genrush, and I have ZERO control over whether or not I can get Iridescent Devout).
If you strip away the Gatekeeper emblem and fix Chaser, then virtually every game will follow the pattern that the Victory Cube did anyways.
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@miaasma I know that what you described is what happens. I'm saying that it shouldn't be.
Lets say you match 4 rank 10's with a rank 10 killer.
All 5 players had to play well enough to at the very least get to rank 10, by definition.
The Killer easily and quickly downs and hooks all 4 survivor's at once thus 1 hooking them.
What this means is that the Killer was able to utterly crush survivors who were able to get to rank 10 in the first place. If they were evenly matched then that would mean they are in the right rank, however that's not what happened. The explanation for this is that the Killer is better than the Survivors he just faced, and since those survivors are rank 10 that by definition means he's better than rank 10 survivors. And that the Survivors are worst than a rank 10 Killer for the same reason.
Of course that doesn't mean their better than ALL rank 10 survivors/killers, hence needing more than just 1 or 2 pips in order to rank up.
Let's put it this way:
Suppose the best DBD player in the world started playing the game on a new account tomorrow. He's amazing at being a Killer and will play perfectly to optimize his kill rate, never missing nurse blinks always making correct predictions with spirit ect.
Since he's the best Killer in the game, but he still needs to start at rank 20 cuz it's a new account that doesn't know he's the best killer yet he is initially being matched with rank 20's.
Since rank 20's are incompetent noobs for the most part he easily is able to destroy all 4 of them no problem, and why wouldn't he? We just matched the best player ever against people who just bought the game and are probably don't even know the controls yet.
Now, pop quiz:
Should the Killer pip? I mean you did just say that the point of the ranking system is:
"to reward people for winning games that are more evenly matched and punish people for losing games horribly."
And since these matches were NOT evenly matched then clearly no pip for the Killer, should have known' better than to be significantly better than their opponents.
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The emblems are poorly implemented. They don't have the different killer playstyles in mind. A trapper will end a chase differently than Billy. Myers will lose many chases and get some instant downs or grabs. Legion is even supposed to lose chases after the first hit.
The devs think that a match should have a certain length. If it's to short, no one will pip. Problem is, that while they introduced a minimum time requirement for a match in order to pip, they forgot to adjust the already existing gen repair times and moris.
Game can end in 4 minutes. Either by survivors escaping or being dead.
They should go back to the very first system. Where only points determined if someone piped.
I've seen a streamer with 31,5k points who black piped. Like... #########?
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Using bloodpoints was even worse. You could farm with the Killer in order to have everyone double pip which means you don't have an actual competition
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Also it still punished you for ending the game too fast.
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To add to this, the objectives were NOT diametrically opposed in the bloodpoint system and they absolutely must be.
If the killer's sole objective is to kill, then for the Killer to win, the Survivors must necessarily lose; their victory conditions are mutually exclusive. It's possible that none of the survivors nor the killer outperforms the other side and everyone safeties, which means they're all at the rank they belong at.
However, a killer consistently 4king means they aren't where they belong and the rank should be adjusted.
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i don't know how to better explain this for you
in your rank 10 scenario, if the survivors are being destroyed so handily by a rank 10 killer then they're obviously bloated and should derank, which they will. honestly given how rank works in green ranks the killer will still probably rank up, but this scenario is more of an indication of the survivors giving the killer the game for free than the killer demonstrating any sort of skill (think everyone farming each other in the basement without BT and getting 4ked at 5 gens. all the killer had to do was hit them down and hook them, the survivors did the rest of the work). again, why should the killer be rewarded for this?
your rank 20 scenario actually occurred; a while ago, zubatlel did a perkless climb from rank 20 to rank 1 playing primarily huntress, nurse and billy. of course, he did rank up despite beating people who were obviously far inferior in skill to him, but eventually he had to play the game in a way that facilitated ranking up, not winning. for example, as he climbed higher in rank he'd play less billy (because billy sucks at ranking up) and more nurse. as a killer, if you care about ranking up, you can play the game in a way that allows you to even though the survivors are basically donating you the game
your argument ultimately doesn't really mean anything though because ranking up at rank 20 doesn't function the way it does in red ranks, purple ranks or even green ranks. it's purely an academic discussion point. i haven't been in rank 20 in a long time, and certainly not with the new emblems, but i don't imagine it's possible to 4k and not rank up at that rank even if you just 1 hook everyone. this is why in my previous post i mentioned a red rank killer going against rank 20s, because then you're dealing with the killer playing at their correct level against survivors much worse than them, rather than a killer playing at an artificially lower level with survivors who are correctly ranked
you can equip an ebony mori on any killer, tunnel everyone off first hook and kill them, and "win the game". should you rank up for this? i mean, you're 4king, right? but you took a shortcut to the 4k and thus wouldn't be rewarded in most emblems, so the game treats you as such. same goes for if you just 1 hook everyone
like i said, this rank system is not flawless. i'm just pointing out that not pipping for a 4k isn't a universal bad. sure, there are times when it's kind of outrageous (billy's called safety pip king for a reason), but if you insidious camp with leatherface and let the survivors kill themselves with altruism then you aren't going to rank up because nothing you've done demonstrates that you should and the emblem system is reflecting that
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You think Billy is a depip king? Least he has the map pressure to farm hits, Leatherface doesn't. That's neither here nor there though, we all know how to exploit the Emblem system, and we all know which killers are better at it.
