The argument in favor of Leatherface moving at full speed while revving his saw

IronWolf115

So this subject has both lovers and haters I feel. There are arguments in favor of this to make Leatherface more viable and be able to perform mindgames at pallets. The other side to this is that Leatherface could then just rev his saw infinitely until he gets to a survivor.

I am creating this as a discussion for both people in favor of this buff, and people against it to discuss why they share this view.

I will start by saying I am 100% in favor of this buff idea because Hillbilly already keeps more speed than LF whilst revving his chainsaw, so LF being able to do this a bit better than Hillbilly would make more sense. Plus as I mentioned this would also allow for mindgame opportunities around loops, making LF again, more viable.

I made a post about a complete rework of his add-ons, so if you are interested in LF changes, please see that:

https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/7011/complete-rework-of-leatherface-add-ons-list-all-add-ons#latest

Ok, so now I leave the discussion to you guys, and of course keep it civil this is all in the interest of a more fun experience for everyone.

shadowsfall42

I don't think it should be full speed, I feel like that would be a bit much, like you said, it would be easy to rev infinitely until you come across a survivor. In a lot of situations, it would be kinda like having NOED at all stages of the game, except it doesn't have the drawback of survivors being able to get rid of it.

But I think that it's the right direction. I didn't actually know Billy was faster while charging than Leatherface. In that case, perhaps switch Billy and LF charging move speed? Billy doesn't really need it, and it would help out LF. 

Alternatively bring Leatherfaces MS while charging up to match Billy, or at least higher than it is. 

mintchapstick

Sure, he can get a speed buff--but only if you take away his 10 hour long chainsaw animation & his ability to hit everything around him in a wide circle while he's in it. Otherwise, not so much.

ASpazNamedSteve

I am in favour of it, but I do worry that he'll have almost no reason to not be holding his power down at all times. Should be a bit more strategic than that if that became the case, like maybe making it just a tad slower than 100% speed.

I appreciate your ongoing love for a generally unloved killer

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IronWolf115

@shadowsfall42 said:
I don't think it should be full speed, I feel like that would be a bit much, like you said, it would be easy to rev infinitely until you come across a survivor. In a lot of situations, it would be kinda like having NOED at all stages of the game, except it doesn't have the drawback of survivors being able to get rid of it.

But I think that it's the right direction. I didn't actually know Billy was faster while charging than Leatherface. In that case, perhaps switch Billy and LF charging move speed? Billy doesn't really need it, and it would help out LF. 

Alternatively bring Leatherfaces MS while charging up to match Billy, or at least higher than it is. 

Yeah I mean in and ideal world, leatherface could stay at the speed that he revvs at right now, but I feel the payoff then should be better which then leads me to another buff that I am sure we can all get on board with, his acceleration. Right now his acceleration is abysmal it barely launches him forward, so if that got buffed then at least you would have more confidence in being able to hit a survivor once you have gone through the revving animation

IronWolf115

@mintchapstick said:
Sure, he can get a speed buff--but only if you take away his 10 hour long chainsaw animation & his ability to hit everything around him in a wide circle while he's in it. Otherwise, not so much.

Well to be honest that simply isn't enough to make leatherface viable. His chainsaw is extremely slow and clunky compared to HillBilly's and his ability to hit multiple survivors only becomes a factor when he is camping, which is what I am trying to steer away from

IronWolf115

@Hillbilly420 said:
He should be exactly like Billy in that when he revs he still maintains his momentum for a second. The problem is that he doesn't launch forwards like Billy when his saw is ready so the solution is to adjust it so when he revs he keeps his momentum for 2 seconds instead of just one. 2 seconds is roughly the amount of time for him to get the saw ready when using the best add-ons and Tinkerer.

I can get on board with this, after all if you are using LF correctly you should be right on their tail when you rev the saw. This idea would benefit Leatherface more than it sounds

IronWolf115

@ASpazNamedSteve said:
I am in favour of it, but I do worry that he'll have almost no reason to not be holding his power down at all times. Should be a bit more strategic than that if that became the case, like maybe making it just a tad slower than 100% speed.

I appreciate your ongoing love for a generally unloved killer

Yes I do agree I really am just trying to find even ground where both LF players, and survivors would be happy.

Thank you BTW for the appreciation, I really just think that LF could be so much more but right now he just feels clunky and lazily designed IMO.

