EGC is fair and balanced
The End Game Collapse IS in fact fair and balanced. I've seen a lot of people complaining that it's unfair and broken that the killer can now close the hatch and that the doors are too close together. The door issue is the only thing that needs any tweaking.
Whether people like it or not, Dead by Daylight is a TEAM game. You do not have to act like a team, you don't all need to survive as a team, and you do not even need to communicate as a team, but you are still a team by definition. The survivors are one team and the killer is the other. The survivors do not need to act as a team in order to win, nor does acting as a team guarantee that all the survivors will escape, but regardless, you are still a team.
The End Game Collapse is NOT for the survivors. The reason it exists is so the game can no longer be held hostage. Sure, the killer can still hold the game hostage by blocking the survivor in a corner, but this is much much harder to do than what survivors used to do, which was urban evasion around the map and run loops for eternity just to spite the killer. Since the killers are the one who are trapped in the map, it only makes sense that when the EGC timer runs out, it's not them who are punished for staying inside the map, but the survivors who did not leave, but once again, it is not for survivors.
If you get to the EGC by opening the doors, you've almost certainly won. This means that unless you are in a chase you can not win without going down, or are wasting time inside the map, the EGC is not a problem for you. You won, you did the objective, you got out. This is a clear survivor victory.
If you did not complete the generators, you have FAILED the main objective. If you get to the point in the game where the 5 gens are not completed and you are the only one left, unless you are 100% confident you could do all the gens yourself, you have FAILED your role as survivor. Of course, as a 4 person team, it may have been out of your control how well your team did, but you are still a team, and so your strength is pulled from your teammates as well as your own skill. If your team fails, YOU fail. That is why you have teammates. Your power alone is supposed to be weak when faced against the killer, and so only with 4 of you can you match the monster hunting you.
However, the hatch exists. This is a "second chance" for a survivor to escape after they have already failed their objective. Now many people on the forum have said that it's a "mercy" that should be allowed since the killer has already won the game by killing the 3 other survivors, but just because your team failed does not mean that you have some kind of entitlement to an escape. The hatch is supposed to be a chance, and just like all chances, it does not always go your way. The killer is faster than you, so if you want the hatch, you are supposed to act quickly and to the best of your ability to find it. If you don't find it, it's not because the game is unfair, it's because you failed once again at your objective. The reasoning doesn't matter, you failed. If the killer found it first, oh well. If it was in a hidden spot, oh well. The game gave you another chance and you blew it.
Your final chance is the gates, which are the only things that need tweaking. A minimum distance should be put between them, but it is your third chance as the final survivor who failed their objectives, so it makes sense that this should be difficult. Doors only take 20 seconds to open, so if you're both smart and lucky, you can open them up without the killer being able to catch you. I've done it many times by waiting by the door rather than the hatch, and I've also been caught many times doing it.
Fact of the matter is that just because you lasted the longest doesn't entitle you to an escape. You failed not only to do the objective, but also to save your team. Your team may have been trash, the killer may have been using "OP" addons or perks or offerings, but those are things they earned playing the game and have as much of a right to them as survivors do toolboxes and flashlights.
If you get the hatch, you rob the killer of a kill he would have had guaranteed if the hatch didn't exist, and if the killer gets the hatch, you get robbed of a second chance you had after your team died. It's balanced perfectly fine, and if you died in a game because of the EGC, oh well. You lose nothing but the items and offerings you willingly brought into the game and you get a few thousand less bloodpoints. Realise the killer did their job well, and move on to the next game.
And before anyone comments, I do plan on making a post similar to this about NOED, as I play survivor and killer equally.
Comments
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It is, but unfortunately we got lots of nooby survivors who just want ez escapes and be even more op than killers. It wouldn't surprise me if the roles would get switched any day now, the 4 survivors hook the 1 killer, and the 1 killer try and escape and do gens.
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Let's not turn this post into a "killerVSsurvivor" post please. There are plenty of killers who get mad just like survivors. The sooner we can all enjoy this game together, the better.
