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The Nerf Cycle
Comments
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sighs there was more counterplay.
The way how you argue shows that you event don't know what is was, but as said before, I don't see a point in writing now a tutorial for it, because I know, you will find some short words as excusment why you have not read that tutorial, or why that can't be the truth, even if it got written by pre Legion main - aka. the person who should know its best, since mains spent the most time with their favorite character.
Think, what you want, but this mindset will you always lead to killers that are op for you.
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Actually I've probably heard all that """"counterplay""""" before, so don't even bother. I know it'll be bs
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@Talmeer Legion could tunnel down a survivor and down them in three hits with Frank’s Mix Tape and NOT have to wait for their power to fully recover. It was broken. All you could do is hope the Legion player was boosted a missed their swings.
Legion was not good for getting 4K’s but good enough to tunnel one survivor and kill them and make the game super unfun for everybody. The reason people played him was that it took zero skill, you got a lot of bloodpoints, and Legion still SOMEHOW pipped even when you killed only one survivor.
New Legion is also bad. They are so bad that all their power does is give you a Borrowed Time effect and a Sprint Burst upon a successful hit.
I just hate Legion gameplay wise. He isn’t good and also isn’t very fun to play as or against.
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I mained legion pre-nerf and he had no counter play in chase. Stabbing someone four times while vaulting over everything didn’t take much skill.
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@gantes Iridescent Head is so strong that even I can 4K with Huntress and I’m TERRIBLE with her. I can’t think of a very strong add-on for Huntress to replace it but I DC every time I go against an Iridescent Head Huntress as should most people, it is complete BS.
An extra blink wouldn’t be the end of the world but anything over three blinks is overkill. An extra blink and very long range add-ons should be exclusively purple/pink add-ons. Although some people can use them a lot if they are a Nurse main. I have nearly 40 pink add-ons for my Spirit and Hag.
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Unless you have something going on in real life or are experiencing a game breaking bug then you shouldn’t dc, period.
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I agree with you, that Franks Mixtape was to strong.
The thing is, although I was a pre patch Legion main, I had never use this addon, or purples in general. Just 1 time each, to test it and the difference to the default Legion without addons and it was just boring.
On the other hand was the default Legion exactly what I wanted to play. So was the choice for me very easy -> I had play hundrets of games just without the addons, or sometimes a brown one.
I wish survivors could better remember the default Legion, without addons as that they always remember that op Legion with Franks Mixtape.
Many people have play the Legion without it.
Survivor's exploit sometimes or use op perks, but not everyone of them, hm?
The truth is, if someone exploits, he is toxic and toxic people you find everywere.
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@GrootDude Sorry to miss out on the thrilling fun of one shot hatchets, Prayer Beads, and 5 blinks. I’m not gonna stay in a match when two people already DC’ed. I rarely DC as it is, I stay and torture myself against Billy and bore myself to death against Legion.
I really don’t care what anybody thinks about DC’ing. I won’t stay in a match with OP add-ons while my entire team is DC’ing. Everybody DC’s from time to time.
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Where is my Vote Down option when I need it.
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Well, if the killer is a nice one, he let you farm then.
Many killers let survivors farm if 1 or more dc's - depending when that had happened.
You miss a 30k+ bp chance then (without survivor dailies).
I also think that nobody should ever dc. Have it also never made by myself, besides 1 time were I have land because of some weird bug with a Pig in the same match and so I have dc then, because I don't wanna get banned for playing a 3v2 game^^.
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It's not fine if only killers are judged around top-play(the standards killers have called for since day-one) but survivors are held to different standards: that of 'not all players play optimally, most players are in low-ranks, people will leave the game if you forced them to play optimally etc'.
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The Ghostface changes were small.
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Missed a hit, whoops guess I'll just swing 55 more times until I hit him
Vaulted a window? Guess I'll just vault way faster.
Dropped a pallet? Guess I'll just vault the pallet and hit him.
The point is, pre patch Legion had 0 counter play. There is literally no defending him.
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Can you accept on principle though that something being problematic doesn't make any solution a net improvement?
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I understand people are upset over Legions changes, but I feel like gutting him sets him up and allows the devs more room to make whatever tweaks or changes they need to. He will be a good killer, he just needs some decent number improvements.
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It had. Just use the YouTube searchengine if you are interested to know the counterplays, survivors had against the Legion.
It's anyways better as to write a long text again, that then not got readed.
I am maybe done with giving survivors tips in the forums, but I don't let stay a lie.