IronWolf115

Something I should also ask is what do you guys want for LF buffs. Rather than just responding to my ideas obviously you have the freedom to let your voice be heard!

mintchapstick

@IronWolf115 said:
Well to be honest that simply isn't enough to make leatherface viable. His chainsaw is extremely slow and clunky compared to HillBilly's and his ability to hit multiple survivors only becomes a factor when he is camping, which is what I am trying to steer away from

You say, 'slow and clunky', but from a survivor POV, I'd rather go against the hillbilly than LF, because LF's chainsaw just pings right off of objects and he keeps going, and there's no ability to double back on yourself as a dodge, and for some reason whenever I play against an LF he'll be like ten feet away from me but his chainsaw attack is still wildly slashing enough area to somehow find my hitbox.

More speed on top of that would really suck to play with. and not in a challenging way.

IronWolf115

@mintchapstick said:

@IronWolf115 said:
Well to be honest that simply isn't enough to make leatherface viable. His chainsaw is extremely slow and clunky compared to HillBilly's and his ability to hit multiple survivors only becomes a factor when he is camping, which is what I am trying to steer away from

You say, 'slow and clunky', but from a survivor POV, I'd rather go against the hillbilly than LF, because LF's chainsaw just pings right off of objects and he keeps going, and there's no ability to double back on yourself as a dodge, and for some reason whenever I play against an LF he'll be like ten feet away from me but his chainsaw attack is still wildly slashing enough area to somehow find my hitbox.

More speed on top of that would really suck to play with. and not in a challenging way.

He actually can barely move during his tantrum ( when he bumps ) whereas hillbilly has a much quicker recovery and tbh the range of his chainsaw sounds like latency issues. You have to remember Leatherface is one of the worst killers in the game for map pressure so his payoff needs to be a powerful close range game

mintchapstick

@IronWolf115 said:
He actually can barely move during his tantrum ( when he bumps ) whereas hillbilly has a much quicker recovery and tbh the range of his chainsaw sounds like latency issues. You have to remember Leatherface is one of the worst killers in the game for map pressure so his payoff needs to be a powerful close range game

It could be latency issues, you're right, but it happens to me every time I go against a LF and I sincerely hate it. I guess it's probably like the windows where you're like a foot through them & suddenly you're grabbed by the killer and its like, 'wow BS.'

Anyway, it just sucks because it's a massively wide area even without latency issues & the chainsaw attack lasts so long that it's hard to get away from it sometimes, if that makes sense? Like, it seems like a fair trade off, because he's slower than the hillbilly but his attack range is so wide and goes on forever and you can only run forward instead of juking and it still will usually somehow get you. & are you sure that's true about the recovery time? Because usually when he attacks his chainsaw just keeps going even when he smacks into something. Idk, I have him, I should probably try it sometime and see.

Also this is picky and doesn't actually contribute to the discussion, but canonically he was kind of dumb and clunky with his chainsaw, so that might be actually be a factor in his character design.

IronWolf115

@mintchapstick said:

@IronWolf115 said:
He actually can barely move during his tantrum ( when he bumps ) whereas hillbilly has a much quicker recovery and tbh the range of his chainsaw sounds like latency issues. You have to remember Leatherface is one of the worst killers in the game for map pressure so his payoff needs to be a powerful close range game

It could be latency issues, you're right, but it happens to me every time I go against a LF and I sincerely hate it. I guess it's probably like the windows where you're like a foot through them & suddenly you're grabbed by the killer and its like, 'wow BS.'

Anyway, it just sucks because it's a massively wide area even without latency issues & the chainsaw attack lasts so long that it's hard to get away from it sometimes, if that makes sense? Like, it seems like a fair trade off, because he's slower than the hillbilly but his attack range is so wide and goes on forever and you can only run forward instead of juking and it still will usually somehow get you. & are you sure that's true about the recovery time? Because usually when he attacks his chainsaw just keeps going even when he smacks into something. Idk, I have him, I should probably try it sometime and see.

Also this is picky and doesn't actually contribute to the discussion, but canonically he was kind of dumb and clunky with his chainsaw, so that might be actually be a factor in his character design.