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It literally does not get any "fairer" than TWO additional escape opportunities at 0 gens done.
That's the end of the story.
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If keys are fair from survivors point of view, then EGC is also fair.
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I'd just like to say. The Survivors are not a Team.
They do not win together and thus they are allies at best.
Since the Survivor "team" cannot win, only the individuals can and only if they individually complete their objective and escape. In fact in some specific instances a Survivor might purposefully sabotage another Survivor's chance of winning in order to take a win for themselves. No that is not working with the Killer since they are still simply attempting to optimize their own win.
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"a group of players forming one side in a competitive game or sport."
That is the definition of team. When you join a lobby, you are put with 3 other players who are considered one side of the game. The other side of the game consists of a killer. Like I said in the post, the survivors do not have to work together, communicate, or even escape together to be considered a team. In fact, there doesn't have to be ANY indication that they are on a team, and they'd still be a team. You can never see another player in the game and the survivors would still be considered a team, because they all share one objective that if one of them completes, they all get the benefits from.
While it's true that some players like to try and kill their teammates, they are still on that team, which is why doing so is so frowned upon. It's a betrayal. People team kill in other games all the time and are still considered a team, so why would team killing in this game be any different? And before you say "Well they aren't directly killing each other, so it's not team killing," it is still team killing because you are purposely ending the life of someone on your side.
It does not matter how much one person or another contributes to the team, they are all a team, and it does not matter whether their main objective is to get out together or with everyone else, they still are designed to work together to "win" the game. If you've ever played a game like TF2, Mario Party, or Left 4 Dead, you'd know that just because you're on a team does not mean that you always have to stay with your team. If you survive and leave first, you're a member of a team that survived. If one dies within the game, they are a member of the team that did not survive. You're still a team, no matter the outcome.
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UNFAIR Only 1vs1
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fair like NOED. Lol
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Even if keys aren't fair, EGC should still be seen as fair. The only thing that needs to be changed is to make doors not spawn next to each other. The killer shouldn't be able to camp the way out.
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1v1's are supposed to be "unfair". It's a normal human being against a literal monster. Even with 4 survivors it's supposed to be a challenge to escape, so why would it be fair in a 1v1? The hatch is for the off chance that you are lucky enough to find it first, not to make it an even playing field. If you don't want it to be an "unfair" 1v1, make sure your team gets out before then, or die first.
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I've never had an issue with EGC itself, only the door spawns which are supposedly "random" but end up being on the same way or very close in at least 90% of my matches (excluding The Game where they are locked to be straight across the map from each other)/.
If the system they have now is what they call "random", then they need to make locked locations for doors and criteria to assure that doors are always far apart
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Yeah, the only thing they need to tweak about EGC is the door spawns. I don't care whether or not they spawn across the map from each other, I just want them to not be on the same wall and not within sight distance of each other.
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i didnt read the whole thing but i agree
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Except you DON'T have the same wincondition as the other survivors.
My wincondition is for Me to survive while Your wincondition is for You to survive.
Relative to each other we are neutrals.
Compare that to something like tf2, where our wincons are ACTUALLY the same. And thus your win is my win and my win is your win. THAT is what makes something a side.
However, in this case my win condition technically has nothing to do with yours. It only just so happens that fullfilling my wincon makes it easier for you to fulfill yours in most cases. But that doesn't mean we are on the same side, when push comes to shove I'm obligated to leave you behind and save my own skin.
The Survivors don't actually mean the 1 requirement for being on a team. Specifically they are NOT on the same side, but rather slightly different sides.
Just like how in ffa deathmatch everyone has a very similar wincon but the difference in who it refers to causes people to conflict. The only difference here is that the Survivors wincons aren't mutually exclusive, however that doesn't make them a team. Just look at any game with a variety of wincons. For example in social deduction games it is common to have roles who's wincons are to survive. When 2 or more of those roles spawn, no one would say they are on a team. If they find each other they will likely cooperate for mutual benefit when possible, however at the end of they day they are each Neutral in that they are only interested in themselves in terms of winning.
