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How have Borrowed Time and Adrenaline been allowed to remain so meta for so long
These 2 perks seem to be overly strong and used on a majority of survivors. Borrowed time definitely is the worse of the 2, but Adrenaline does have it's OP moments. It should get a similar treatment to Mettle of Man and Decisive Strike that balanced out those perks a bit.
My problem with BT is that it is abused by overly altruistic players who will unhook right in the killer's face. The risk is so little when going for a BT save that most survivors will just jump on the opportunity to rush the unhook. It gets worse when basically every player is running BT and rushes every unhook on the killer. I get how it's meant to counter camping, but it also causes a problem where I can't even leave the vicinity of the hook without having survivors rushing a hook to get a guarenteed safe unhook. For Adrenaline, my main issue is with the speed boost. 5 seconds seems to be a bit long for a speed boost, and not all people even need that boost. There are times when I'm chasing an uninjured survivor and adrenaline just flies them like 20m away from me, putting me back at where I started.
My proposed changes:
Borrowed Time should be a 1 time use. A smart survivor will know how to save their BT until the end if they want a last second escape. It will stop the excessive BT saves throughout the match where everyone is rushing the hook for a free safe unhook.
Adrenaline should have no effect on a fully healthy survivor. A healthy survivor doesn't need a speed boost the size of Texas. If they are in chase they should have a loop or another exhaustion perk to help them out. If a survivor is injured, the speed boost should be lowered to 3 seconds. They are getting healed to full, so why should they also get such distance from the killer. This also applies to survivors on hook after being unhooked. For a downed survivor, it should be the 1 health state and 5 seconds. In that case I understand the excessive speed boost.
I honestly think this could help fix some of the balance that overly favors survivors in this game. What are your thoughts?
Comments
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I don't think Borrowed Time should be a ONE time use only. Perhaps one per survivor. I get unhooked in front of the killer too many times from people WITHOUT borrowed time. Don't wanna make people use it even less.
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Borrowed Time is supposed to punish tunneling off the hook. If its such an issue for you them perhaps try not tunneling off the hook?
The reason those two are such common "meta" perks are because there are so few viable survivor perks they use what can actually help them. That said, most of their perks dont have any effect if you dont tunnel and camp so the issue seems to be on you here...
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"I honestly think this could help fix some of the balance that overly favors survivors in this game. What are your thoughts?" - BloodMoneyMerc
That may have been true but with all the changes over the past year its clearly the killer thats now in the power role (EGC, hatch mechanics, healing, etc). The devs have stated that their goal is a 2 kills 2 escapes in a game. From the last statistics they released, killers were averaging over 2kills per game. And that was BEFORE the changes I referenced above.
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The killer is not the power role currently. Survivors, especially in SWF groups, have so many advantages that are just insane. Several strong loops, safe pallets everywhere, and all these very meta perks that literally save them a majority of the time. You are referencing the data the recently came out, but clearly at high ranks you would know the survival rate for survivors was drastically high. Not to mention how big of an issue gen rushing has become with a lot of matches ending in under 5 minutes. Killers are supposed to be the power role, but clearly the game is not balanced for their success.
Borrowed time is probably one of the top factors in survivors having such a high survival rate at higher ranks. I like how it is meant to counter tunneling and camping, but why should it reward rescuers for ballsy plays where they know there's no reason to fear unhooking in the killer's face. When I come across borrowed time, it's usually because someone wanted to make a save before I could even get away from the hook. A play like that without BT is risky for the rescuer's points. Why should 1 perk completely negate that risk on every unhook for that kind of rescuer?
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@SleepyWillo Honestly tunneling is not a thing. It's literally making the correct choice, provided they don't have borrowed time. If you chase the survivor that did the unhook right in your face, they're just gonna get a sprint burst to the nearest pallet and you'll be right back where you started while the other survivor gets healed. Unhooking in front of the killer's face should NOT be a common thing to do, and I get pissed when survivors do it to me, unless I'm being camped and they have BT. This is a survivor misplay, not a killer one.
"Tunneling" can be prevented by simply waiting until the killer leaves the vicinity.
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I think its very unrealistic that a survivor would crouch/slow walk to the hook, saving Sprint Burst and not being seen, and then BT unhooking in your face? That scenario just doesnt seem plausible... In a normal "yolo unhooking" scenario you'd get a hit on a healthy survivor as they run to do the unhook. After unhook you have two injured survivors. I play as if everyone has BT and DS unless otherwise proven. Besides, no point in being a dick regardless of how "effective" it may be.