Yeah I understand your frustrations so don't worry i'm not arguing with you there. And yes as a Leatherface main myself you move incredibly slow during your tantrum stage. The issue with LF is that as I say he has no map pressure and maybe the case is more that his trade-off for that just doesnt feel enough. If they gave him something to help his overall speed to apply pressure then maybe chainsaw buffs wouldn't be as necessary but just right now he is not in a good place.

mintchapstick

@IronWolf115 said:
Yeah I understand your frustrations so don't worry i'm not arguing with you there. And yes as a Leatherface main myself you move incredibly slow during your tantrum stage. The issue with LF is that as I say he has no map pressure and maybe the case is more that his trade-off for that just doesnt feel enough. If they gave him something to help his overall speed to apply pressure then maybe chainsaw buffs wouldn't be as necessary but just right now he is not in a good place.

Hmm, yeah, I see what you mean. We're not really disagreeing, so much as we're focusing on different aspects. I get the map pressure issue, it's just the thoughts of even worse chases running through my head that's distracting me. I'm not really sure how anyone would balance the two fairly, I suppose. I did look at your linked thread, but I didn't love it.

shadowsfall42

IronWolf115 said:

@shadowsfall42 said:
I don't think it should be full speed, I feel like that would be a bit much, like you said, it would be easy to rev infinitely until you come across a survivor. In a lot of situations, it would be kinda like having NOED at all stages of the game, except it doesn't have the drawback of survivors being able to get rid of it.

But I think that it's the right direction. I didn't actually know Billy was faster while charging than Leatherface. In that case, perhaps switch Billy and LF charging move speed? Billy doesn't really need it, and it would help out LF. 

Alternatively bring Leatherfaces MS while charging up to match Billy, or at least higher than it is. 

Yeah I mean in and ideal world, leatherface could stay at the speed that he revvs at right now, but I feel the payoff then should be better which then leads me to another buff that I am sure we can all get on board with, his acceleration. Right now his acceleration is abysmal it barely launches him forward, so if that got buffed then at least you would have more confidence in being able to hit a survivor once you have gone through the revving animation

Do too much and it's difficult to escape LF. Once he closes that distance, outside of pallets/windows/sprint burst, survivors aren't gonna be escaping the chainsaw. But more acceleration during the chainsaw swing could be enough to bring him up to an acceptable level without necessarily giving him too much. Perhaps if that gets increased, we take another look and see how he goes. 

Or maybe you could trade off overall movespeed (110 base speed) for a lot less move speed lost while charging chainsaw but still some lost + more acceleration (even accelerating a bit faster than base speed) while chainsawing. Making him a much bigger threat when he gets in close, in exchange for him losing a bit of map presence. Maybe reduce his terror radius a bit too. Making it a bit easier to close the distance before survivors notice and chainsaw. I'm not sure if the move speed lost would be too much for him but I would feel that it's fair if his close range becomes probably the scariest on the game. My fear with this is that it might become too frustrating to face LF as survivors and people might just end up disconnecting every time its him.

Dragonredking

I think the speed he has when reving is fine, if he kept his top speed he would just follow a survivor with his chainsaw revved until he is close enought for a guaranty down, I'd rather have him have more speed during his wild chaisaw burst or building speed faster.
It's more logical and would give him the mind game potential you are looking for without allowing people to just chase people braindeadly with his chainsaw revved

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Dragonredking

@Hillbilly420 said:

@Dragonredking said:
I think the speed he has when reving is fine,if he kept his top speed he would just follow a survivor with his chainsaw revved until he is close enought for a guaranty down, I'd rather have him have more speed during his wild chaisaw burst or building speed faster.
It's more logical and would give him the mind game potential you are looking for without allowing people to just chase people braindeadly with his chainsaw revved

Nope. You're wrong. Just straight up wrong.

The big difference aside from mobility when it comes to Billy and Leatherface is that Billy can mind game at pallets. So when he's chasing someone around a pallet spot he can bring out the saw real quick, make you think he's going for it, and force you to drop it much sooner then they usually would. When Billy brings out the saw for a moment he's not slowed down unlike Leatherface.

Leatherface cannot mind game like that at pallets because Survivors can see that he's slowing down. And because he doesn't get propelled forwards at insane speeds there's no real threat when you're looping him by a pallet.

and that why you should have read the whole ######### post before answering since I literaly suggested to increase his topspeed and a faster speed build up during his chainsaw sprint to allow him to deal with say looper without ######### giving him free pointblank chainsaw

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IronWolf115

@Dragonredking said:

@Hillbilly420 said:

@Dragonredking said:
I think the speed he has when reving is fine,if he kept his top speed he would just follow a survivor with his chainsaw revved until he is close enought for a guaranty down, I'd rather have him have more speed during his wild chaisaw burst or building speed faster.
It's more logical and would give him the mind game potential you are looking for without allowing people to just chase people braindeadly with his chainsaw revved

Nope. You're wrong. Just straight up wrong.

