Nerf SWF completely.
Why not just nerf SWF completely? That's where most the toxicity comes from anyways. The game is supposed to be hard. Why let people communicate with each other, team up, bully and torment the killer, and have an upper hand the entire match? One step away from turning into Friday the 13th...
Answers
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How can you nerf swf? Make them all use no mither?
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A majority of survivors are perfectly comfortable being extremely toxic all on their own.
SWF groups are bad, but they aren't the source of it. They just exacerbate it.
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I don't need nerfs to them to destroy SWF groups.
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it needs removed completely.
game was NEVER designed fo it and was NEVER balanced for it.
every killer would be nurse levels of OP if they balanced the game round SWF, pretty sure noone wants every killer to be nurse levels of strong
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It's way more complicated than it seems. Not all groups are super coordinated and trying to win as fast as possible, most are just a couple friends hanging out and chatting while they play a game. How would you suggest doing so in a way that would unnecessarily punish the casual groups that are not trying as hard as possible to win? And how could that not be avoided by queuing solo at the same time as your friends?
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Behavior's philosophy of trying to balance against low skill gameplay instead of optimal gameplay really isn't the best of ideas. It's one of very few companies that believes competitive balance shouldn't be done around skill.
Honestly, if they're truly playing casually, then should winning even matter for them? And if winning does matter that much, are they actually playing casually? Why should somebody who's not really trying have an equal chance of winning against somebody who is?
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You can't stop people from playing with friends.
I think BE has the right approach of buffing Solo players as much as they can so they can be free to adjust the killer's to compensate as needed. (But god they are taking forever on this front!)
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I couldn't be a DEV here because I would just make an announcement that any thread like this be closed immediately. You can't take out a game mode where casual friends just wanna hop on a game together and play. Sometimes, I don't even USE discord and we group up with no voice comms.
It's people forget what FUN and FRIENDS are and they just want to whine because they can't completely dominate the opposition with ease. It's a game. If one or two people get away, let it be. Live a little
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you are a low killer tier?
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You should never punish players for wanting to play in groups.
The better way would be to add a lobby UI to show killers (and solo survivors) who's in a SWF and with who and then REWARD killers (and solo survivors) for playing together with these SWFs.
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Unless playing in a KYF mode, most killers don't have the option to just "hang out and chat" with friends while playing this game. So instead, they try hard to win. And they are forced to play against people who, like you said, aren't even trying hard to win. You seem to be saying that people with similar skill levels, with one side trying their hardest to win, and the other side not even focused on the game, but "just hanging out and chatting" - that they should both have an equal chance to win. Does Behaviour honestly believe that is a fair balancing philosophy to follow by?
And how could that not be avoided by queuing solo at the same time as your friends?
Have a separate mode for SWF. I would change the solo mode lobby a little bit so that it is individualized - so in this new lobby, the survivors can't see the other survivors (or their usernames.) Stagnate the initiation of the load-in to the maps (though they will all arrive at the same time.) The UI for the survivors' names are replaced with numbers or letters. If these types of people DCs once they load onto the map and find that they are on different maps, and they do this often (and most likely they would have to), then they will be banned from the game as usual, especially after the dedicated server come into play.
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Yes there are some people that want to play casually with their friends but isn't that what kill your friends is for? My personal experience has been that 90% of SWF have been on toxicity overload when they realise how much of an advantage they have in the game. Could the devs not lock SWF behind a higher rank so there isn't 1 low rank player hosting for 3 high rank players.
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Queuing solo at the same time is kinda just an unfortunate limitation that I don't think really has an answer. As for the rest of it, I think the answer starts with the devs figuring out whether they want to balance the game around SWF or around solo Survivors.
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The easiest way to solve all of this is to balance around SWF and make it so solo queue players have options such as voice chat to perform nearly as well as SWF. That is the best suggestion I can give for the problem that is in the realm of possibility for your balance team. To do this, you need to also hire some experienced players to help give thoughts on how new content will affect the game. I hope that feedback is helpful @Peanits . Much love for you team for trying to balance even though I may disagree with how you all go about it.
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Ah #########, here we go again.
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Maybe thats down to the mentality of a portion of the players that see DBD as a highly competative game.
It does seem the devs see it more of a casual fun experience instead, this tends to be true giving the way they are trying to force people to play which is far from competative along with the endless blood point grind.
In reality if they wanted to make it a highly competative game they should reward killing faster and doing gens/getting out a lot more.
Right now the game rewards playing around in terms of pips and bloodpoints where killing or dying isn't necessary for the latter.
