The Community has Spoken about SWF
Read this post: https://steamcommunity.com/app/381210/discussions/0/1480982338956455265/
This topic has the most amount of comments i have seen and it makes a very good point.
SWF has been a problem since it was introduced. It provides survivors with basically free detection perks. I remember the Developer stating this game isn't about communication yet SWF is the very definition of communication.
Communicating SWF are also breaking rule #5: Using 3rd party software or other tools to gain any kind of unfair advantage wasn’t intended by the game, except if they have been whitelisted by us.
Fixes in this topic that are popular include:
-Bonus BP% per SWF member
-Make SWF unranked
-Make Killer SWF based perks that only work on SWF
NOTE: NOT ALL SWF USE COMMUNICATION BUT MAJORITY DO
Comments
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But what if we’re just talking about cute boys?
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What about all the simply decent random groups that people think are SWF and complain about.
The NUMBERS have spoken. A very minimal amount of lobbies are 4 man SWF. Half of lobbies are solo....
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I was a survivor main but switched to killers becausr they are OP and receive BO faster....and you're complaining about SWF? That's the only option in the game to do well as a survivor. Rando lobbies are too easy to sacrifice.
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I was a survivor main who switched to killer also and I find killer more stressful at red ranks.
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if they REALLY broke rule #5, wouldn't most swf groups have received bans for it? why even mention that?
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*It's a game mechanic too.
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I forgot to mention you need proof which is hard obtain without them explicitly stating they were communicating. DBD doesn't come with intrusive software to detect outside communication.
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SWF is a game mechanic but outside communication isn't
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Here’s the thing though;
You can’t really do anything about it. If you get destroyed by a SWF; maybe it’s a you problem. Run Lightborn if you think you’re getting blinded too much. Use Mad Grit if you think Body Blocking is an issue.
I can see what you mean by it being annoying, but there is nothing that should be done to it. As a solo player (and sometimes SWF, depends on how I’m feeling), it’s fine.
You shouldn’t penalize players working together with voice comms, because without it, this game’s que times would suffer.
Also; I feel like this needs to be said- 4-man SWF is rare. And if you think you’re getting destroyed by said groups, maybe it’s not the SWF that needs to be reworked. I don’t mean this in a bad way, of course; I’m still learning, much like everyone else is. But improvement usually starts with failure.
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Most of the community actually doesn't use forums thou. I'd be suprised if all forums ammounted to more then 40% of all DBD players.
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Appealing to the 3rd party software rule is a complete waste of time and keystrokes. Every game under the sun has some variation of that rule and it's obvious that it's "rule speak" for stuff like aimbots, wallhacks or anything like that. It's just assumed that using VOIP applications to talk to other people (including the ones you're playing with) is allowed in multiplayer games, same reason the apps are usually absent from anti-cheat whitelists because making them forbidden is considered as absurd as making it against the rules to run a media player in the background to listen to music or something.
Penalizing people doesn't work, but bonus BP and the like for killers wouldn't be any problem at all as that's the opposite of penalizing anyone. Some of those anti-SWF perks in that thread are just plain insane and assumes every SWF goes full depip death squad which is misinformed at best and straight up spreading of disinformation at worst.
I have no clue if the playerbase could sustain ranked + unranked queues. I personally wouldn't mind that if it did work without hurting queue times too badly, as I genuinely do not care about rank on either side.
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Made my day
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Make gens last longer than 3 minutes without toolboxes and 2 minutes and 20 seconds with toolboxes. It would solve being rushed. The problem with swfs is they can tell their teammates to touch a gen once they are being chased, meaning kicking is worthless and with gen times being abysmal, it's a joke with comms.
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2 different 2 Man groups enter “Hey our discord is this, join ours.” Oh look, 4 Man group suddenly. One 3 man group enters and invites the random, 4 man group.
Hell, console it takes one guy 15 seconds to invite all other randoms to a party chat. Instant 4 man group.
The numbers you’re talking about mean absolutely nothing. Sorry, try again.
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@Watery Did you even read the Steam post? How could you not see it as a problem when people who use comms admit it how much of an impact it has over the game. Yes, not every swf group is a 4 man but that doesn't mean there is no impact. Nor is that acknowledging 2 or 3 man groups.
What was suggested in the post may not be perfect but it would be refined during development and tested.
To put my own input out there, the difference in difficulty at high rank between killers and swf is significant. Killers just wanna have fun (too).
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It's not a SWF problem. It's an underpowered low map pressure killer problem. I typically don't have an issue against SWF as Spirit or Billy (I never took the time to learn Nurse). If I do lose, it's typically not because I'm losing chases. It's because because they hammer gens and get free hits and heals with MoM and Adrenaline. This is a balance problem masquerading as a SWF problem.