The big difference aside from mobility when it comes to Billy and Leatherface is that Billy can mind game at pallets. So when he's chasing someone around a pallet spot he can bring out the saw real quick, make you think he's going for it, and force you to drop it much sooner then they usually would. When Billy brings out the saw for a moment he's not slowed down unlike Leatherface.

Leatherface cannot mind game like that at pallets because Survivors can see that he's slowing down. And because he doesn't get propelled forwards at insane speeds there's no real threat when you're looping him by a pallet.

and that why you should have read the whole [BAD WORD] post before answering since I literaly suggested to increase his topspeed and a faster speed build up during his chainsaw sprint to allow him to deal with say looper without [BAD WORD] giving him free pointblank chainsaw

Well I think the issue he is pointing out there is that you want to be able to rev the saw at full speed at least for a couple of seconds so that the mind game potential around pallets becomes stronger, rather than just increasing how fast he goes during the sprint itself. This is because Billy can pull the chainsaw out without losing to much momentum around a loop and scare people into dropping a pallet earlier than they need to. Leatherface does not have this capability currently.

IronWolf115

@shadowsfall42 said:
IronWolf115 said:

@shadowsfall42 said:

I don't think it should be full speed, I feel like that would be a bit much, like you said, it would be easy to rev infinitely until you come across a survivor. In a lot of situations, it would be kinda like having NOED at all stages of the game, except it doesn't have the drawback of survivors being able to get rid of it.

But I think that it's the right direction. I didn't actually know Billy was faster while charging than Leatherface. In that case, perhaps switch Billy and LF charging move speed? Billy doesn't really need it, and it would help out LF. 

Alternatively bring Leatherfaces MS while charging up to match Billy, or at least higher than it is. 

Yeah I mean in and ideal world, leatherface could stay at the speed that he revvs at right now, but I feel the payoff then should be better which then leads me to another buff that I am sure we can all get on board with, his acceleration. Right now his acceleration is abysmal it barely launches him forward, so if that got buffed then at least you would have more confidence in being able to hit a survivor once you have gone through the revving animation

Do too much and it's difficult to escape LF. Once he closes that distance, outside of pallets/windows/sprint burst, survivors aren't gonna be escaping the chainsaw. But more acceleration during the chainsaw swing could be enough to bring him up to an acceptable level without necessarily giving him too much. Perhaps if that gets increased, we take another look and see how he goes. 

Or maybe you could trade off overall movespeed (110 base speed) for a lot less move speed lost while charging chainsaw but still some lost + more acceleration (even accelerating a bit faster than base speed) while chainsawing. Making him a much bigger threat when he gets in close, in exchange for him losing a bit of map presence. Maybe reduce his terror radius a bit too. Making it a bit easier to close the distance before survivors notice and chainsaw. I'm not sure if the move speed lost would be too much for him but I would feel that it's fair if his close range becomes probably the scariest on the game. My fear with this is that it might become too frustrating to face LF as survivors and people might just end up disconnecting every time its him.

I think though that that is the issue, it can be very difficult to close the distance, which is fine by me but I want my payoff for that to be rewarding. He SHOULD be difficult to lose once he is on your tail but right now it actually isn't that bad. This is because he slows down whilst revving the saw, losing some of his momentum he worked to get and also because of his acceleration mechanic he starts off slower than a survivor in his saw sprint and by the time he reaches max speed he barely moves faster than survivors and it only lasts about a second or two at that speed. Again I don't want him to be buffed where he is just the new Hillbilly, but I think it should be one or the other: Either give him something to make his map pressure better OR make his close range power more dominating

IronWolf115

@mintchapstick said:

@IronWolf115 said:
Yeah I understand your frustrations so don't worry i'm not arguing with you there. And yes as a Leatherface main myself you move incredibly slow during your tantrum stage. The issue with LF is that as I say he has no map pressure and maybe the case is more that his trade-off for that just doesnt feel enough. If they gave him something to help his overall speed to apply pressure then maybe chainsaw buffs wouldn't be as necessary but just right now he is not in a good place.