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If you want anything else than either the often mentioned buff solos -> buff killers that need it approach or bonuses to the killer (like extra bloodpoints and such) please just do yourself a favor and find another game to play. You're just gonna keep getting frustrated at something that won't change the way you want it to, punishing people for playing with friends is an awful idea.
DBD isn't an esports title pursuing "perfect" balance, and it shouldn't be. Some games there's SWF, some games there's instaheals or whatever. Some games it's a perkless Freddy, some games it's a 4000 hour nurse with omegablink + ebony mori. It's just how the game is.
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Nope.
Buff low tier killers. Make an optional voice chat. Improve the game's HUD.
Plenty of ways to balance the game without cucking half the playerbase.
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Small buffs to situational awareness would go a long way for bridging the gap between solo and SWF IMO, like having the entity claws around the obsession twitch while their getting chased, good change.
Something to help solo survivors on the hook without needing to run kindred. Maybe show the aura of the closest survivor to the hook and notify that survivor that he is the closest by default, then buff kindred in some other way.
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My biggest problem with this game has always been the toxicity in it. It could be coming from both killers and survivors. But over the last year the toxicity seems to be coming more and more from SWF who can stack top tier items, perks and the ability to coordinate. They are not just using it to win but to bully and a spread toxicity both in game and out. My time spent playing the game is getting less and less and my breaks are getting longer just to get away from it. Like i said not limited to SWF but they seem to be the main source in my opinion
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Most people that do SWF are not kill team squads that just want to bully you into oblivion most just want to have fun. As for the game turning into Friday The 13th the game died and if you had trouble as Jason then it was a skill problem.
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There's so much confirmation bias with people who want to eliminate or nerf SWF. You don't know you played against most SWF, and you don't remember the SWF who weren't toxic. Unlimited second chances and perk synergies are the balance problem, not comms.
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^this I have been called SWF when all four of us were solos it's not that easy to tell when someone is in a SWF all 4 can join at the same time and still be solos
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I get the idea that not everyone is like that but again not what i have seen. One of the last games i played everyone dropped an offering with mine being BPS and every survivor i tried to chase ran to the infinite looping area of the map.Then proceeded to follow me around the map to taunt me and running back to the loop point if i gave chase. When i was lucky enough to down someone i was met by 3 body blockers with pre-nerfed MoM. I think i barely got 5000 bloodpoints with BPS and the taunted in the messages. I had so many similar situations like that already in 2 days i gave up playing.
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Exactly. Put it this way, the 4 man SWF I play with has never been accused of being SWF. We're mostly not even paying attention to what's going on in the game. It doesn't matter if survivors are all solo or SWF, 4x Adrenaline and multiple instaheals breaks the game either way.
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So it's a larger problem at whole that needs to be sorted out. I don't think SWF should be removed or nerf but you go from 1 person being toxic to 4 people being toxic since the rest tend to join in, and i wish they could fix that.
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You wish they could fix that most people suck and and are mostly just followers that will join in on something even if it's dumb or wrong just because the friends are doing it?
Me too yo, me too! :)
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Change it so, that vs swf is fun for killers, so they seek them out.
Raise MS 3-5% for killers as example, so they get a better map pressure so they battle the coordinations or trigger Bloodlust faster and lasting longer.
Free Corrupt Intervention to buy the killer some time?
Or let them flash all survivors aura by standing still for 3-6s but your aura gets revealed too.
Faster window blocks?
Free Mori on the last hook for the fun and looks cool for both parties.
If it gets too tunnels just give them BT.
There are plenty of ways with the existing mechanics that can make facing a SWF exciting.
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Ea, Bethesda and several others would like to tell you about how they are big titles and skill<paytowin they are big titles and if microtransactions balance around the pros then that's a new one. Not saying it's right but most big titles do it.
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As long as we have this level of randomness and poor map design, DBD cannot be considered a competitive game, period.
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It just seems that there's a lot of people de-pipping on purpose to stay at low ranks because they suck at high rank and most of them have the best perks, loadouts, and run in SWF groups. If your new to the game as a killer, what chance do you have against players like that or how can it possibly be fun to play? I also play on PS4, dunno if it's just worse there or what. I've tried to get a few of my friends into it but all they say is its way to hard playing as killer and isn't fun. They just get bullied, generators are done in 5mins tops, and they tease and taunt them at the exit gates. I also hate how hex ruin is a MUST with any killer. It's hard to get that perk for everyone on level 3. New killers have zero chance and that's a BIG problem for newer players, especially with these toxic SWF groups. They literally make people not want to play.