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Wow, you'd be boo'd off the stage for suggesting that about BBQC and Ruin, which are much more dominant.
I don't agree with nerfing BT. It is easy to counter and predict as it is.
Mixed opinion on Adrenailne. It's a powerful perk, but it's quite unreliable outside of an organized SWF. I think decreasing the movement speed is fine. I'd also settle for removing the effect while hooked.
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The thing with Ruin and BBQ is that there are a good amount of counterplay/weaknesses to them. Borrowed time counterplay is just to take down the rescuer as quick as possible or wait out the 15 seconds to down the unhooked survivor. Either way, a survivor should have a feeling of caution when going for an unhook. Borrowed time essentially gets rid of any caution for almost all unhooks they do in the killer's face. There just needs to be a limitation on BT to allow for a proper counterplay.
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The issue i have with bt is it gets survivours on gens faster. I agree its good to counter camping killers but making it one use would promote being more careful with it. Killers need survivours on the hook to slow the game down and prevent survivours from pushing gens so aggresively. Making it so you have to time the bt for key moments means a killer can at least slug the hooked person to pull people off gens.
As for adrenaline its always been a powerful perks and honestly allows survivours to again push gens without worrying about healing. Keep the sprint burst as is but the health state needs to go. Keep the get off the ground aspect. But make it so you dont heal from injured to healthy. Adrenaline no doubht still be meta but it would at least slow the game down.
Games go too fast everyone says it and it primarily because hook pressure denial of bt and adrenaline allowing survivours to rush gens while injured.
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Tunneling can be prevented by survivors? I mean, are we pretending that tons of killers don’t go into a game with their strategy being to proxy hooks just waiting to make a b line back to the hook the instant they see someone coming? In these cases, there never will be a chance to not do anything but “unhook in front of the killer”, because they will always be around. Please don’t counter with “if you see the killer hanging around just let them die”
Your issue shouldn’t be with BT, but with the killers who make bringing it feel like a necessity. Yes some play reckless with it, but it does far more good and should not be touched
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BT is fine if you don't tunnel.
Adrenaline is unfair in regard, that you cannot counter it. Altering Adrenalin would hinder no healing meta, what's a good thing in my book.
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BT needs to go to pre-DW state.
Adrenaline needs to not proc inside of a chase.
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both perks are fine, stop complaining
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Adrenaline should either give the speed boost OR the health state and not activate while being chased.
Borrowed Time should be reverted to its pre-Deep Wound state. The Deep Wound mechanic was turned into a joke with Legion's rework.
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@SleepyWillo By sprint burst I mean once you hit them they get a free sprint burst to another pallet, where it's back to square one. You're not being a dick if someone unhooked someone in your face. You're making the correct choice. That was the survivor's mistake for either unhooking in your face or not having borrowed time. If you're away from the hook, they have time to play the game before they get found again most likely. If there's one thing I would love in the game it would be the ability to reject unhooks. I'm tired of seeing survivors make this mistake, and having them make this mistake on me.
@Karl_Childers I never said I had a problem with BT, but BT isn't a "tunnel" counter. It's a CAMPING counter. There's a such thing as tunnel VISION, where they target one survivor and ignore any other survivor, but tunneling doesn't exist. Camping does, sure.
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"Borrowed Time should be a 1 time use." Wasn't that a thing?
And Adrenaline.... Survs would just try to hurt themselfes before the last gen is done.
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The rescuer can only make a BT save once per match was my suggestion. That or I was thinking limit BT to only after all gens are completed.
And I don't have the biggest problem with adrenaline personally, but something needs to be done to make it not so OP and overused on last gen situations.
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Yeah your suggestion was a thing. That's what im saying. (the only diffrence is that ealier also the rescuee got the endurance
Here
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BT used to be only one time use but when it was one time use it applied to both the rescuer and the unhooked, so it was often used at the end game as a free esacpe since all the killer could really do at that point was camp, survivors would unhook with BT and run out and there was nothing the killer could do because both the rescuer and the unhooked had that protection.
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The main reason BT and adrenaline are meta is that there isn't anything else to run thats good. When you think of meta perks there's
BT, Adren, Exhaustion perk lineup (can only take one), DS, and Unbreakable
Then you have slightly off meta stuff that's super common but not as good like SC, urban, and Iron will.
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BT - just don't tunnel is that hard to do? Anyway BT got changed to unlimited uses cuz the old was broke AF and you are complaining about it ?
