Struggle Phase Revamped
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I see no reason why it wouldn't It would make the killer want to leave the hook knowing they are possibly adding tokens to a player's stake out. @blankensnappeas
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I like this idea, Can someone make like a visual representation of this?
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If the last player is skilled enough they could hold the game hostage FROM the hook forever...
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@MrSunbro no they can't, Time still decreases if you gain 1.25 seconds for every great on a 5 second skill check you are still slowly dying 3.75 seconds loss each skill check. You would only be extending your life in increments until there is no more increments to give.
Post edited by Jdsgames on1 -
@Peanits I wouldn't mind skill checks as long as it wasn't "every 5 seconds" as that gives away too much time if you want to just sacrifice yourself. I'd suggest constant skillchecks back to back if skillchecks are what become the change.
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Unfortunately, you didn’t see where I refer to passive and active actions. Also, there is a difference between first hook and second hook. You seem to be fine with us “kicking back and enjoying some tea” during first hook, but certainly not during second hook, so that point is moot by your own acknowledgment. How about instead of what we currently have, we either:
- Push and hold a button, like all AAA games allow you to opt into, let go and you die immediately.
- You display a bar in the middle of the screen that fills horizontally over 10 seconds. If the bar fills, you die. If you press X, the bar resets to 0 and starts to fill again. If you press O (circle), you die immediately.
The fighting for your life comment is a little silly. Having skill checks every couple of seconds is ridiculous, and I hope you understand why. Do you think it is a good game mechanic to do this for the entire time that you are on the hook? No other game that I am aware of, has FORCED a player to mash a button for long as DbD does. NOT ONE!
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WOW, just WOW! I generally talk about the damage that button mashing causes, and you go directly to water poisoning. WOW!
I read your entire original post and here is how it reads:
Hey, I’m the killer. You know, I don’t think it’s fair that a survivor gets 2 chances on the hook, so here is how we can kill the hooked survivor faster.
That is exactly what your entire post sums up to. I play both killer and survivor, with a preference towards killer, and I would never consider any of what you discuss as a viable option. Being on the hook should be nothing more than a time-out. The only thing in your entire post that is survivor sided, is the option to use Deliverance during second hook, which would mean that there is no counter to it.
So, there is the response that you asked for, both here, and the other thread. If any part of your idea became true, I can see people leaving the game in droves.
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@Atrushan88 what about a dedicated button to suicide instantly? That way the punishment of missing two skill checks is death for those who want to stay alive. Those who want to suicide they can opt in? Then the skill checks don't interrupt suicides.
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That is because first hook isn't struggle state you just sit there on the hook. Almost like a safety net hook. Although, I don't want to put it down I will say most AAA games are very stale with the same mechanics each release. So I really don't find following their path always the best strategy. Otherwise we would be buying loot-boxes I mean um "Surprise Mechanics" in dead by daylight.
Your first suggestion is trash it takes the struggle out of the struggle state entirely. The second one I am kinda down with I just don't really see it as an active struggle. Kinda a stale mechanic like the current struggle.
Although, I do agree that button mashing should go. Lag spikes, input lag, and various things cause premature suicides to the point macros or key-rebinding is needed. However, I do not want to see it gone to an even more mindless option. @Kaelum
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I would LOVE for you to explain to me how this is killer sided? @Kaelum
I acknowledged Unnerving Presence would be abused and specifically stated it shouldn't work with these skill checks.
I acknowledged that madness with doctor should be tested to see if it is fair.
I gave you the miss, safety, or bonus for the hook state. Gives the ability to gain extra time on your struggle phase, with a detriment for missing. If you don't want to gamble you have the good skill check as a safety net option.
This isn't an instant death punishment for missing one and is negated by hitting the good skill check or a great. Again a dual punishment and reward system that is balanced.
Most survivor perks that benefit this I see no reason with allowing them to boost you here.
This mechanic can hard-core punish campers depending on your ability to hit greats. That or bringing perks like stake out.
Changing animations to make a more in-depth mechanic.
It also gives a slight buff to deliverance. Although, to be fair you have to work for it.
This also removes your complaint about button mashing. In addition to removing the instant death penalty for a lag spike to kill you.
Post edited by Jdsgames on0 -
@Jdsgames That should be fine. As long as there's a prompt telling you which button to use. I suppose it wouldn't be available during skillchecks, but you could just fail the skill check to ######### in that situation anyways so it should be fine. I do feel like if you fail one skillcheck you should die immediately, but in return perks wouldn't work on it. Doctor's power could PERHAPS work on it due to it being a power and not a perk, but that would likely have to be tested. This way you could suicide any time you wanted to exactly like live, rather than needing to fail a skillcheck and THEN press the dedicated button during skillcheck sequences. Plus I can only imagine how bad Huntress Lullaby would affect survivors if someone got full stacks with it. I don't think it should be any harder or easier than live. To compensate, you could remove great skillchecks completely and make no time be added, or reduce the great skillcheck success zones.