That's our whole argument; it isn't judging if we played well, it's judging if we conformed to the hold-hands-and-sing-Kumbaya playstyle or not. Unfortunately, that playstyle arbitrarily favors the killers that are already stronger and completely shafts the mid to low tier killers for using their power the way it was designed to be used, barring Legion whom receives artificially inflated emblems.
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billy (if played correctly, aka chainsawing rather than m1ing) is by far the easiest to depip with. leatherface can't get chainsaws in as many scenarios as billy can because rip leatherface sucks and i wish he didn't so he has to M1 way more and chases tend to last longer
myers is kind of easy to depip with too because he gets such awful deviousness points
i personally main wraith but play a lot of billy and i find wraith much easier to pip with despite finding games harder than billy games, which is symptomatic of the issues with the emblems. i want to be clear that i don't disagree with criticisms of the emblem system, but it's important to point out that 4king does not guarantee a pip and shouldn't
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What I saw is that as Killer you are punished for mori after first hook, with hard mori (means tunnel/down under hook without borrow) even more. You get fast 4K, approx with 20k BP but you are glad for safe-pip
I don´t see problem in Devour, because you have to do something for that mori, so you are moriing mostly dead-hook survivors (was fun in few games as ghost during leveling - don´t judge me - i met GF with devour,make you choice and noed).
As survivor you are punished for playing stealth (minimum contact with killer but saving from hook - save and/or with borrow, gens, totems etc)
And find out some normal killer these days is problem. Almost everybody hard tunnel, proxy camp and so on. And this goes from green to red ranks. Even when you get lower emblems for that. So I rather go against Devour or Make your choice, cuz killers don´t camp so much, but it´s rarity. Like in past 4 day I survived like 10 games out of 50 on red/purple ranks.
Little diferent topic but still tied to emblem system :
As killer you are still punished due to DC´s, most early DC bigger punishment (like yesterday, i was going as ghostface, stalked in leaning mode Claudete in shack during not so long chase, she throw down shack pallete, give me final sec of stalk so exposed - before i finished break pallete animation she DC´d)
And DC trend is still going to ridiculous numbers. And it doesn´t matter if you are playing around rank 20, around 10 or in red.
IDK if this is Europe only, cuz when I take a look on some America streams it looks like lower DC rate, but what I said above about DC is true. And I think many of us were punished by this behavior.
I know that DEV´s are tracking leaving/DC but I don´t feel that something is happening.
I think that similar system like in MOBA games should help against DC-ing trend.
You leave? ok wait X minutes before you can play again doesn´t matter which side
Left again? wait 2 times more ... and so on
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@NuclearBurrito so with the current system, you can't farm anymore?
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you absolutely can farm for emblem points in the current system
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You kinda just proved my point with the Zubatlel, since as you said yourself in order to pip all the way he had to STOP playing optimally. With a proper ranking system you should never under any circumstances have to do that.
Hypothetically if camping was the best strategy in the game (it's not) then Killer's who camp should eventually end up being in the best ranks due to using the best strategy and thus being the best Killers (due to the fact that a Killer using a worse strategy will by definition not do as well as a Killer who is the same in every way except with a better strategy)
Since the final arbiter of a Strategies effectiveness is it's results. Or in other words good strategies are good if and only if they actually work. That means the only fair way you can judge such a strategy is by those results.
Since a camping leatherface is a strategy. And a 4k is a highly favorable result. An insidious camping leatherface who 4k's should pip. You could argue that the survivor's were just bad and that good survivors would punish the strategy, but guess what! You don't actually know that for sure. Or rather, you don't until such a survivor comes along and implements a counter strategy (which in this case is gen rush). Once this leatherface hits the rank where the counter strategy is being used he will start being crushed back down 1 rank and then be stuck at that rank until he gets a strategy that beats the survivors strategy. Until he does he is at the proper rank since whenever he ends up in the higher rank he is quickly depipped back down.