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I see, and should we expect to see such improvements soon? Or should we expect them in accordance with the devs established record on improving killers?
They're much faster with the nerfs.
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Enlighten me on his counters. Please. I would absolutely love to know them.
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I believe they mentioned something about Legion in the stream. I can't recall what it was, but I remember they did. The devs showed what they can do with Freddy, and it is quite impressive. I believe they will do good on Legion once his time comes.
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We both know that I could nothing write, that would persuade you and that's why I am done with helping survivors in the forums.
Nobody can help someone, if he does not want to be helped.
If you really like to see the counterplay, search at YouTube. The tutorial videos are not hard to find. Knowing that because I searched them one time by myself.
As said before, the Legion had problems, but please try to not overstate it.
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Nice, so I searched up some videos and what I found was that his "counter" was to juke behind him when he vaults. Man, what reliable and good counter play. I also found these videos.
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Yeah, I had know from those crying streamers/YouTubers before.
The point is, the most of them do it because their audience want it so and it doesn't help anyone.
Not the Legion players of course, but also not the survivors. If you always cry at the dbd devs in awaiting that they nerf your problematic killer X, you give yourself never the chance to grow with your character.
Imo, everyone should prefer to stick to the YouTubers that make tutorials videos, because they are really helping.
But the named counterplay from you was also pretty common in higher ranks, to the pre patch times. It had help survivors sometimes in certain situations. It was of course not the only avaible counterplay.
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Yes, most of them make videos explaining in detail why the Legion was busted just to please their audience. Not like they wanted to make a video to show their displeasure for a killer that ruined the fun for almost everyone in the game. You clearly didn't watch a single video, otherwise you'd realize that he has no counterplay. I don't blame you though, you think pre patch Legion had counterplay, so that says all i really need to know about your knowledge of the game. The "counterplay I named" was a joke, because it actually isn't counterplay. You could pull it off maybe once or twice, but the guy could mindlessly swing and vault back to stop you from doing that. Like, there was literally nothing you could do. You keep saying he has counterplay, but not once have you actually provided me any evidence or elaborated on what his counterplay was. If you want to watch any video to show how little counterplay he had, watch this one:
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I was a pre patch default Legion main. So I know there was counterplay i've seen it in the game.
I don't say that the Legion was not op - with certain addons loaded, but not every Legion had play his character like that and if the addons are the problem, why looking for more?
I usually tend to watch YouTubers that are a help for me and with that I mean, that they show me how I can do something.
To listen to someone, who's not explaining how to do something and is instead just arguing about something he finds unfair or op, is just a waste of time, because it didn't help anyone, besides the people that have already their opinion made (so that they can say "here look that guy says exactly what I already said!").
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Edit: If you watch already the first 0:25 secounds of your linked video (exhilration...), you can already listen how this YouTuber wastes no time to rant about the Legion.
That's nice... For people that have already made their opinion.
But tell me how someone can learn something from that video, besides to jump also on the nerf train?
I will watch the rest of the video, but I bet already yet, that this YouTuber is not able to tell 1 time!, someone something about the counterplay for the Legion. All he will do is show video-material that proves his point (at least in his opinion).
Should I be wrong, I will edit this posting again.
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I am not impressed by the Freddy rework, so probably not the best example. Or Wraith. Or Trapper. Or Myers. Or Huntress. Or Billy I have more positive things to say about Doctor, Hag and Spirit, but with caveats.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9oy7ZmFrsIE
Regarding Legion, I have looked on Youtube as @Talmeer suggested and the top video for 'dead by daylight playing against legion' is from 8 months ago, 318k views, by Monto. He directly challenges the idea that Legion is 'not under-powered', and he's sure Legion is(and probably still does after the changes). In his tutorial he uses what were standard meta perks for survivors at that time: BT, BL, SC and Adrenaline.
His 3 pointers:
- Do not stick together
- If he hits you and goes away, mend
- When he jumps over pallets, don't run, just jump back. Does not work on windows
I remember this from when Legion was released. More than half the time that third one works, because Legion's view is locked forwards until the animation finishes. If they attack to early, it's queued and they attack straight ahead of them as soon as they are off the pallet. If they attack late you could be too far back over the pallet for them to hit; they have to turn round first. The time-window for Legion to do this is very small and they land off the pallet slightly further than survivors do.
On actual windows it doesn't work because the interaction-zone for them is much smaller; Legion will be blocking it. Much of this was discussed by killers when Legion was released, but survivor-mains don't make a habit of going into killer threads to just listen.