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@Atrushan88 I don't want to make a one-miss death. It really would make trying to gamble for extra time severely not worth it. Removing that mechanic would make other suggestions need to be nullified like the deliverance buff as it would be nothing but a pure buff to the survivor stand point. Although, I am down for huntress lullaby affecting the skill checks on the hook differently. Although, if she was full stacks maybe you should be paying attention <3. This just makes the mechanic worth more overall on both sides. It also as stated in a previous point it punishes camping if you bring certain perks or are good at hitting greats. The longer you are on the hook from a killer perspective is better. So allowing extra time naturally would make rushed saves less incentivized. Although, the suicide option can be presented throughout the whole hook phase as 'e' like dead hard. It simply just works to bring in what @Peanits said a way to ######### on hook. Doesn't make it so you have to wait 10 seconds and then death animation. This allows you to give yourself some actual 'borrowed time' hah get it? The animations will make this bit better to look at than having to button mash.
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@Jdsgames Doing this though prevents you from suicide during skillchecks, and I don't mind no time at all being added, which was why I said you could remove great skillchecks, or at least reduce their skillcheck success zones, making it not a buff, well aside from deliverance, but honestly you should get to use your perk if you got the stack for it regardless imo. Camping killers are punished enough by normal struggle time as is anyways. Also you couldn't have Deliverance and the suicide option be the same button. Sorry thought I read everything.
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@Atrushan88 no, I was originally saying miss two on purpose was your suicide. However, that was exchanged for the button like you suggested. However, missing two still kills you. It makes the gamble have a punish side to it and makes it so you have to actually attempt to keep concentrated to stay alive. If you miss two in a row boom you are gone. So you have to balance making sure if you miss one go for that saftey net of a good. Want to gamble you can lose time in the struggle. However, camping is still quite viable in certain cases so I do like punishing it. EGC camping is fine it is a good strat, however, doing it to be an ass to someone isn't.
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@Jdsgames So you can press this suicide button even during skillchecks? If so that'd be fine I guess.
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Yes, @Atrushan88 I am down for that working. It adds dynamic to the phase. Think of suicide like just letting go. Missing two like screwing up so bad you lose to the entity.
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@Jdsgames Well in that case the only thing left is deciding on a button for both deliverance and letting go, as you said you need to press a button to activate deliverance if you have the option to use it.
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@Atrushan88 that can be up to the devs. I really don't care as long as they are not the same button LOL.
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I like this idea, and I don't understand how it can confuse anyone.
It's not killer sided, as it allows survivors to add extra time if they're good, and it buffs "This is not happening" and Deliverance, to allow it on second hook, so, it's the EXACT same if you use it on first hook, but, it's more difficult if you use it on second hook, and has a much higher chance of failing
I've taken to binding hook struggle to "Mouse wheel down", so I just scroll down to struggle
This would, however, completely ######### over both my friend and my brother, both of which can't do skill checks very well :/
(Though, they've blown up a gen in my face a lot of times so... Oof)
Post edited by Rizzo on3 -
@Peanits Can you suggest this change with a suicide button that can be used at any time?
@ThatGuyFromThatPlace Your friend and brother should at the very least be able to hit normal good skillchecks right? Although if they're newer it'll come with time.
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My friend can't hit good skill checks sometimes, and can't hit great at all: He's still a rank 20
My Brother can hit skill checks, I've seen him hit multiple great and hex skill checks in a row before even
However, his monitor is limited to 30FPS, so he has a LOT more trouble doing skill checks because he has less time to react to it, and the needle moves less smoothly, and jitters more because of that
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@Atrushan88 I have been updating and managing the original post of the thread with the ideas. Take a look suggestions have been credited even. Thank you guys for also taking the time to like the original post. It takes a bunch of people to make a change to a mechanic like this. The more support it gets the more likely it is to happen in some form. Still open to suggestions that flesh out this mechanic more for implementation and how mechanics would work. Please keep in mind I am looking to have this implemented in a fair way both good and bad aspects for both the killer and survivor.
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@Jdsgames Might want to take out this sentence as it is now meaningless due to the other changes, but looks fine to me.
"Slipping up too much is essentially your give up option. This plays into how people suicide for hatch and various mechanics where you are limited by at least 10 seconds before you can do this."(For some reason can't use quotes on Microsoft Edge for me)
Although Distressing not working while Huntress Lullaby DOES work still confuses me. It doesn't make sense for some perks to work while others don't. I mean I don't WANT Distressing to work, but for the sake of everything working the same way, if Huntress Lullaby works, that would dictate that Distressing would as well.
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Good eye @Atrushan88
Also I think I strive for balance more than "Oh if X works Y should work" I am up for extra mechanics on some perks that would effect it, but, current standings of some of the perks. Little OP you can't lie.