It's the same here. This isn't a team vs team game, it's multiple 1v1's.
This is actually why the game is so hard to balance. If you have 1 amazing players and 3 terrible ones with a pain old good killer, then who should win? Obviously the 3 terrible ones shouldn't, but what about the amazing one?
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As a mechanic to limit how long a match can drag, the EGC should have its timer start at the beginning of the match. Otherwise some matches can last 20min without the EGC triggering.
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I'd prefer the hatch only spawning for the last survivor or when 4-5 gens are completed.
The camping nonsense, both by killers and survivors who find the hatch, is what makes it unfun. Killers have an advantage in finding/returning to the hatch simply on the basis that they can use their power and speed to find/reach it before the survivor. On the other hand, survivors can pitch a tent at the hatch and let teammates die, or vanish into thin air with keys. Pretty "unbalanced" if you ask me.
The last survivor will have a better/fair chance when the hatch spawn is truly random and we won't have to bother with making the exit gates any easier for the last one standing.
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For those of you who keep saying exit gates spawn too close, consider this: it's RNG, just like hatch location and a lot more in this game. Now, if gates spawn far from each other, often the killer is screwed. Understand, he or she is screwed even after he managed to stop survivors from doing gens, managed to kill three of them off, and managed to find and close the hatch. All this also means that survivors FAILED their objectives. And after all that, the last survivor still has a chance (yes, RNG based chance) that the gates spawn far enough, so any Pig or Bubba or Huntress will have basically no chance to catch him.
Umm... how is that fair? If anything, there should be a fixed MAXIMUM distance between gates, not a minimum.
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Again, EGC has no obligation to be fair to one side or the other, its primary and in my opinion only purpose is to put a hard time limit on a situation that could be dragged out forever in at least two ways before (hatch standoff if both have the patience of a saint, or the survivor just hiding forever).
Sometimes you get gates that can be seen from the same hill and you're against a Nurse, sometimes you get gates on opposite sides of the map against a killer with no mobility. It doesn't matter, either way it makes the match actually end in one way or another.
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It's not multiple 1v1...
It's 4v1 asymetrical multiplayer.
The survivors are meant to work as a team or there wouldn't even be unhooking or points for taking a hit.
F13 is 1v1v1v1v1v1v1v1 in that yoy can pit a car together yourself and drive off and never worry about another person.
DBD is team based 100 percent.
Y'all are silly if you don't think so and probably selfish/trash survivors
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I have just one thing I would like to be changed:
Increase minimum distance between Exit Gates to Spawn from each other. That's it.
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So, you are saying that this is a game 4 vs 1 and if survivors don't make the gens is their fault and the killer deserve 4k at EGC. But I don't see when you say that if survivors ends 5 gens the killer had failed and he deserve 0k
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You know, I actually agree to this, but it should be put into better terms.
You are acting like one of those cheap killer mains who only ever have to blame it on survivors. You die, survivor's fault. You get chased from the beginning of the game till the end, survivor's fault. You get found, even with all the aura reading perks playing the game instead of the killer, survivor's fault. Yeah, I see you wrote you play both sides, but this seems to be the way you put it.
People need to realise that being "an asymmetrical game" does only mean that one side is made up by 4 players while the other one by only 1. And that's it. Killers shouldn't be faster, survivors shouldn't be negated the chance to hide, if they want to play it that way, instead of constantly looping.
Back to the "you failed" argument, NOED is the most prominent example you could have here. Killers are effectively rewarded for NOT being able to do what they should have done, for the whole duration of the match. Since no one is entitled to anything, killers shouldn't have the ability to instadown survivors in the end, because they could not win otherwise. More than anything, killers who ALREADY have instadowns at their disposal (and who rarely ever down people by any other means) e.g. Billy, LF, GF, Myers, should NOT even get the chance to find NOED in their bloodweb.