Hmm, yeah, I see what you mean. We're not really disagreeing, so much as we're focusing on different aspects. I get the map pressure issue, it's just the thoughts of even worse chases running through my head that's distracting me. I'm not really sure how anyone would balance the two fairly, I suppose. I did look at your linked thread, but I didn't love it.

Well that for me is what should make Billy and LF different, is that Billy has great map pressure through his sprint, while LF should have worse map pressure but more punishing at close range

IronWolf115

An idea I had for those who have concerns about him moving at full speed whilst revving the saw is that after 5 seconds of him holding the saw, he becomes fatigued similar to nurse. Him revving the saw at full speed is really an idea for around pallet loops so I DON'T want him to be able to just constantly hold the saw down

White_Owl

Giving him full speed is too much. Imo making his rev speed like the Hillbilly's (so the same as running survivors) would make his chainsaw useful in chases.
I mean, when the Hillbilly is hugging the survivor he can rev the chainsaw without loosing ground and missing such a close range attack is unlikely, I don't see how this could make LF broken. Maybe the increased chase potential could make them less likely to perpetuate the camping LF stereotype.

IronWolf115

@White_Owl said:
Giving him full speed is too much. Imo making his rev speed like the Hillbilly's (so the same as running survivors) would make his chainsaw useful in chases.
I mean, when the Hillbilly is hugging the survivor he can rev the chainsaw without loosing ground and missing such a close range attack is unlikely, I don't see how this could make LF broken. Maybe the increased chase potential could make them less likely to perpetuate the camping LF stereotype.

Yeah I could definitely reason with that as a buff that would make me happy as well as keep survivors happy. I think though if this is the buff they go for, he should get a terror radius reduction as well, agree?

shadowsfall42

IronWolf115 said:

@shadowsfall42 said:
IronWolf115 said:

@shadowsfall42 said:

I don't think it should be full speed, I feel like that would be a bit much, like you said, it would be easy to rev infinitely until you come across a survivor. In a lot of situations, it would be kinda like having NOED at all stages of the game, except it doesn't have the drawback of survivors being able to get rid of it.

But I think that it's the right direction. I didn't actually know Billy was faster while charging than Leatherface. In that case, perhaps switch Billy and LF charging move speed? Billy doesn't really need it, and it would help out LF. 

Alternatively bring Leatherfaces MS while charging up to match Billy, or at least higher than it is. 

Yeah I mean in and ideal world, leatherface could stay at the speed that he revvs at right now, but I feel the payoff then should be better which then leads me to another buff that I am sure we can all get on board with, his acceleration. Right now his acceleration is abysmal it barely launches him forward, so if that got buffed then at least you would have more confidence in being able to hit a survivor once you have gone through the revving animation

Do too much and it's difficult to escape LF. Once he closes that distance, outside of pallets/windows/sprint burst, survivors aren't gonna be escaping the chainsaw. But more acceleration during the chainsaw swing could be enough to bring him up to an acceptable level without necessarily giving him too much. Perhaps if that gets increased, we take another look and see how he goes. 

Or maybe you could trade off overall movespeed (110 base speed) for a lot less move speed lost while charging chainsaw but still some lost + more acceleration (even accelerating a bit faster than base speed) while chainsawing. Making him a much bigger threat when he gets in close, in exchange for him losing a bit of map presence. Maybe reduce his terror radius a bit too. Making it a bit easier to close the distance before survivors notice and chainsaw. I'm not sure if the move speed lost would be too much for him but I would feel that it's fair if his close range becomes probably the scariest on the game. My fear with this is that it might become too frustrating to face LF as survivors and people might just end up disconnecting every time its him.

I think though that that is the issue, it can be very difficult to close the distance, which is fine by me but I want my payoff for that to be rewarding. He SHOULD be difficult to lose once he is on your tail but right now it actually isn't that bad. This is because he slows down whilst revving the saw, losing some of his momentum he worked to get and also because of his acceleration mechanic he starts off slower than a survivor in his saw sprint and by the time he reaches max speed he barely moves faster than survivors and it only lasts about a second or two at that speed. Again I don't want him to be buffed where he is just the new Hillbilly, but I think it should be one or the other: Either give him something to make his map pressure better OR make his close range power more dominating

I think he should definitely be scarier up close over better map pressure. Billy has that on lock. 

For now though, I think it's better focus be made on the weaker killers, as I don't think LF is in dire need of buffs. But I would like to see him get some love after the lower half of the roster are brought up.

Runiver

Not even sure why he's slower than Hillbilly when he revs tbh.

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