If you take Trapper against a SWF, your traps are all going to get disarmed and you're just an M1 killer. That's a problem with Trapper not having Oily Coil baseline or not having an Iridescent Stone effect on disarmed traps as a baseline, but it's not a SWF problem.
If you go in as the Plague and they all cleanse for the first time in unison at just before the last gen is completed, it's not necessarily a SWF problem. It's that the Plague's sickness isn't threatening enough to force a cleanse earlier.
I could go on, but I believe if all killers were balanced at a Billy and Spirit level, we wouldn't be having this discussion.
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Yes... I did read it.
I’m stating my opinion on the subject. I’m aware that some people see it that way, but look at it objectively.
Voice communication programs are not cheating. It would happen regardless; there’s nothing that the devs have on the agenda for it, since it’s a balanced feature.
All I did was ask if people have questioned whether or not it’s themselves, or they’re just blaming it on the game.
But let me be absolutely clear in saying this;
SWF doesn’t need to be changed. The solo experience should.
EDIT:Here’s Peanits data:
EDIT2: If you’ve noticed... Solo players take up fifty percent of the game.
You get two survivors around 30 percent of the time. Three survivors ten percent of the time. You get killer less than ten percent of the time.
I don’t see the point is this whole nerf SWF movement when other issues need to be handled. It’s not an exploit, the devs have a DISCORD for this game that you can make a SWF in.
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That dosen't mean it isn't a problem. I also agree the other problems are weak killers and poor map design, and both of those need to be fixed. I also think the killer should get some bonus for SWF based on the number they are playing against. And While Solo does make up the majority of the game, those stats don't show the concentration of SWF by rank, and that would be more telling to see I think.
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The problem with that is it dosen't show concentration of SWF by rank, so its a pretty useless statistic, as I can tell you there are a lot more SWF at high ranks then anywhere else, and it only gets worse as you go down in rank. I do think a lot of it could be mitigated with better map design as well as buffs to the weaker killers, and especially remove any powers that require the survivor to give it to the killer. That is just abyssmal design.
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Lol, every time somebody mentions the need for SWF to be balanced, the same two contradictory arguments for not balancing it pop up.
1) It would dramatically increase queue times by decreasing the number of players
2) SWF players are rare
These are the 2 points I always here most from anti SWF balance people, and they can't possibly both be true from a logical perspective.
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Just add 2 objective! I think everyone agree with that..
I dont want to hold M1/M2 for 3 minutes..
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Yes, because nothing is more exciting than holding down L1 or M1 on a generator for 3 minutes. What a thrilling experience.
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On the contrary; that is 100% of all players; meaning, when this data was taken, it accounted for all ranks. Saying the data itself is useless is quite arbitrary; and I just want to say that killer doesn't necessarily need to kill in order to win. Sure, at higher ranks, you can resort to nurse, but SWF is much like solo players, as they only 7-10% more than solo.
While I can understand that it's annoying to deal with traps, or setup killers, but I think an easy counter to that is easily resolved with addons.
require the survivor to give it to the killer. That is just abyssmal design.
Then, killers like Michael Myers, Hag, Trapper... and a few others would have be reworked. There's a difference from being a killer that has strengths and weaknesses, but taking away all that makes the killers feel uniform, and plain. I think some buffs could be necessary, but there's plenty of places that could go wrong. Do I want some killers buffed? Of course. But saying that I want all killers to be S Tier is near impossible with the design of this game. The rest can be fixed with perks and add-ons.
There's plenty of tools at your disposal. But, be reasonable; I don't want to be 4K'd everygame, nor do I want to face a Hillbilly level Killer everygame.
Another thing about Que's; keep SWF in a normal ranked que. The system itself does not need to be seperated, as it would make que times EXTREMELY long.
Even IF it was taken out, people would attempt to get in the same lobby. And if they didn't? They leave.
SWF is fine; it was going to happen whether the community wanted it or not. But nerfing it, while sounds great on paper, ruins the experience for other players. What if... I was a casual, trying to enjoy the game with my friends? Instantly destroyed. Boring games.
It shouldn't even matter at this point as it's been stated by the devs MULTIPLE times, that they do not have any plans for the changes of SWF.
Other more important things such as game health should be on the agenda; which is the goal for this year.
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Exactly, its for all ranks, which means it dosen't show breakdown by specific ranks. You also mentioned that removing SWF would ruin peoples experince. But I would say SWF ruins the experince for the killer. So its ok for survivors to have a good experience but not a killer? That seems pretty typical of the logic presented to keep SWF around.
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There’s a difference between killer not playing around a SWF, and a killer who will.
Just because it seems unfun now doesn’t necessarily mean you can’t work around it; but that possibility doesn’t seem to exist, for some reason. You can do plenty of things to counter SWF, because at the end of the day, if you haven’t picked up on them, that’s a you problem.