About what concerns exit gates, they should be on opposite sides of the map. Either killers go check on a door and leave the other one unguarded or they camp a door (which isn't unusual for killer players). Something to help them on this and make even survivors happy with the change, without letting survivors ALWAYS get a door open would be to rework NOED to make it only give you increased movement speed. NO instadown, at all. Decisive was nerfed, Mettle of Man was nerfed, and those were rightful changes. Time for cheap perks on killer side to be nerfed too.
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The killer does not "fail and deserve 0k" until 4 survivors escape.
The game is not over after generators are done.
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While I agree that it's fair. As a survivor main those who held games hostage deserved this. I have had it happen on multiple occasions where both myself and the killer knew the location of the hatch, and when the other last survivor is hooked for the third time, killer has enough time to walk across the map, and stand on the hatch before hatch has opened. Leaving me robbed. I'd say the only fix we need is a faster hatch opening when that last survivor is hooked
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It can be fair, but it really needs 2 big changes, 1: gates should always spawn across from each other, no exceptions. and 2: Bring back hatch grabs too counter keys. In its current state it's way too easy for killers, even if the survivor has perks like Wake Up, because most games the gates spawn 2 feet apart so you just have too stand between them and the survivor has no chance of escape. And the hatch grab change is because Keys are just too damn strong ATM. Killers don't even have time between jumps too close the hatch before another survivor jumps in, and if multiple people get/bring keys, you can't stop them.
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While it is true that the win condition is for each person to escape on their own, it does not change the fact that you need each other to survive, and if none of the survivors played as a team at all, you would almost never be able to escape.
If it was possible to escape the normal way without needing teammates, then I'd concede that it isn't a team game, but that fact that you NEED your teammates in order to do all the gens and get out the door is what makes it a team game for me personally. If it was a 1v1 from start to finish against the killer, you'd lose 100% of the time. It is the team you have that allows you to stand any kind of chance.
Your example of a deathmatch is a good one for games where you could team up but don't need to. However, Dead by Daylight is a game where, as the survivor, you NEED your team. You could camp hatch every game, but that's not playing the game the way it's intended. In almost no circumstance can you play the game the way it's meant to be played alone and survive.
If it were multiple 1v1's, you'd have 0 obligation to go back for your teammates at any point in the game, and they'd have no obligation to go back for you, yet all of us here who play survive know that unhooking a survivor is a must, and to not leave them from first hook til death.
Left 4 Dead is actually a great example of how this is a team game with separate win conditions. Left 4 Dead in undoubtedly a team game. I can't think of anybody who would argue against that. With that said, it is entirely possible to leave teammates behind at the end of every campaign to save your own skin. That doesn't make L4D not a team game, it makes it a team game where you have to make sacrifices. Everyone's win condition in L4D is the same: survive. Yet you play as a team, and when the time comes, you have to decide whether to go back for a teammate or save yourself. Same as DbD. You are a team with the same objective, which is surviving. Since you're 4 different people, you all want to survive, and so sometimes you've gotta make sacrifices in order to do so. It doesn't diminish your role as a team, it just means that sometimes everyone can't make it.
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You say I sound like a cheap killer main for saying people are responsible for their own skill and actions during a game?
Sometimes you get found right away and are chased, it's a normal thing that happens in this game and happens almost every game. If you're the first one found, that's just you being unlucky. If you can't outrun them, unless there is heavy lag or cheating, yes, that's on you for getting caught. DbD is a skill based game with a hint of luck on the side. It is entirely possible to run a killer around literally all game, so if you get caught, it's either you got outplayed or you messed up somewhere along the way. Sure, you can say that perks or addons are the reason you got caught, but those are tools at a killers disposal, and if you can't work around them, then it's because you weren't skilled enough to. As a survivor who has died to infinite T3 myers, Insta saw/hatchets, silent hag traps, face camping bubbas, pre-rework legion, auto-selfhurting trapper, and all the other frustrating stuff this game has to offer, it's entirely fair, as the killers had to work for those addons and perks and have a right to use them. Just like if a survivor has DS, Unbreakable, insta-heals, flashlights, and insta-toolboxes, they have a right to use those against a killer as they worked for them. There's no reason besides a skill gap that people die or people escape.