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What an idiotic post for a discussion.
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You remove SWF a lot of people will stop playing. Then people will lobby dodge to match with friends and a few will probably just play killer. If you think the wait times were bad in the double BP just wait till that starts.
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How?
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The only thing that needs to happen is proper match making and ranking.
People who win, go up in rank. People who lose, go down. Easy as pie. This ridiculous emblem system needs to be junked. Completing emblem objectives should award blood points, and that's it. No rank pipping nonsense.
If you win, you rank up. If you lose, you rank down. That's what RANKINGS are for they separate people on the basis of skill.
This is so simple and everyone from chess to chinese garter does it.
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This is not true, there are tons of developers who balance around the majority of players rather than the top.
The ones that are interested in promoting an eSports scene tend to balance around the to, but not all of them do.
For instance, Overwatch balances around the Gold and Platinum ranks, not the GM ranks. And there are enough options in the game that you can find strong play and options at all ranks.
Saying that the only way to balance is by balancing around the top is ridiculous. This game will run out of survivors fast if you balance around the top. Since it's an asymmetric game, balance problems are exacerbated and it's naturally harder than balancing games with equal opportunity play. This community isn't going to be able to handhold newbies just like that. This game is too harsh.
The design of the game is simply too frustrating. You cannot throw newbies to the wolves in this game like you could in say Counterstrike or even DOTA. In those games you can still have a good time even if you are losing because of the way the game is designed. DOTA has buffers to keep you from getting steamrolled in seconds. CS games are short and sweet and you're back in the action in no time.
But in DBD if you slip up for a second against a superior killer you are on the hook and probably in for a bad night for a couple of minutes. If you're a killer up against superior survivors you're gonna be in for 4 minutes or more of frustration.
You can't balance this game ignoring the lower ranks. There won't be any players left if you do.
8 -
Can I get an amen?
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Since when have devs showed they even care about the imbalance swf brings?
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Why nerf them? Just increase killer BP gain depending on whether they went against SWF. People have been saying this for, at the bare minimum, months. Or heck, give solo queue survivors a BP multiplier, since they have a worse experience than SWF.
I have to admit, it's kinda disappointing that it seems like you guys typically only respond to the stuff that obviously isn't workable, and don't really communicate with the community about the things that have less obvious issues. I understand it would affect the BP economy, but is that so tight of a market that adjustments like these can't be tested?
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This is a fallacy a lot of people like to spread.
People like to pretend that games like DOTA are only balanced around the pros. This is hogwash. There are heroes that are balanced for pro level -- they reward skilled play with a very high skill ceiling. Then there are heroes that are balanced around casual play. They have low skill floors but they also have low skill ceilings. So there are heroes that casuals can play and heroes that pros can play.
And it's all balanced out by a proper ranking system that lets newbs and bad players stay at the bottom, and good players and pros rise to the top.
Moreover, since it's a symmetrical game, the balance is different from an asymmetrical game like DBD. You simply cannot compare apples to orange.
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How about we separate swf survivor into a separate lobby. But lobbies will take longer and no killer will actually choose to face an swf team.
How about we nerf survivors. But lower ranks will get completely destroyed which makes up most of your fan base.
How about we have the option to dodge certain players who we know are in a swf. But then lobbies will take too long, which people will also complain about.
How about we remove the hud for the swf team since they are on comms. But not all survivor teams use comms therefore they would be better punished while gaining no new information.
How about we give the killers more Bloodpoints depending on the amount of players in a swf. Probably the best solution to the problem.
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This is one area where I do not expect much action from the devs.
SWFs are a large part of the community, and I don't see them penalizing such groups (even tho they absolutely need it).
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Aehm and u can see many issues in overwatch. There is a very strict meta.
I bought the game and played quiet a lot. Then i realised that the meta includes 3 tanks and 2 heals...
So basicly this is the ways you, if you decide to balance around mediocre players...
Dunno if this is the current state, but my entire freindlist quitted overwatch so far. Every high ranked player I asked why he quitted told me that high rank sux and meta destroys this game.
So basicly I really don't think that balancing on mediocre player is the way to go. When you play the game often and have fun with it, you will reach the unbalanced area pretty fast and this is no fun.
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Honestly, that's a problem of the player, not the balance or the devs.
Pretty funny when Crash Team Racing is balanced around the 1% but DbD isn't. Some 8 year old kid that bought this game for their Bday is gonna get throttled by anyone that played it 20 years ago, such as myself.