Mad Grit for Bodyblocking.
Hangman’s Trick for Sabo.
Thrilling Tremors for gen tracking AND slowing down game.
Corrupt Intervention for blocking of generators.
BBQ&C to get into chases faster.
Enduring to reduce pallet stuns.
Spirit Fury to remove pallets in general.
Lightborn or looking at a wall to counter flashlights.
Agitation for getting to hooks faster.
Thanatophobia for slowing the game down.
Bloodlust to get hits.
Iron-Maiden for counter lockers.
Bamboozle to cut off window vaults.
Rancor for a free Mori and tracking.
You have all the tools at your disposal to handle SWF.
But if you get...
- Ran around all game.
- Looped.
- Flash-light blinded.
- can’t make a hook due to body block
It’s not their fault for doing such; but it’s your duty as the killer to work around it.
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You honestly think that is "fun" for the killer to do though? Especially when you consider that the standard AND optimal perk set for killer almost always includes BBQ and Ruin/Thana anyway? Killers don't have enough perk slots to commit to 'working around it'.
SWF is a problem, and one of the few ways around it is for the killer to given a buff before the match begins to accommodate for the survivors' obvious use of comms during the match. Nerfing the Nurse with a new rework is only going to make this matter even worse (more frequent looping, more loops being added to maps, no ability to stop the loop for most killers bar Nurse).
Even Killers in red ranks are tired of having to do the same thing with the same killers game in, game out. Suggesting these perks sounds like nothing more than a cheap 'GiT GuD' comment from a hard survivor main to me, and I mainly play Survivor myself now due to how annoying it is to play Killer.
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Lmao, I love how you started making a list about stuff you could do to counter swf playstyle problems, but only managed to get one, but kept making a list countering the general survivor playstyle as if nobody would notice.
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they have fog whisperers who stream dbd while doing voice comms in swf. they have proof of those guys doing it so why arent they banned? probably because it isnt cheating
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Lots of them dc too and they are not banned.
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Sure, let me just equip all those perks. Oh wait, I only have 4 slots, not 12. There is no “playing around it.” You just have to hope they screw up enough that’s all their advantages aren’t enough to save their asses.
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I just feel like there’s ways to go around it though.
I get that SWF is annoying but the reason why I resorted to that data is because there’s different ways to look at it— but, I just wanted to say that it may not be the SWF’s fault; that’s all. I feel as if the changes aren’t necessary since you only encounter a certain survive with friends a certain percent of time; but I can understand your frustration. The only reason I think SWF nerfs aren’t necessary is purely due to the fact that they’re pretty rare; and what’s more, you can play around them. I didn’t really consider the user experience in the matter, and for that I apologize.
For the most part, I just don’t... get the frustration, really. That’s all. I don’t see the point in changing something that can be worked around; I want the solo experience to be prioritized, rather. And with the frequency to the complaints of these SWF post, maybe there is some validity to them. I apologize for any frustration I may have caused; it was just me being rash.
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I honestly think being able to know beforehand you're facing a game with premades but having bonus% bloodpoints for killer would solve most of the problem.
I'd play a 4man in a heartbeat if I got extra bloodpoints, especially because I know the average SWF (90% of them) is just friends messing around and sometimes sandbagging the others. The 10% extra sweaty ones don't bother me that much.
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I'll just drop this here
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Eyy lmao it's hilarious how relevant my post continues to be despite being almost 2 years old. It has the most comments out of anything the community has posted, be it forums or Reddit, yet the devs just don't care.
I have presented my post both to the creative director, Dave Richard, and personally had a one-on-one with @not_Queen over it (love our conversations btw), however, they have made it clear their intentions are to never touch SWF in terms of balance, no matter how much it goes against their original vision and idea that "you aren't supposed to have much information."
I get it, people want to play with their friends. But I'm sorry, balance of the game is more important than people's desire to have fun with friends. The overall health of the game is what is most important, which is why a Ranked and Casual mode are honestly essential to this game.
And to the people that say this game doesn't have the population, when is it ever going to be enough? The game averages around 15k to 30k players. How is that not enough? When will it be enough? 40k? 50k? 100k?
I can tell you right now, if the devs actually focused on making GOOD Killers, fixing the bad ones, and correcting the balance issues SWF presents, this game's population would only benefit from it.
Yknow that 70k it reached during the free weekend? The other 50k likely realized how absolutely tragic the game's balance actually is and ran away. The game is now fluctuating back to around 10k playerbase recently, solely because player's are finally waking up to the nonsense BHVR is doing. Players don't want to return to the game, myself including.