For your second point, how would a killer ever catch a survivor if they weren't faster than them? Seriously, did you even think that one through? How would a Legion ever get a kill since they can't down with their power? How would a Plague catch a survivor if they were sick and nobody cleansed? It'd be impossible. And hiding is a strat that many people use. Lockers block aura reading abilities, and urban evasion, quick and quiet, and lightweight all help with stealth. If people are failing to be stealthy, they simply need to get better at it, cuz most aura reading perks have very blatant activators like gens being done or hooks. As for the aura reading perks "playing for the killer," if all it takes is the killer knowing where you are to make you lose, you're just bad at the game. Part of this game is being able to run a killer around, and if you can't do that, you are just not skilled. Sorry, but chases are an important part of the game.
As for noed, I've already made a separate post about it, like I said I would, but I guess I'll humor you anyways. Noed is a second chance perk, and is given when you've already failed. The same way Unbreakable rewards you for being slugged, DS awards you for being tunneled, and Deliverance awards you for being caught. I know people will complain that they aren't even close to the same since Noed allows a kill, but what else could be given to a killer as a second chance? Bloodwarden is the only other second chance perk for killers, and is rarely used simply because it's inefficient.
Also, even with Noed, if a group of survivors are good, it will usually only get a killer 1 kill. That's a depip if the survivors played well all game. Noed is barely a problem due to the fact that it only activates at the very end of the game, and is still entirely avoidable by not running at the killer and getting instadowned. I've been killed by Noed countless times, but I realize I as just unlucky enough to be in the wrong place at the wrong time or overstepped what I should've done. Also, you could just get the totem after it spawns, and boom, noed gone. There's plenty of ways to avoid the perk, and it's usually those who just give up at the sight of it that think of it as "so op."
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If the killer can never even touch a survivor all game and they get out, yes, they deserve to get 0 kills and get much less points than usual.
If 3 of the survivors die without doing any gens, and the fourth person is found in EGC, yes, all those survivors deserve to die and get much less points.
If you don't play well, yes, you deserve to lose and get much less points. I thought everyone thought this about video games, but I guess I don't know anymore.
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@Glipngr the mechanics of the game DO allow you to beat the game normally on your own.
You are incredibly unlikely to do so, but there is a perk to make it easier (left behind) and an achievement for succeeding.
So it is possible for 3 survivors to immediately DC or die on 1st hook or whatever and then for the final survivor using a build like Left behind, Poised, Sole Survivor, Object of Obsession, to evade the Killer (who for whatever reason decides not to close the hatch) for the entire game and successfully power all 5 generators in order to escape.
Probable? No. Optimal? Definitely not. Possible? yes.
I mean, using your logic where do we draw the line?
Ok so obviously players with contradictory wincons are not on a team. But are ALL players with compatible wincons on a team?
What about games where cooperation is NOT optimal. Such as if there are significantly less resources than are needed to reliably win, and thus killing others to take their stuff is optimal even if not required.
What about games where cooperation is technically optimal but not particularly encouraged? Like in the example with survivors in social deduction games.
And we could keep going. Approaching mathematically required, at what point can we say a game is a team game instead of just a solo game where cooperation is a decent idea.
Is Cursor.io a team game? You CANNOT win by yourself (mathematically impossible) however at the same times the ones who cooperate are the least likely to advance at any given moment.
I've always just defined a team as a group of players who win together, that is to say the victory of one implies the victory of everyone else in the group and the loss of one implies the loss of everyone in the group. A group can be allies without being a team but all teams must always win and lose together in order to be a team.