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@Jdsgames I definitely agree there'd be a balance problem, obviously, but something would have to be added so that people know "Hey this doesn't work", if things were done that way. Balance is important, but so is consistency. That's why things like Autodidact have specific text that says "Does not work with med kits", or We'll Make It says "Cannot exceed 100% healing speed". At the very least that would need to be placed on Distressing.
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@Atrushan88 Look at the perk effects and changes. I specify if a perk will or will not work and why. If you have suggestions or thoughts on more perks do let me know. I could have forgotten about others. Ruin is already tied specifically to gen skill checks so it wouldn't apply. Distressing I think you mean unnerving. However, it would be op and abused. It shouldn't even need to hit live to figure that out. Although, I agree 100% with text information of the perk should be accurate. I didn't know autodidact was non-medkit specific until someone told me a few days ago. Same with dark sense you need to be on the generator for it to renew auras. Although, I will look into cleaning the section up a bit so it easily readable.
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@Jdsgames You're right, I meant Unnerving, sorry. I never use those perks so I always get them mixed up. If I owned Legion I might use Distressing on him for more information, but I don't generally see a benefit of the perk otherwise(unless playing Doctor and I just don't play Doctor), and survivors don't generally stay in TR for long while doing gens anyways for Unnerving. Also I looked at them and they look fine to me. All that would need to be done would be for them to add extra text to define Unnerving not working under struggle conditions.
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I agree and also Any other suggestions? @Atrushan88
You seem to be someone more interested in balance and better mechanics rather than GG I win or "Just use a macro."
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Not specifically for this struggle suggestion as it looks to be pretty much as good as it could be. I've posted quite a few of my own balance suggestions/QOL changes for both sides. They never seem to gather much traction though. A lot are just small improvements though so I can understand. Usually anything that isn't a major buff or nerf gets either disregarded or still met with extreme disgust from one side or the other while the one it benefits doesn't seem to really care.
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I didn't get any of that, though. If anything, it would make times longer, which wouldn't be an issue if the killer decides not to camp. It could be an organic way of punishing camping when/if they introduce additional objectives or change the gen times. It also gives you something to do that isn't button mashing. As someone who plays both and leans more towards survivor, I think it sounds fair and it could make perks more useful and possibly give you more points, too.
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My friend can't hit great skill checks at all, and has trouble with good: He's rank 20 still
My brother can hit skill checks fine, and he's hit 2-3 great/hex skill checks in a row before, while I've watched, however, his monitor is 30FPS, and, because of that, he has less time to react, and the red needle jitters around more, making it harder to time it right
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@fluffymareep thank you, do you have any suggestions to the main suggestion?
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I dunno about perks/powers affecting the skill checks.
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@fluffymareep if you notice for the most part they are all weaker perks/powers so I generally don't think it would be a super-ultra god tier meta change. @ClogWench what do you think about this suggestion? I have seen you post on other anti-struggle threads.
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That was the only thing I wasn't sure of, but it could translate differently to a game than I'm thinking it would. I know some people were concerned for newer players who aren't the best at skill checks, though.
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I see what you are saying @fluffymareep However, this idea is again bending to the new players which is why we have a balance problem at high rank. I can understand new players issue with camping and tunneling. However, before I bring anyone new to play I let them KYF a few skill checks just to get the hang of it. Camping this mechanic would punish the low-rank campers more than they already do so it would be a slight buff to new players in a way that it doesn't affect high-rank non camping killers. In fact if survivors got left on the hook just a bit longer. That is less time they were on gens. See the picture? It is a mechanic that slightly tends to the balance issues. I see the same problem with survivors being injured and gen kick at base. A perk shouldn't be what is needed to make a mechanic work or be benefited from. Like dull totems for example. How, I percieve it there should be a bonus to the killer for every dull totem remaining. Maybe like +2% to their movement speed per dull totem. This makes the mechanic necessary to do rather than a side-ho objective to possibly counter a perk.
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I really don’t know how many people it will take speaking up before the devs finally realize that mandatory button mashing is an absolutely terrible idea, and it is a 100% outdated “mechanic”. I understand that they want to keep struggling interactive, but practically ANYTHING ELSE would be a better option than what we have now.
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@PrincessPoop what are your thoughts about the suggested mechanic. @Peanits already said if enough people speak up they will look into changing it.
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Still looking for input on the thread.
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Now this is the first change I've heard from you that I actually agree with, especially the animation changes and buff to Deliverance. Great skill check = dodging a jab by the entity? That sounds so COOL.
Being pulled off and the entity stabs where the survivor's head just was sounds terrifying and the deliverance one? Perfect. Absolutely perfect.
I'd suggest something a bit more dramatic and violent if the survivor misses the skill check, maybe a smaller spider leg stabs into the survivor's side (and the sound they make will just be a sound that they make if they got hit from healthy to injured).