If they quit, that's their problem. That's not the devs problem. It's like people who quit fighting games because they are "too hard" or "people are too good." There is only ONE way to get better at a game:
To get throttled by someone better than you.
Any game that actually cares about their balance will do so around higher level players. Overwatch has a pretty flimsy balance so using it as an example is pretty weird. They rework and change characters all the time in that game because the balance is so outta whack. The only time OW is interesting is when the League starts. Actually, this sorta proves that not balancing around top players can upset the balance (stun meta is a VERY low skill meta that is disgustingly effective for hardly any risk).
Whether it is asymmetrical or not is irrelevant, you must balance your game around higher skilled players, or else there is nothing for players to improve upon skill wise. When you artificially cap the ceiling so low just for the noobs, it dampens the experience at the high end and allows for broken nonsense to permeate as standard play.
There's nothing wrong with the game being this punishing. Fighting games are extremely punishing to new players, and there isn't really much in the way of hand holding when it comes to playing against other people. You're either are better or worse, there is no in between.
I'm not saying DbD should be that black and white, but to NOT balance this game around the high end is just a mistake.
If people will quit the game because they are unable to improve their own skill, that isn't the developers fault, that's the players fault. Keeping the game dumbed down to this level is what makes the balance so outta whack in the first place.
I would also like to point out your "low ceiling and floor" argument is pretty bad. Just because a character is easier to use does not mean they are worse at a pro level. A game should always strive for low floors and high ceilings, such as Ryu from Street Fighter. Even a character that has a lower ceiling, say Zangief, is still a monstrous threat that even the most skilled of players fear. Because a good Gief will end your day in seconds, you don't need to play Akuma to win tournaments.
The fact you NEED Nurse or similar Killers to win at a high level is bad balance. Everything should be viable at the highest level in this game.
Hell, even Shao Kahn in MK11, a bottom tier character, has still won several tournaments because MK11 is actually balanced fairly well.
Having a good balance isn't a genre exclusive thing. Being asymmetric, that's even more reason to be balanced around the high level, so that higher end players can't abuse the lower end, as it currently stands.
Idk why you use noobs going against pros as a valid excuse when that happens every day in this game anyway.
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@Dehitay I would suggest knowing your genre before suggesting their balance philosophy is off. This is a casual party game. It is not a hardcore competitive game. This game is meant to be played by friends and people who love the horror genre. You don't balance such a game around the small group of hardcore competitive players.
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Without SWF a good bunch of players would have already left the game and the killer queues would be even longer
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So fun for killers does not matter at all? Casual or not, SWF is still a problem, especially at the high ranks and red ranks. See, your logic thought is that the way you describe SWF sometimes applies across all ranks 20-1, but that is not the case, when it starts to hit the high mid ranks and red ranks, its all about the sweat and wanting to win, there is no causal SWF people in the high ranks, that only exist in the low ranks cause they don't know how to play at all. It gets even worse when they start to stress you out and causes you to start tilting and it just causes to feed their ego because they think they are good, and to make it even worse, is when they start to bring in items that are broken COUGH insta heals COUGH, and map offerings to choose one of the few broken survivor sided maps you guys created because you guys don't know how to make a good balance map at all, if anything, you guys don't even play your own game to understand the struggle for killer almost 90% of the time when they play. If anything, SWF should be change to SWAF, a duo, not a full on 4 man communication advantage and lets bully every single killer and DC to those that do better then us, and did I mention yet that SWF does not promote skills at all? Or most of the time? Since, doing SWF most of the time, you are being carried? And when they do solo for the first time they are garbage because they don't have their baby bottle microphones to help them and all the "skills" they had was just because they were getting carried? And that ends up them complaining to you guys about how X needs a nerf and you guys listen to them? So, are you still gonna think SWF is not a problem? Or do you still want to continue it and not do anything about and not promote real skills?
Also, "casual" SWF at high mid ranks and red ranks is still just as bad as regular sweaty SWF, but I guess to you that is not a problem and fun for killer players does not matter most of the time. So there is nothing complicated about it, its just you don't care enough to look deeper into it.
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Really? I keep waiting 10+ minutes to even get a lobby-match and then another 10+ minutes can pass before the lobby is full, almost as if there being a surplus of killers and drought of survivors is not really what is happening.
If not for SWF, a lot more killers would have stayed and DbD needs them more, especially as playing the role is always asking to be kicked in the groin.
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This game is just only for casuals.
The games is PERFECT BALANCED on low ranks.
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