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I said you are ACTING as one, but I guess it was easier for you to play the big guy than it was trying to understand writing. You're not really humoring any but yourself here, pal. Remember that lockers blocking BBQ is just a relatively recent add to the game, before that there was no way to deny it, since you were visible even behind gens, if killers looked carefully. Your point here is that I, or any other survivor, are bad at the game for getting found LOL. It is already clear that this game is now far from being designed to help stealth. Killers move way faster then survivors do, and you'll have to be moving crouched, more often then not, or you'll be in LoS even behind objects. Which means that, if you do not happen to have Urban Evasion, you'll move slower than if you were blind, on a wheelchair. When I said killers shouldn't be faster, I effectively failed to explain my point. Yes, they should have a slightly faster movement speed (and Plague desperately needs some), but Bloodlust is something that, as NOED, should not exist. About "groups of survivors who are good", you are, once again, acting like the game isn't mostly made up of SOLO survivors, like myself. I even destroyed 4 totems on my own in a match that happened just yesterday, but that an exceptional case. Totems are FIVE, I am but ONE. Without communication, there is no way to tell if other survivors are cleasning or not. You would have to check the whole map on your own, while constantly worrying about gens, killer and hooked/injured survivors too. You don't see how flawed that is, do you? Decent players have been asking for totem counters on the HUD, giving even more of a reason to find totems, underlying their importance. Yet not a single killer main wants to allow that. So, from a killer's point of view, nerfing is out of the question, providing info is out of the question, reworking is out of the question. But nerfing Decisive and MoM was totally fine, because they were survivor perks? I was ok with those perks getting nerfed, since I never used them, because of how much of a crutch perk both were. NOED is just the same, time to get some balancing both ways.
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tl;dr
1 vs 1 EGC is a free kill to killers masked as a "let's avoid game hostage" situation.
As usual good idea, fancy visual effects, bad implementation.
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Yes, a free kill that only required the killer stomped the survivors. Truly, it's 100% free and required absolutely no effort on the killer's behalf.
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Wow... " 1vs1 fair, no gen, no find hatch, no open gates"
killer see SWF disconnect of lobby!
thats funny.
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Pay 3 get 4 is not how a game should work.
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Have a pretty good chance at winning a 1v1 is exactly how an asymmetrical game should work.
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No. You confuse "asymmetrical" with "unbalanced".
Pretty common mistake around here..
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And you confuse "asymmetrical" with "a survivor should be able to 1v1 the killer". Pretty common mistake the numbers role makes in every asymmetrical game ever.
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lol fruitless try but commendable nonetheless I wish we could all get along.
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A survivor is always able to 1 vs 1 the killer all the time in this game: happens each time you escape a chase.
Difference is killer is faster and can kill, survivors are 4 and wider fov: that's the asymmetry.
1 vs 1 during EGC is just a no-escape situation (unless the killer sucks), where part of the balance is already gone (being alone surv with no distractions for the killer) AND devs added:
- closed hatch that triggers a timer
- end of timer kills the surv
- only 2 points of escape where surv can be
- 2 points of escape are not far enough
- slow to open gates that allow killer to easily recover the situation
This is not asymmetrical: this is free kill.
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Gates don’t need a minimum distance. It’s RNG. Just like when a survivor spawns right by my Ruin.
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EGC is only triggered in a 1v1 scenario when the survivors have failed every single step of the way. Remind me again why it's unfair that they're adequately punished for it?
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Dc
Solo players
Hook farming survs
Camping
Lagswitchers
+
if 3 ppl suck, it doesnt mean the 4th, and probably best of them, must be punished.
Enjoy your free kills but dont try to call them legit or skilled.
They are not.
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I'm a survivor main, and we're talking about balance issues, not people doing things they shouldn't like lagswitching or disconnecting.
Campers are easy to beat. Literally just hold M1. Problem solved. I don't have any problem with campers, even when I'm the one being camped.
If the 4th is so great and so much better than the killer, they should be able to outwit the killer.
It's a game mechanic, so the kills are legit. What you consider skill is irrelevant.