However if instead you arbitrarily make it so the leatherface doesn't pip despite having a strategy that works against survivors of his rank, what does that mean for the rank right above him? You would expect those survivors to be a bit better than the rank below them but not by much. The point being that those survivors will do well but still lose.
For demonstration purposes let's say for the average survivor in each rank:
12 = Is crushed by a campers
and
10 = Loses to campers but only after a long struggle
and finally
8 = Wins against campers
Remember that the strategy is arbitrary and I'm only using camping to hammer that home. The importance is the effectiveness
The Leatherface here starts at low ranks, if he's at something like 12 then he's not going to pip since he crushed them too hard so "clearly the survivors were in the wrong rank".
The problem is that all of the other survivors are ALSO getting crushed by the same strategy over multiple games. How many games does someone need to win before it becomes clear that it's not a fluke?
By the way with the current pipping system (not emblem system, just the system that converts pips into ranks) it's 5 games in a row with single pips or 3 with double pips.
Anyways so the Leatherface at a rank where survivors are decimated by his strategy (again, the fact that it's cheese isn't something you can reliably quantify) isn't pipping.
However, if the Leatherface were to instead go against the rank 10's he would pip no problem since they put up a fight. He would eventually stabilize at rank 9 since rank 8's cause him to depip.
As for using Mori's causing you to pip. YES! THAT TOO! BECAUSE IT WORKS! Even though it's OP? YES! OP THINGS ARE OP BECAUSE THEY WORK!
You know what the solution to a thing being OP is? Nerfing the OP thing. If mori's give Killers an easy win (and they do) then mori's should be nerfed.
Taking shortcuts in order to win is exactly what you would expect someone who's good at the game to do. Someone who's bad at the game would also do it sure, but a good player will do it better. And the fact that bad players can do it is what makes it a balance issue in the first place. However that's a balancing thing, NOT something that the ranking system is supposed to deal with.
Again. The final arbiter of skill is results. If one player gets good results from their strategy then they should pip. End of story. Even if it isn't harder it's still better.
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@Leatherbilly just curious, what was your leather face build in these games?
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@Tsulan with the current system you can't BOTH farm.
The Killer farming is still at the expense of the Survivors and vice versa.
That being said neither side should have to farm with an ideal ranking system.
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@NuclearBurrito ngl i stopped reading when you said i "proved your point" and then typed a bunch of fluff about how survivors getting 4ked by an insidious bubba aren't donating him the game and how i don't "know" that they aren't doing so (protip: it's impossible to play well and get 4ked by an insidious bubba. do you even play survivor or what)
sorry but at this point i don't think there's much i could say that could convince you that results aren't everything in this game, otherwise every survivor who escapes a match (regardless of contribution to their team throughout the game) should earn a pip and every killer who 4ks regardless of playstyle should pip. all it takes is a modicum of nuance to understand why that creates a flawed rank system but i guess you aren't capable of that
i'll just let you be wrong and leave
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BBQ/Enduring/Spirit Fury/Bamboozle.
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Are you contesting that we should use the results of a strategy to judge if a strategy is effective? What would we use besides that?
Can you prove that insidious camping is a bad strategy without using the results of insidious camping?
Because I know we can both agree that it IS a bad strategy. But I come to that conclusion based off the fact that a simple to execute counter strategy exists.
If that simple to execute strategy did NOT exist then insidious camping would not be such a bad strategy, since you would lose against it and thus win using it.
"otherwise every survivor who escapes a match (regardless of contribution to their team throughout the game) should earn a pip and every killer who 4ks regardless of playstyle should pip."
I agree with this statement btw.
A Survivor that escapes should pip. This isn't a teamgame and the only mechanical reason to help the other survivors is under the expectation that doing so will improve your own odds of survival. Sacrificing yourself for the other survivors is thus a misplay.
A Killer who 4k's should pip. It is explicitly his job to Kill as many as possible. If he succeeds then whatever methods he used to do so were thus validated as being successful by definition. And thus whatever strategy was used is a good one (or at least better than the survivor's strategies)
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I would like to point out that using wins and losses is the ranking system that nearly every game in existence uses and works great.
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hoo boy what a pedantic mess
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I'm just curious now since you guys keep bringing up insidious camping. How else are you SUPPOSE to use this perk? It specifically required that you stand still, so what would be an appropriate use of it EXCEPT camping?
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no, that's its only use, which is why it's a bad perk for the game and should be reworked
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