(PLEASE READ) Making DBD More Fun for Everyone
Hi, you're probably reading this and thinking I'm just some random DBD player. And you're definitely right. But I am a random player who has a lot of time into this game. 1000+ hours and consistent rank 1 killer and survivor. As I continue to play this game, I constantly feel like the game can be much more fun on both sides given balance and gameplay changes that would help both sides feel more fair. I understand balancing the game for the top end of the game is not good, but I also understand that balancing for rank 20s is also not good. At the optimized end of the game, only the spirit and nurse consistently win games. At the low ranks of the game, the nurses and spirits are extremely bad typically, in comparison to the overall potential. What the game should be balanced around are the middling people, while still accounting for potential craziness at the lowest and highest ends of the game. I think DBD overall, does alright at this, however, there are numerous issues that should be addressed. I hope that this document outlines and gives potential (and I hope good) solutions to the majority of the issues given. I will address Balance, UI, Bloodpoints, etc. in this post. Remember, time is the most valuable resource in DBD. (Be warned: I am really blunt)
This post would have been far too long for the forums, so the documentt below is public view. I thank you for reading the document in advance, and I hope to spark discussion among the community with the numerous changes proposed. In turn, hopefully, the developers will see this and potentially utilize some (or all) ideas listed. Thanks again :D
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1fB0A3hAmB1n0KxDu5PDqwm4LeyGeSpchHTR4ipzYTCY/edit#
Comments
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Congrats and thx! You did a very good work!
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I like huntresses mori, it's really vicious and straightforwardly brutal.
I also like searchable items to hide totems idea. But it feels like it's gonna suffer from "pig's syndrom", i.e. gonna create a feeling like it's always the first or the last one. And it was proposed a lot of times to make lit totems look like dull ones, yet it wasn't changed still.
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This rework document is a work of art. It truly shows some real thought went in to fixing a lot of the issues this game is plagued with, and is not biased toward killer nor survivor. It's too bad implementing even a small fraction of changes like these would take an eternity for them to implement.
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My hope is the devs will see alot of these changes as high importance. I appreciate the praise :D
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I just dont agree with some of these.
(small note you cannot just remove an add-on you have to add something in for it, cause they did say they would do max 20 add-ons on all killers)
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That's fine if you do not agree with some of what is in the document. I just wanted some base for discussion of the changes proposed. I do not know if you can just remove add-ons, but your reasoning does not make sense. If there is a max, and no designated minimum, then add-ons would be abled to be removed.
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Im not too sure about those bloodpoint changes. Yeah arguably survivors gain some ~1000 bp/h less than killers, but while most of the point inflation in your concept seems modest enough, i find myself strangely irritated by the Myers' Outlast score. (Probably because it'd be awarded to people who werent even seen by Myers.)
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I meant that - The devs set a goal of add-ons on every killer to be 20. You can see that on newest killers and balanced changed killers.
(I should've wrote that as minimum and as max that's my bad)
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Ahhh. I see. Well that is something that could certainly be adjusted! Thanks for the info. I actually didn't know they aimed for that.
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Perhaps it could be lowered. However, a similar argument could be given for Ghostface. For example, if Ghostface just stalks a generator and causes two people to be exposed, in most instances, only one of them will be chased and hooked. I understand the point, however, I think the survivors do deserve to be rewarded for not going down during a tier 3 myers run. Then again, I do not think it would hurt removing it.
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a few criticisms
1) BNPs are ######### now, I dont know you're proposing to nerf them even more.
2) The aura reading addons for keys are ######### anyways and no one uses them for that purpose, they only use them to open the hatch.
3) Also in regards to the trapper sabotage changes, sabotaging is ######### and it's not worth the time spent sabotaging his traps unless they're self arming since there is so many scattered around the map it'll likely be respawned before he even noticed and if you dedicate enough of your time to it that he does notice it well, you just spent enough time sabotaging traps you could have gotten 1 or 2 gens done instead.
4) I think wiki is out of date regarding flash lighting a wraith, currently if you start lighting him before he starts uncloaking you will get the stun but if he starts uncloaking first you will not be able to burn him. I think that's fair since it rewards whoever was quicker on the draw.