Adrenaline - Just don't let them get 5 gens they are just with 3 perks if they not make it to end-game
Stop asking for nerfs jeez
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Punishing the rescuer, muting your TR, walking away from the hook, or waiting 15 seconds are all examples of counterplay to BT. A large portion of the Killer roster has built in counterplay to BT in their powers (Pig, Myers, Billy, Bubba, Wraith, GF, etc.).
That's a lot of counterplay and far more than BBQC or Ruin, so I don't see your reasoning here.
If you know to wait before swinging to bait Dead Hard, you should know to wait fifteen seconds before tunneling the unhooked survivor to exhaust BT. It sounds like less of a perk issue and more about lack of skill.
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Use noed. Survivors dont know how to cleanse so you counter both perks now. as for BT during game hit the rescuer, avoid letting your TR be within, moonwalk with pig gf wraith. Besides, rescuer is better since most of the time they have DS
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*asks in ruin,bbq and noed*
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You mean there are two supposedly anti tunnel perks. Borrowed time and Decisive and you have have all of them applied to you at once.
Maybe making it not work when killer hit or downed another survivor after unhook or something.
I don't have a problem with DS other then the fact that getting trapped in a bear trap doesn't nullify it(which is stupid looking).
DS needs some looking into though. Maybe make it so if killer downs or hooks another survivor or if you leave chase for more then X seconds it stops working. Currently survivors with DS will just rush other hooked survivors or just take the hit and use their get out of jail free card.
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survivor main here and i agree that adreniline should not give a speed boost but should heal you to full even if you're down. the BT suggestions are just bad, it doesnt matter if you dont camp, there are plenty of killers who camp regularly and we need bt to stop that throught the whole game not just once
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First off, counterplay to BBQ and Ruin are easier than counterplay to BT. Not all the ways you listed to counter BT are easily doable (walking away from hook and muting TR specifically).
Getting away from the hook so its out of your terror radius is my problem. I often find myself against a group of survivors who abuse the perk to be overly altruistic and get away with it. To solve this and avoid DS I just go for the rescuer, but there are exploits these rescuers use to get the unhook without getting hurt (waiting until your back is turned, the hooked survivors hitbox getting in the way, etc.). Then I end up back at square one where I'm getting looped while the other person not in chase gets back on gens. Borrowed time rewards all reckless saving and negates the killers ability to keep survivors off of gens as much as possible.
Hooked survivors are a means for a killer to apply pressure, as it takes that person out of the equation for the time being (unless it's a death hook, then it's for good). Why should one perk single handedly take this away from the killer when the perk is used by a heck of a lot of survivors?
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If they are camping just do gens. BT can help get the save after using the camping killer situation to crush out some gens. If the person saved by borrowed time is tunneled afterwards, they can at least get to a loop/pallet of sorts to try and stay alive. DS would also be another help in this situation. If the killer goes for the rescuer, the rescuer can loop and what not until they're hooked. Then another person with BT can save or the gens will be done and Adrenaline/DS are also available. Camping just promotes a gen rush because pressure isn't applied by the killer, so learn to take advantage of campers.
Camping also isn't very common as killers know it makes them lose points, so there is not too much of a need for a BT save on every single save. Like I said though, I like how it is meant to counter camping/tunneling, it is just in need of a change similar to Mettle of Man or something.
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@Atrushan88 Maybe we just have a difference in terminology then. What I consider as tunneling would be a Spirit sort of lingering in the area of the hook and phasing back when they see someone coming. Or Billy lingering aka soft patrolling and zooming back to the hook. I call a proxy camp baiting an unhook tunneling....whereas I call camping the killer jut straight up standing there and not even pretending to not be guarding the hook. Under what qualifies as my definition of tunneling, unhooking in front of the killer can’t be avoided unless you leave them to die. These killers will always be in the area of the hook waiting to pounce, this is the most common tunnel in my book but far. Borrowed time is very useful in these cases.
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If you back away from the hook while facing them youll see if they go to unhook right away. If you fall for them baiting an unhook and hit the person on the hook thats your fault, you got mindgamed.
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@SkeletalElite yeah I do that when I know someone is ready to swoop in for an instant unhook. But if I don't know they're there I literally start leaving and they're already being unhooked, which should have more risk to it for someone who could care less because they're running one broken perk. And my problem with baiting the unhook is I watch out for it, but there are so many times where I am dead aimed on the rescuer and somehow it says I hit the hooked person. I mentioned this is another post I made where I said the hitbox of a hooked survivor should just be removed. The rescuer can even run under a hooked survivor giving them a hit protection barrier, which is nonsense.