Monto's video isn't just trying to demonstrate 'look at how I won'; winning really doesn't mean anything in a scenario that's meant to show specific facets of gameplay and the emergent dynamics of them. For weird people who do think the actual escape-kills matter, well anybody could just cherry-pick the examples where that did happen, but it's not very informative about specifics. I excuse him his e-peen swinging about his LEGACY SURVIVOR because he demonstrates and explains what he's talking about, he understands it.
I'm watching his later videos now to see if he changed his mind about Legion and if so, why.
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That's actual a good video, but I guess "the no counterplay guys" will write now a one liner why that video hasen't any use for them.
I for myself watching the other video at moment as said before and I listen to a guy who is constanly! ranting about the Legion. I am now by 11:20 and this guys is not be able to say 1 time something usefull. Just stuff to bring people on the hate train.
Well, he has still 4 minutes to say something of value that could actual help players, but I think he will be a disappointment.
It's always so easy to rant about something, but to do just 1 time something that would be a help for someone, seems for some guys to difficult.
Edit: The video is finished... Finaly... 15 minutes of ranting without a single tip that could potential help someone, of a guy that plays with a op addon. That has nothing to do with the real Legion. I can only shake my head.
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Of course he already has made his opinion clear in the first 25 seconds. Isn't that the ######### point? This arguement by you makes literally 0 sense.
If you're telling me there isn't anything to learn from that video, you're completely ignoring anything against Legion in it. It's pretty crystal clear and I'm pretty sure a 3 year old could grasp the idea that Scott was putting there. The fact he had 0 counter play.
"I will watch the rest of the video, but I bet already yet, that this YouTuber is not able to tell 1 time!, someone something about the counterplay for the Legion. All he will do is show video-material that proves his point "
I have 0 idea what you're trying to say here. But, if you're trying to say he won't point out the counter play, the entire video went over your head. Because the entire video was to illustrate that he had no counter play.
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You should be impressed by the Freddy rework. It brought a ######### tier killer to mid to high tier. Not an easy task. Secondly, Montos tip about vaulting behind them works on braindead killers who don't catch on to what survivors do. Watch any killer with a brain play Legion, and you will never see a survivor run behind them while they vault and make them fall for it consistently. There was no chase counter play. Any good player with experience can tell you this.
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If I should be impressed because of one specific thing, I at least except it to be something tangible rather than abstract, like the 'tiers' that people seem strangely obsessed with. I have my own standards for to judge Freddy by and it's by my own that I'm not impressed.
You let me know how I identify a 'Legion player with a brain' and I'll watch the video, but if your definition of that is a tautological 'doesn't get fooled by this', then it's a bad-faith argument to begin with.
In his later videos, Monto came to the conclusion that because of the counter-play survivors were doing less than a day after he was released, there was no reason not to run mixtape addons plus reduced cooldowns and tunnel people. The devs had designed the Frenzy power with gaping flaws that were too easy for the survivors to use.
So did they fix this by making the power itself viable for the intended purpose or going after multiple survivors? Not really, they instead just interfered with the counter-play dynamic after survivors said they 'had no counter-play'. This seems to be a familiar pattern. The fact they said it with every single other killer that was nerfed doesn't ring any alarms.
The new standard go-to copy-paste justification by the devs seems to have started here: he was frustrating to play. Not over-powered, not un-counterable; it was frustration, something which has no metric that can be tested and conflicts with claims of data-driven decisions being taken.
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So Legion mains don't know what argument have to use for defending that unbalanced and badly designed mess which was Legion and the new argument is a massive conspiracy of experienced players who only want to please their youtube suscriptors, blaming about Legion... Ok...
Legion had the dubious honor of being designed considering the only the fun of playing him/her without considering the fun playing against him/her. The most unfun to play against for me, over the top, worse than Doctor or Hag, which is saying something.
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DEFINITELY was the worst killer to go against.
Doctor is annoying, but is loopable. Nurse also doesn't have counterplay, but if she makes small mistakes at least you feel like you're an active part of the chase and not just a mob that the Legion player was farming.
Legion removed all skill from both sides, period. They ignored the game fundamentals in a way that not even the Nurse does, even if they were trash tier. Old Legion was the epitome of "I'm not winning, but you're not having fun either".
The worst thing that ever happened to this game, hands down.
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I'm not disagreeing. It's why I liked Legion pre-nerf (although I don't miss the default movement speed). The easiest thing to do is just to get out of their terror radius when they go into frenzy. Survivors just don't like that it requires different strategies to the looping they've grown used to.