5)D Strike change: Good idea in concept but if you get farmed by an injured guy and the killer downs you and the injured guy he can just hook the injured guy first and then rehook you because he deactivated your perk even though he downed you with it.
6) Deliverance Change: I think allowing the survivor to attempt escape during the struggle phase and no longer requiring them to struggle would be a better change.
7) Lithe change: I think a stat buff of .1 second faster medium vaulting would be fine. Resilience does this fairly consistently (being injured isn't that big of a requirement) and it's not game changing and resilience even has other effects.
8) MoM change: Was like this on the PTB but it got nerfed again. A better nerf would have been unhooks only because people complained it was too easy to get 2 stacks on 1 hook by getting hit during the unhook. Getting your stacks on unhooks only would be good because it restricts MoM to activating once MAYBE twice in a game. Even if every survivor is hooked the maximum number of times that's only 8 possible unhooks in a game. To activate the perk you have to get 3 of those and for a second person to use theirs they have to get another 3 meaning if more than 2 get stolen from the second dude he's SOL.
9)128 meters is the whole map, there is no map where 128 meters range doesn't cover the whole thing.
10) leaks have revealed that stealth killers are getting some love in terms of detection perks (code regarding a status effect that makes the killer immune to aura reading, and not just t1 myers, its being standardized as a status effect)
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Going to be honest, no idea what BNP stands for. So I cannot respond to that.. but the others things.
Even if the aura add-ons are not used often, it does not mean the amount of time alloted to a key is relatively high with the add-ons.
I agree, sabotaging bear traps is typically not a good move. However, in the rare instances where numerous people run sabotage builds, the trapper's power cannot be gone for nearly as long.
Even if this were the case, this can force the wraith out of cloak much farther away from a survivor. Again, the Wraith has no counterplay to this besides approaching from covered positions. However, this becomes a huge problem on more open maps like Blood lodge, Mount Ormond, Red Forest, etc. The time can be adjusted for the proper time in game, assuming the wiki is wrong.
That's a fair point. I think it can be changed to stay active if the survivor is in the dying state through the next hook. This would make sure this situation would not happen.
I thought about changing Deliverance to this. However, this creates a lot of problems with the in game interface, and the overall idea of the perk. It is a risk to run the perk, as the safe unhook may not happen. If it were changed to this, there is no longer a risk to running it, as typically by your second hook, you should have unhooked someone. There still needs to be a risk running the perk, but not an absolute punishment for it getting nullified. That said I thought the bloodpoint bonus would help mitigate that, but I would be open to in game effects.
Perhaps the Lithe change would not be that strong. Who knows.
I would not be opposed to these MOM changes. Ash needs some love in terms of his teachables.
The removal of the 128 meters is because by having that within the description, it implies that some maps are larger than 128 meters. Of course, people who have played the game for a long time know this is not true, however, newer players will not know this. Bye bye confusion.
Yes and Im excited :D
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Brand New Part. (BNP)
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Thanks man. Regarding Brand New Part, they are not #########, especially when multiple of them are run. This is where the problem lies. Looking at the math side of things, if a player hits both skill checks, 25% of the generator is done over 5 seconds. This is a 15 second time save, not including the progress they do while on the generator at the same time. This means solo, excluding all great skil checks annd toolbox bonus speed, a generator now takes 65 seconds to complete. 15 seconds is massive in a game like this, especially against optimized players. Even against non optimized players, when multiple of these are run it can allow for games to be taken over at lower ranks extremely easily. This 5% nerf allows for this take over not to happen at the high or low ends of the game.
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Or you could run a commodius with socket swivels and clean rage. That's 180 charges of 40% extra repair speed.
That will complete a generator 22 seconds faster and you have enough charges for 2 generators.
That's a green tool box with a yellow and brown add on.
Don't even bother thinking about the purple toolbox though because its only 10% faster than the green one but has 100 less charges so it's only 1 generator worth of repair.
Edit: Fun fact, did you know a commodius with a hacksaw and wire spool not only has more charges than the purple sabotage toolbox, but also sabos faster than the purple sabotage toolbox (if the purple one doesn't have the hacksaw too)
tl;dr why use any toolbox that's not the commodius? And why use the BNP when the socket swivels and clean rags are better at gen rushing than the BNP unless it's a ######### toolbox.