Also a few deliverance changes (I assume the skill checks will be similar to the DS and Brand new part skill checks?).
If the survivor hit one skill check out of three, they'll remain on the hook, same if they hit none (obviously).
If the survivor hit two out of three they'll still unhooks themselves but will be affected by deep wounds (when they kobe maybe have the entity slash the survivors back? Thus causing deep wound?)
And then three out of three they unhooks themselves unharmed.
But alas, great change ideas 😁
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Change the death animation, after the entity impales the survivor, the hook breaks and the husk of the dead survivor falls to the floor and the entity's claws pull them into the ground.
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See, I think initially you are quick to jump to conclusions. When you disagree with something you should state why. Similar to how you pointed out what you liked about the mechanic idea. You should do the opposite when you disagree. defeat arguments with logic not insults or exaggerations. I make both Survivor and Killer sided changes I try to remove a bias. There are reasons I believe in the changes and have no problem fully explaining my position. However, doing that on every single post is sometimes just not doable due to time constraints and general spam.
"Being pulled off and the entity stabs where the survivor's head just was sounds terrifying and the deliverance one? Perfect. Absolutely perfect." - It just changes it to be more action based. Not let me macro or spam a button. Although, skill checks are technically quick time events they are not used really as such in this case. You have fall-backs. Glad you like the change.
"I'd suggest something a bit more dramatic and violent if the survivor misses the skill check, maybe a smaller spider leg stabs into the survivor's side (and the sound they make will just be a sound that they make if they got hit from healthy to injured)." - Again if Behavior has better ideas for the animations I am down. Again this is general concept for a mechanic and just some bonus ideas to go along. If this animation was changed I wouldn't hate the mechanic. It simply is a visual representation of thought.
"Also a few deliverance changes (I assume the skill checks will be similar to the DS and Brand new part skill checks?)." - You would be correct: You got a buff but you have to work for it to make it happen.
"If the survivor hit one skill check out of three, they'll remain on the hook, same if they hit none (obviously).
If the survivor hit two out of three they'll still unhooks themselves but will be affected by deep wounds (when they kobe maybe have the entity slash the survivors back? Thus causing deep wound?)
And then three out of three they unhooks themselves unharmed." - Understandable the reason I made it 3 is because I want to make it more prone to failure. I don't want the mechanic to be an instant buff with no downside. Deep Wound in the current state is a useless status effect. It is already being exploited by just remaining in deep wounds within the terror radius or in a chase. Not something I am fond of for those particular reasons. I preferred the old borrowed time you needed self-care or a teammate to patch you up. If you were in chase you needed someone to take a hit for you. These mechanics were more diverse than they are now and more 'deadly' per-say.
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True, Deep wound is a pretty much useless status effect.
The reason why I thought if you hit two out of three you'll be affected with deep wound is because I had the idea that you'd have to waste a bit more of time to mend yourself then go do a gen or be healed.
I honestly think that the timer for deep wound should be affected from meters rather than the terror radius itself.
If they changed it to meters, it'd be a bit more useful to the killer and would also help survivors affected with deep wound against killers with low terror radius' (Myers, Ghostface, Wraith, Pig).
But yeah, I wouldn't mind how this idea would be executed just as long as they do it right.
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Do you have any other suggestions to the thread?
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Not really other than it's a great idea, I'm sick of lag spikes getting me killed when I'm obviously struggling.
This change would help with lag spikes accidentally sacrificing survivors
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I really like this, but the skill checks would be Moreno for survival you know?
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@Jdsgames I kind of agree with 8obot1c. the points you get should probably go to survival moreso than objectives. But at the same time, if you're being chased you're not likely to have had much generator "action". Either way it'd probably be good, but it makes more sense to go to survival. There is already a big difficulty on getting survival points as is, so adding survival to this category would be nice. Perhaps half survival half objective? I know the game doesn't have that sort of system in place, but it shouldn't be hard to add. It'd literally just be giving you X points for survival and X points for objectives.
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Well, see how I kinda look at it. Although, you are being camped to death you are getting objective points for stalling the killer on the hook. Essentially giving your team the chance to do gens. However, you also get struggle points for the duration of your struggle phase. If you complain you can't get these points your team yanked you off too soon. This encourages leaving them hang a bit if the killer doesn't tunnel while camping ones give the team a chance to do gens and totems while rewarding the 'bait' persay. Although, I am down for a boost in struggle points if this changes.
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@Jdsgames It doesn't bother me entirely however it would be done. But some extra survival points are always welcome, and if you're being chased you're likely not doing gens, so you're probably gonna suffer from both of those, especially if you don't get out. This is generally a big problem with campers. You don't get many points at all for any category except boldness. You're still stuck in the game trying to hand your team a win, but you lose out on points massively.
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