Same with Spirit. Requires different counterplay: you need to be moving in unpredictable ways, maybe sprint one way then walk another... although good spirits will still be able to hear you... it's more about skill there.
Counterplay isn't a bad thing, since it requires knowledge, it's just that it needs to be better than "just loop them". It's why I find Wraith and Clown unenjoyable to go against: They only require looping and the can get free hits. I don't mind wraith so much, but I hate playing against a clown because a good clown has no counter in a chase (of course, that's why stealth is important against the Clown).
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But Clown has no map pressure. I hate him lol
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"Core mechanics".
Looping? That which everyone argues wasnt even intended gameplay but an exploit of design that was left in and adopted? That "core mechanic"?
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I don't get where these people get these ideas from.
Did they honestly think the devs thought that survivors would instantly go through a pallet, drop it, and move onto the next one?
Objects around pallets have always had long sides + short sides, admittedly a lot of the sides are too long and has made far too many potential safe pallets but "looping" was definitely intentional.
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The entire design of the Nurse is to be extremely strong and not make looping as viable as a typical M1 killer. As is the two other most powerful female killers Spirit and Hag. To an extent Huntress is as well.
Looping is not the ONLY way to survive a chase. Breaking line of sight, certain perks, and stealth can easily get you out of a chase. Just because you can’t run around Nurse like you can a killer like Wraith or Leatherface doesn’t mean her entire design is broken.
Now...when you can add five blinks then it becomes an issue. Her add-on need a rework and that is exactly what she is getting. Her base kit though? Needs no change.
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Man it's threads and comments like these that make me wish the down-vote option was back. Either that or the forum should shut down for a couple of days.
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That's what I said. He's bad at pressure but not fun in a chase if he does find you.
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I have always say, that Franks Mixtape was op.
The guy in this video plays with Frank Mixtape. I wonder why? Why hasen't he play the Legion without addons?
Maybe that would be a totally different experience?
Maybe because the things he had show in this video, would he never be able to show without addons?
In the 15 minutes he had in this video, he said not one time... ->not one<- time, something useful and that is my point.
Videos like that helping nobody, besides the people that have already their opinion made.
They don't teach someone how he can be better. They also say nothing towards devs, how they should change the character on a healthy way.
All he is able to do is, is repeat himself a feeled thousand times in 15 minutes, with "owww my goad, such a bad design"-
Again, that's helping nobody. You can decide to stay crying with tears behind your screen, or you can be doing something usefull.
He has decide to do anything, just don't being usefull.
Post edited by Talmeer on0 -
Can we address deep wounds being garbage
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Did you think her add ons needed a nerf back in 2017?
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The funny thing is, after they nerfed her many times already, they left her add ons alone which technically hurt her. Her purples are actually useless along with many others that serve really no purpose.
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They only nerfed the Nurse once by removing her third blink in 2016.
The change in 2017 was originally thought of as a nerf by some but it was actually a slight buff which was argued at the time. The change was made due to the game map for easier vertical movements. Her blink changed so you could control the distance travelled and where she could blink too on the map. It just took some time for some players to get used to those changes to realise it.
People have asked about add on reworks since 2017. They devs first discussed doing in over a year ago.
Omega and extra blink ones were asked to be changed and most of the others to be reworked as they are not worth using due to you losing more than you gain.
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Mark my words, those changes will be GOOD for the Nurse's health overall.
Even if she gets a small nerf at base (probably not gonna happen), Nurse players will have a choice of add-ons instead of using the same 4 in different combinations every game.
Even with the Freddy blocks/Legion pins being meme tier, add-ons have been quite decent lately. I'm sure they'll do a good job on her, considering how popular she is.
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Not intended yeah okay 2016 infinites called they said you are wrong :P
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I'm not defending either side of that debate. I'm just saying every time "exploit" comes up people mention looping as an unintended mechanic that was adopted to normal gameplay. Therefore Nurse counters nothing that was intended. In that situation.
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The funny thing is, after they nerfed her many times already, they left her add ons alone which technically hurt her. Her purples are actually useless along with many others that serve really no purpose.
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Truly I hope if they choose to visit prayer beeds that they just rework it to a whole other thing that's still strong as hell..
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Yeah I think her other purple add-ons embody it well. They're EXTREMELY strong but not absurd like Beads.
IMO in order to be allowed to be that gamechanging, add-ons should be pink. Purple are supposed to be the very strong stuff but still in line with the lower tier of add-ons.
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