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That is not a 40% repair speed bonus. The Commodius toolbox only offers a 15% buff to repair speed and Socket Swivels offer a 15% repair speed buff. (I tested this in game to make sure it aligned with the wiki) This means a generator takes 62 seconds to complete, excluding skill checks. Again BNP is much faster, as it is only 65 seconds, excluding bonus repair speed with toolbox, great skill checks, and repairing while installing BNP. BNP is still significantly faster for one generator, and again the main concern is when multiple of these are run.
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This is terrible, more killer oriented blabla.
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Definitely not more killer oriented. If you read through the whole thing, there are numerous buffs to both ends to allow counterplay on both ends. But what exactly is to killer biased in this post?
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You know what's really cool in DBD? Moris are.
Moris are the dumbest thing in this game.
Also the hex stuff, killer buffs, toolboxes, please.
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Not sure if this is to highlight how the document is "killer oriented". Because, if so, this is a realtively poor argument.
Moris were nerfed in the document. Significantly. The context in which they are "cool" in the document, is the animation of the mori, which is pretty cool.
Hex changes allow for counterplay when it comes to totems, and force survivors to treat them as an actual secondary objective in the game. It is no longer knowing every totem spot on the map and just checking them, it is now interactable. Sure the times could be adjusted if the time change is to much, but in its current state hex totems are poor design. Maybe this is or isn't the solution, but it is one presented.
Killer buffs are to make the killer side feel much more consistent, especially for the weak killers (I.e Doctor, Trapper, and Wraith are the big 3.) There were also killer nerfs within the document to the Hag, Huntress, and Hillbilly. There were also numerous survivor buffs, and indirect nerfs to killers with the high number of perk changes for survivor.
Toolboxes, again is misleading, but an overall buff. Just because BNP was nerfed, does not mean toolboxes overall were nerfed. In fact, items in general were buffed when finding them in game, and toolboxes got an additional add-on that allows for 50 charges to be added to a toolbox with both charge add-ons instead of 45.
Clarify me if I'm wrong, but was your intention to prove that the document is killer bias?
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The stupid Mori still encourages tunneling, all for the lame animation.
Totems are fine the way they are, its just a thing to nullify ruin or noed, you propose to punish the survivor with a small skill check for no reason at all, the killer must risk something if he decides to use a hex based perk, and then you decide to bring offerings that put a ton of extra totems on the map, do you play survivor? We dont have 15 minutes to clean the whole map, it will make games long boring and tedious.
Time is precious so you cant waste so many time on totems while the killer is cruising the map, and why punish survs with skill checks and notifications? The killer is also a victim in the game, as much as survs and all of them are doing this game to please the entity.
Status effects are not killer-friendly??? Just let people play the game god dammit.
Good rank 2 Doctors can give hell, they dont need more buffs, just skilled players, same Wraith, has been like 5 months since I dont hear the bell and he is invisible everywhere.
Trapper relies on prediction, as much as Hag predicts and camp so they will never be top tier, not every killer has to be one.
You must understand this is not a competitive game, and most player base are casuals, with so many tools to make things extremely hard people will quit the game, if you are going to lose why even bother?
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Moris would slightly encourage tunneling in a way. Currently, they encourage tunneling significantly more. However, with the mori changes, tunneling is severely punished for simply going for an animation, as it becomes a practically normal game.
Yes, as I said I am rank 1 survivor. It's not designed to be perfect, however, I see your point. We could remove the offerings allowed for killer, and keep the ones for survivor. And we could also remove the skillcheck + noise etc. 15 minutes is a massive exaggeration, especially if 4 people are searching. Like I said, its designed to force a secondary objective in the game, and most totem perks should require a response.