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Because: BT has been nerfed multiple times but it's still better than most perks in the game
and Adrenaline is the living picture of a fair and balanced perk, acknowledged SWF shenanigans aside, but if you start messing with a perk because SWF can break it, you'll never stop.
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@Science_Guy adrenaline is not that fair. It's literally a free second chance on steroids at the endgame (I say on steroids because of the overly long speed boost). I don't mind the gaining of one health state, but the speed boost doesn't seem necessary in most cases. The reason it is one of the most used perks in the game is because of how clutch it is with almost minimal effort required to obtain it. Like I said though, it shouldn't be nerfed into nonexistence. It should just have limitations that keep it from being every person's get out of jail free card.
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You have to do 5 gens to obtain it. Killers have endgame perks that can help them out easily also. It is fine where it is at. The reason it is one of the most used perk in the game is because of the Selfcare nerf which triggered the no-heal meta.
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This.
Survivors perks are either amazing, #########, or self care.
Killers have more perks that are simply good with Ruin and now PGTW being the only perk that qualify as Amazing.
This means Survivors have a few things that are a bit broken or are just amazing enough to always take if you can. While Killers don't have as much like that but have more viable perks overall.
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Because of the no-heal meta being a thing now, that should be why the game looks into altering Adren slightly. It promotes gen rushing, which decreases the fun people can have in a match. And not everyone does a good job in getting the 5 gens done in a match, yet they can still be rewarded. But like I said, why should everyone benefit from a massive speed boost? A healthy person should not have a need for adrenaline to prock for them at all. An injured person hardly needs a speed boost half the time, as they get healed to full by adren. Only a person in dying state truly needs a speed boost from adren.
And killer endgame perks can help, but there is more of a grind to get these perks working for you (such as Remember Me). Or they have major weaknesses (such as NOED). These endgame perks offer the survivor rather simple counterplay. Adrenaline has minimal counterplay (if there even is any).
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camp + tunneler post #12421
BT , back in the day i would have said was a little bit more powerful for endgame but right now Borrowed is good, especially since theres alot of people who tend to camp and tunnel,
Adrenaline, Decent perk non the less although it does need a little bit of changing
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Both perks are fine as they are.
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Ok so Borrowed time as well as adrenaline. Borrowed time is used when people face camp or tunnel, which everybody knows there is face campers and tunnelers on this game so getting it nerfed even the slightest would give the killer an advantage over the survivors. This game is suppose to be even sided to all 5 players in the match. LIke you just posted "I can't even leave the vicinity of the hook without having survivors rushing a hook to get a guarenteed safe unhook" You have to resort to face camping from what it sounds like. You are just to damn salty that you face camp people and tunnel that one survivor and when they have borrowed time you have to go to the wiki and complain and beg that it be nerfed so you can feel better about yourself. Now Adrenaline you realize that there are multiple hooks and gens around the map. At the end of every game when there is just 1 gen left needing to be completed there are just 3 gens left on the whole map. All you have to do is just go back and forth between those 3 and when someone does have adrenaline all that gives them is a better chance of making it out alive. It already takes 20 Seconds on opening the gate. What I here you are saying is that you cannot get to a gate within 20 seconds of the last gen being done. So again you are just being a Salty Garbage player who would rather complain on a wiki page to get a perk nerfed for you to feel better. If you don't like the 2 perks and only those 2 perks then don't play the game. Honestly would be a lot better if anybody who had to complain about every little detail on this game to stop playing. I die, I get face camped, I see perks that are overpowered and misused to gain an advantage, and yet I don't come on a forum to complain I go back to my lobby and start another game. You as well as everyone else that has complaints on the game get so damn salty on the game that you have to cry about it on a forum. This game is literally just a game to play and have fun not for competitive plays. Just quit playing the damn game if you want to complain.
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"Not tunneling" isn't much of an option when the unhooked guy body blocks for the person who saved him because he has BT + DS + Unbreakable. I like having perks to counter camping/tunneling, but it's annoying when they're abused outside of their intended purpose.
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Another Killer asking for surv nerfs when red rank killers have a kill rate of 70%+.
Get gud man, just get gud.
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damn you really just made an account to post on a discussion literally over a year old
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BT is fine, the posts before me explained why just fine.
Adrenaline is an end game one time use perk, very situational, it should be strong because of the conditions placed upon it. Besides if you don't like Adrenaline bring NOED, it's a hard counter to it and far stronger than Adrenaline. You could also play any killer that can one shot survivors,
Not to mention that if you're able to kill all the survivors before the 5th gen pops you won't even see it come into play. For that reason, don't touch Adrenaline. It's good where it's at.
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