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As someone who plays survivor, stealth is not an impossible feat even with aura seeing perks. Even with BBQ, you can just move away from where you were and by the time the killer gets to where you were, you should be gone unless you ran in a straight line and the killer intercepted you. Sure, aura reading perks are good for finding a general location of a survivor, but unless they stay in one spot, which they usually don't because they anticipate BBQ, you're still gonna have to actively look for them. You also don't need to be crouched in order to stay hidden. I've hid around the corners of walls and simply walked around the wall when they come around many times and not been found. I do admit that stealth is hard in this game, but with practice you can easily find ways to do it. There are also survivor perks that help with stealth just as much as killer perks that help with finding them, such as Lightweight, Quick and Quiet, Distortion, Dance with me, and Urban Evasion. If you want to play stealthily, make a stealth build and play smart. Doesn't mean you're guaranteed to never be found, just means you have a better chance at not being spotted.
As for Bloodlust, it is certainly strong, but as long as there are loops that make it almost impossible for the killer to catch a survivor, it is needed in some cases. And no, I do not mean pallet looping, I mean loops like old Badham or the Swamp building loops, ones where a simple pallet break could solve it. I've already made a post about noed needing changes, adding in a totem counter, and changing the way it's activated, so before you complain about noed to me, go read that. Though, I wasn't referring to SWF when I said groups. Even without SWF, I've come across teams of survivors with amazing teamwork as both survivor and killer. You don't NEED SWF to be coordinated and efficient, it just helps. Using perks like Bond, Empathy, and Aftercare can really help you know what your team is doing, which allows you to take more advantage of it. Being solo doesn't mean the team has to be bad.
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Okay, you got me, you can technically do all the gens and get out the door yourself. It's just such an incredibly hard thing to do that I've never seen anyone do it besides one youtuber. If you manage to meet someone who has done it, congratulate them, because that is seriously impressive.
As for your points on what makes a team game a team game, I believe it's simply a game where the win condition is the same, or at least similar enough that working together greatly enhances your chance of winning with no downside given by the game itself. A game where teamwork is encouraged and rewarded, even if you don't NEED them to survive, such as L4D, Trouble in Terrorist Town, and DbD. When it comes down to it, I believe our definitions of a team game are just fundamentally different, and I doubt either of us are gonna change our opinions lol. Nothing wrong with that, we just gotta agree to disagree.
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Yeah, I know you can be stealthy, it is just made much harder than it needs to be. But come on, you must have played solo already. How many survivors do you see brining in perks good for the team and not just for themselves? The general truth, sadly, is that being solo will often make you lose, no matter how much stuff you did on your own. The game is designed to have survivors working together, yet there are many more cases in which other players simply unhook you in front of the killer/with the killer nearing before they did so, just to get points, or other cases into which other survivors will just bring the killer to you in order to free themselves of him. Not to mention those beyond toxic who just work WITH the killer. And that is made even easier with aura reading perks. As for Bloodlust, the simple, better solution would just be that of removing those loops, and BL with them. Less looping, less tunneling, everybody happy. Though we know BHVR isn't quite the fastest team, when it comes to game balancement.
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@Glipngr Agreed.
For reference I usually use the term "Allies" for people who are currently helping each other as a consequence of circumstance rather than as a goal based requirement.
All teammates are Allies but not all Allies are teammates. Since an Ally doesn't have to stay that way and can betray you whenever they want (even if it isn't tactically sound to do so), whereas for a teammate to betray you the game needs to specifically include a conversion mechanic.
That should make discussion clear.
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As someone who only plays solo, I absolutely know how infuriating the game can be. I know stealth is difficult, especially if you're not playing certain characters. I know the survivor meta places perks that help themselves above those that help the team. I know sometimes people will farm you in games. I have experienced it all. But I've also found considerate teams who do their best to help out everyone. Teams who use empathy and We'll Make It and more. I've had amazing solo games where everyone survived not through bullshit or the "overpowered" perks, but through real teamwork and helping each other. I know it's not the experience everyone gets, sadly, but I would like to balance the game around enjoying it together as a team. I'm optimistic that the game can be one where people help each other and enjoy their time each trial. I know not everyone sees it that way, but I do.
As for BL and loops, yeah, they should just get rid of infinites, I agree. They are working on it, as seen in the attempt on Badham, but until they are properly got, killers need BL.
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Terminology is fun
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