Stating that rank x killer can give hell is an extremely poor argument. You can win with any of the killers at any ranks, however, the problem arises with fluidity and counterplay. Even if you can win with x killer at x rank, the fact that the wraith has near 0 mindgame, excluding red glow, when it comes to looping. Even with this change, the mindgame still is not great, as the base forces him to remain in cloak. (I understand the pink add-on which could be changed). Doctor has so many fluidity problems, the change helps him with these. The buff to base shock range is to actual let his power be usable at non short loops (75% of the loops in the game)
The problem with the trapper is not prediction. This was mentioned or even suggested anywhere within the changes. The changes are to allow him to start with his traps, and not waste extreme amounts of time traveling across the map to collect traps. I agree not ever killer has to be top tier, and these changes do not make them close to top tier.
This is a terrible argument. When you use this argument you are insinuating that a game cannot have counterplay because it is not competitive. This fallacy is has the potential to breed bad design and is not healthy for any game. I understand the game is played by a lot of casuals. However, the truth about this game is in reality it has a steeper learning curve the more you rank up. The same fact will happen with the changes listed in the document on both sides. The entry learning curve does not change drastically, and it does make it slightly steeper the more you rank up, but that naturally happens as more stuff is added in a game. Eventually casuals will learn how to beat x play by x killer like normal. The drastic changes are the wraith's new ability, the doctor shock, and totems will affect more games than any, however, survivors will learn to deal with these. This also does not address the rank either, as even matchmaking still assures fair games for survivors and killers, especially at lower ranks. Therefore, the barrier for entry does not change drastically.
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commodious is 15% bonus, socket swivels is 15% bonus, and clean rag is 10% bonus. total 40% bonus.
Engineer's toolbox is 25% bonus but only 80 charges instead of 180 that commodious has. so the fastest engineers is 50% bonus where as the fastest commodious is 40%. commodious repairs an entire second gen though.
BNP is 1 time 20 seconds off a generator. So commodious socket swivels BNP makes 1 gen take 41.5 seconds and a second gen take 61.5 seconds. Normally would be 160 seconds for both gens but was 103 seconds instead. commodious clean rag socket swivels does the two gens in 114 seconds. So the BNP is only 9 seconds faster, and is one use, so it cant be taken out of the game after you use it and is an ultra rare. That's right the ultra rare speed addon makes it a whole 9 seconds quicker than a brown one and you lose it when you use it.
Meanwhile with the engineer's toolbox bnp socket swivels (40% faster repair speed + BNP effect). You repair 1 gen in 37.1 seconds. Which was only 4.5 seconds faster than the commodious and you only got 1 gen out of it. Then Engineer's socket swivel clean rag gets you 1 gen in 53.3 seconds(50% repair speed bonus). BNP is a little better on this toolbox because this toolbox inexplicably only has 80 charges.
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He would nerf moris in his proposal. So it wouldn't be so bad to survivors anymore.
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Legion needs a huge rework/buff set, to their addons and kit, but you just gave an addon with a new status effect you came up with. That is not helping at all.
I disagree with Flip Flop, but that's because I've been able to make the most of it as it is now.
Dying light is fine. It's one of the few perks that made Tombstone Myers viable (just a little bit).
I like the majority of your ideas, especially hiding totems and making them have skill checks.
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Beautiful read, really enjoyed it and would love to see all of these things added into the game.
Your totem idea is similar to one I made a while ago but probably better. Mine was have totems change per map lol so on the hospital map the totem could be a wheelchair or a broken TV but having things to search and there might be a totem inside is SO MUCH BETTER <3
Territorial Imperative--how big is the marker and what does it look like? I love Basement builds so this change worried me a little bit but is still an overall improvement, beautiful change. But what does the marker look like, can I hide it in plain sight at the foot of the Basement stairs?
I don't pray but I pray these changes are made, it would help the game health so much, the loops, the windows, the pallets, the perks, everything felt good to read. I want to play this game lol I want to play that game every day because it felt like everyone mattered and understood our problems.
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This is an incorrect computation, and I think the language the game uses is mostly to blame. The bonus is to repair speed, not to generator completion. So a standard repair is 1 charge/second and a generator takes 80 seconds to complete. Therefore, 40% bonus = 1.4 charges/second. So now, let us compare BNP + Swivel on both Commodious and Engineer's vs. Swivel + Rag.
(The following computations are made under the assumption that both BNP skill checks are successful, no great skill checks are hit during repairs, solo gen repair, and no other perk bonuses/debuffs come into effect.)