I'm a solo survivor. SWF directly makes my games less fun but no one seems to care about what a solo player thinks. It's absurd how much they cater to the people that don't care about balance. I would dump so many hours into this game if I could just play it the way I did back before SWF was ever made: solitary, alone, with my teammates in the same scenario. No game plans or meta strategies. Just you, your wit, and your opportunities to assist other Survivors. When people perform feats they could never perform knowing information they shouldn't know, it absolutely kills the game.
This game is so sad man, and I still love it. But I cannot play it anymore.
BHVR is afraid of taking risks. That's all this is.
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More salt. It's getting sad.
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Basically what my friends and I are talking about while playing, and the occasionally scream from a jumpscare in which the killer pulled off.
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You make SWF not ranked you are gonna have a bad time waiting at rank 1. I think most people are there
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I like the specialized perks for SWF idea. It sounds fun.
But I don't think it will work because 3-man and 2-man SWF exists. A 2-man SWF with 2 solos aren't nearly as effective as a 4-man, and doesn't hold a handle to a tryhard squadette.
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Half the lobbies are solo, but SWF have a much higher chance of survival than full solo group.Why do people never look at the stats in a complete manner?
SWFs have a high rate of surviving that scales with the amount of players in the swf. Now if you're working with a a proper team that should be what happens. The issues is that the game doesn't handle that sort of situation well. To that moderate amount of players who are in SWFs skew the game in noticeable way. It also tends to be bad for solo survivors as well as killers. Solo survivors sort of roll the dice on whether the people with them are actually going to help them and killers aren't really designed with having to deal with high levels of coordination between players.
Killers are limited in their responses and by default don't have the ability to break up coordinated teams in a short amount of time. Now the other side of the coin is that SWF has been a part of the game for a very long time and it isn't going anywhere. There is also no way for the devs to see whose going to be on comms and know what is being said. You can't dictate rules you can't enforce so that isn't changing.
So the question is what can be done in game to either bring solo players up or soften swf player advantage enough that the teams are on near equal footing with the solo players.
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If they nerf SWF they kill the game.
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It doesn't have a high rate of survival. The data shows this. Even if you tried to rationalize the data, SWF would be concentrated only to the highest ranks and still be an even smaller percentage of the playerbase. We're talking about 1-2% of games here. Unless you'd like to imagine that half of 4-man SWF are automatically invincible squadettes.
The real discussion point is the actual prevalence of SWF and how much difference it makes.
If the case is true that SWF supposedly has skyrocket survival rates at high rank, and that high rank is dominated by SWF, does it really make sense that we get so much anecdotal data from people of all ranks (20-5) claiming SWF's advantage? How much of this problem is reality and how much is rooted in perception?
Is it worth it for BHVR to potentially disrupt the status quo to address a problem that influences potentially 1% of all games?
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I assume you think that only Killers want this change.
You'd be silly to make such an assumption.
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People are upvoting that thread basically as a protest now. And honestly to vent a little sometimes. I know I'm one of them lol.
But I don't think anything will come out of it. The devs had plenty of time to work on something and they chose not to. At least we're getting small changes over the years. Remember when exhaustion regen'd while running? Good times.
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So basically you're saying you're just "assuming" all these SWFs are actually communicating, you don't have any actual "proof" they are.
<rolls eyes>
There are people who are literally streaming their communication live and upload it to YouTube, devs can see this just fine, but they don't ban them.
Maybe because it's actually gasp fine and the way the game is now, intended?
The problem here is that there are so many killer mains who make up their own rules on how the game should be played, when BHVR has consistently shown that it's fine.
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Just like when they showed the stats behind how many "people" run Self Care, this seems misrepresented.
Like, we are gauging the percentage of all players that play in queue sizes? You know that entire 50% probably plays with at least one friend at some point?
A better gauge would be to see how many LOBBIES are filled with each kind of player. This makes it almost seem like most matches have all solo players, which I just find hard to believe.
Of course, they give us the info as obscure as possible so that the echo chamber will keep going.
Besides, didn't like 2 years ago they said only 30% of players are solo players? Suddenly 20% more decided to drop all their friends?
What?
Besides, even just a two man squad upsets the balance, doesnt matter how little it actually happens. It still happens.
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Just add Bond, Empathy, and Kindred as base Survivor perks
/end of thread full of crybaby killah mainz
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Yet even with that upset balance the global survival rate is still below 50%.
Clearly more killer nerfing needs to be done.
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It's an assymetrical horror game, say it with me now ASYMMETRICAL
A-S-Y-M-M-E-T-R-I-C-A-L
If anything, given this games lack of experienced survivors. I'd say the kill rate is too low :D
Which is probably why they're looking at nerfing pallet looping.
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Cool. So 4 man swf is the super minority. Lets limit swf to duo then. That will appease the killer community, and impact the smallest amount of survivors
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