(25% of a generator = 20 seconds. The symbol "~" means approximately)
Commodious BNP + Swivel: Brand New Part completes 25% of the generator across 5 seconds. Combined with the 1.3 charge/second during this 5 second period, the generator gains an additional 6.5 charges. This means, after the 5 seconds of installation, the generator is 33% complete. This means it takes an additional 41 seconds to complete the generator, bringing a grand total of 46 seconds to complete a generator. (1.3 * 5) = 6.5 , (80 - 20 - 6.5) = 53.5 , (53.5/1.3) ~ 41 , (41 + 5) = 46
Engineer's BNP + Swivel: Brand New Part completes 25% of the generator across 5 seconds. Combined with the 1.4 charge/second during this 5 second period, the generator gains an additional 7 charges. This means, after 5 seconds of installation, the generator is 34% complete. This means it takes an additional 38 seconds to complete the generator, bringing a grand total of 43 seconds. (1.4 * 5) = 7 , (80 - 20 - 7) = 53 , (53/1.4) ~ 38 , (38 + 5) = 43
Commodious Swivel + Rag: The total bonus from this is a 40% increase in repair speed. This means it takes 57 seconds to complete a generator. (80/1.4) ~ 57
Engineer's Swivel + Rag: The total bonus from this is a 50% increase in repair speed. This means it takes 53 seconds to complete a generator. (80/1.5) ~ 53
In terms of single generator completion, the Brand New Part allows for a generator to be completed minimum 10 seconds faster in both instances. However examining charges from both of them we can see their utility across multiple generators.
(The following computations are made under the same presumptions of the first computations. The base charge consumption rate of a toolbox is 1 charge of toolbox/1 charge of repair)
Commodious BNP + Swivel: The first generator utilizes 60 charges worth of the toolbox. It does not use 80, because the 25%, or 20 seconds, gained from the Brand New Part do not count toward charge consumption. This means your toolbox will be left with 120 charges. This means you can repair an entire additional generator, leaving you with 40 charges. This means with this combination, under the stated assumptions, this combination can complete approximately 2.5 generators while leaving 1 charge.
Engineer's BNP + Swivel: The first generator utilizes 60 charges, just like the last one. This means you can complete approximately 1/4 of the second generator, as you are left with 20 charges on the toolbox. Overall 1.25 generators can be completed.
Commodious Swivel + Rag: This is a straight shot. Each generator utililzes 80 charges, meaning you can complete approximately 2.25 generators while leaving 1 charge.
Engineer's Swivel + Rag: This unfortunately means you can complete approximately 1 generator with this combination.
This test tells that you can complete the most progress with Commodious BNP + Swivel, however there is one more stat to look at, which is overall time save.
(The following computations are conducted under the same presumptions as the previous two. The final number is the total time save across the number of possible generators completed. The forumla at the end is written in "1st Gen Time Save + 2nd Gen Time Save + X Gen Time Save. The non BNP equations are simplified, as there are not special conditions needing to be accounted for in the equation.)
Commodious BNP + Swivel: Overall, the time save across the number of generators done is approximately 61.75 seconds. (80 - 46) = 34 , (80/1.3) = 61.5 , (80 - 61.5) = 18.5 , (0.5 * 18.5) = 9.25 , (34 + 18.5 + 9.25) = 61.75 seconds time save.
Engineer's BNP + Swivel: Overall, the time save is 42.75 seconds. (80 - 43) = 37 ,(80/1.4) = 57 , (80 - 57) = 23 , (23/4) = 5.75 , (37 + 5.75) = 42.75 seconds time save.
Commodious Swivel + Rag: Overall, the time save is 51.5 seconds. (80 * 2.25) = 180 , (180/1.4) = 128.5 , (180 - 128.5) = 51.5 seconds time save.
Engineer's Swivel + Rag: Overall, the time save 26.67 seconds. (80/1.5) = 53.33 , (80 - 53.33) = 26.67 seconds time save.
The point is, in all cases the Brand New Part makes it significantly faster. The efficiency of the toolboxes on the first generator is faster in both instances with BNP. The overall time save across all generators leans in BNP's favor by a significant margin. This is why the 5% nerf will help tremendously, as when numerous people run this combination, it makes it extremely hard to win, not only on the first gen by a significant margin, but overall time save still rules in their favor by a minimum of 10 seconds.
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I appreciate the compliment. I'm going to be honest, I thought the devs could come up with it. But it needs to be noticable, yet still hideable if not looking carefully. I'm thinking a plank of wood with a moose small moose skull attached to the top with fire in the eyes of the skull. But who knows? That's the fun in something like this haha. You could put it wherever you like, just remember it can be destroyed by a survivor.
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Regarding Dying Light, Dying Light is a terrible perk in its design. The problem is, it rewards the killer for tunneling which is not good for the survivor or the killer. Because of this, it is extremely unfun on both ends, and overall is just not used on the killer side.
Although you may get use out of Flip Flop, the perk is not usable in most scenarios. The problem is the killer has to leave someone on the floor for a minimum of 15 seconds to see any lasting impact on the wiggle timer. This way, you can see if other survivors can be potentially saved while they are wiggling, and the conversion rate is faster for the survivor. With this iteration, the conversion rate is 1:1 but is still capped at 50%.
NOW THE BIG BOI - Legion. Honestly, Legion's power is an extremely obscure power. It gives map pressure, and causes the game to be slowed down a decent amount when going for multiple survivors, but other than that, he is an actual M1 killer. The reason I did not buff or change his power at all, is because A) I do not know what I would do to it to make it usable to catch a survivor who is injured, B) If I did come up with a solution, I could not guarantee it would remain fun for the survivors, (Looking at last iteration) C) I do not think he really needs it. He has a power that can significantly slow the game down that allows you to have enough time to get basic red glow mindgames if you are fast enough. I get he definitely is not a great killer, probably falls right in the middle or bottom of mid tier, but his power is a unique form of map pressure. I will definitely give it more thought now that you bring it up though.
Thanks for the compliment :D
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The point still stands that 10 seconds additional time save by an ultra rare isn't very significant and nerfing them more only means that they'll be even less worth using than they already are compared to addons that aren't single use.
Yes, using 4 of them does remove a significant amount of time, but I literally haven't seen 4 BNPs used in the same match since they got nerfed to not do a whole gen.
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Over the course of the game, the 10 seconds is significant. Time is extremely valuable in this game, and 10 seconds could be the time it takes to walk to a generator from a hook, or the difference between havinng to slug someone to stop the final generator or having enough time to hook them. However, this extra 10 seconds is not the conncern. The reason the Commodious + Rag + Swivels is fine, is because the time saved is spread even and is gradual. With the Brand New Part, it is gradual across the generators without the BNP and is extremely fast on the generator that it's installed on. 30+ seconds removed off of a generator solo is massive, especially in the early game. Even with just 1, the time save is enourmous at an instant speed. The 5% nerf would still make it more of a time save overall, however, it would make the instant speed installation able to interrupted more often.
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Man.... that's a butt ton of stuff. I really like the bloodpoint changes for survivors. I also like the consistent changes to the chests and I think it will spice games up a bit. Perhaps the totem searchable times are a bit much, but I don't think the document was going to be perfect. The totem idea is extremely nice though. Nice job!
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Thanks man! Bloodpoints for survivors are lacking right now, so just trying to increase the amount.
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That first text literally say's nothing but "I main Nurse and the Spirit!"
Also, since I see terrible rank 1 to 20 I'm not impressed by that fact. Bravo, you can play 12h a day. I have my house to take care of, school, a job and friends to entertain.
What is this ppl ?
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Dont main nurse or spirit lmao. Mainly play Plague and New Freddy. I wish people like you would add something to a conversation vs complaining about a post that you more than likely did not read. It'd be much more productive on both ends if you chose to discuss vs whine. :/
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Thanks :D. Again, the document is not perfect, and the totems might require a bit to much time. But who knows, we would not really know until it is implemented in a test run. We would have to see :D
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I read it and it's mainly "only the Nurse and spirit are viable higher up!" Which isn't true.
Also, I wish ppl like you would get good and stop complaining.
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