With the introduction of a heal over time perk, should insta heal add-ons be made into HoTs as well?
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You know it won't happen that way.
Look, you and I are just going to have to agree to disagree. I'm more into the concept of tweaking things slightly in order to keep from going too far. Being creative with the tweaks to not only move towards balance, but create fun and creative gameplay. I think it calls for a surgeon's scalpel, not a butcher's cleaver.
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I wish I could easily create a flow chart, but let me try anyway and see how this works
Should Insta-heals be changed to heal over time?
No, because then it wouldn't be an insta-heal. ✔️
Yes, because they're too powerful and game breaking (sigh) ❌
Since you think they're too powerful and game breaking, would you also be in favor of changing OTHER game breaking things like Ebony Moris, Iri Heads, Omega blinks, one shot clown bottles, etc?
No, those things are perfectly fine. (sigh) ❌
Yes, I would be willing to discuss nerfing or tweaking those as well. ✔️(here's someone you can have a rational conversation with)
Why do you feel those things are perfectly fine but an insta-heal is not.
The killer should be the power role ❌ (Abort, abort. leave that conversation immediately because this person is power tripping and thinks the game should be unbalanced for their side)
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Here's a tweak: Insta-heals now take 12 seconds to kick in after use.
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Oh, well people are going to whine no matter what. I dont disagree with you that killers are whiny and a lot of the things they claim they want are actually bad for the game but I understand why they can feel that way.
The salt that a lot of people experience in this game is cyclical, which leads to a lot of hypocrisy. I've seen it happen a lot. Somewhere someone delivers a salty message, "toxic genrushers", "tunneling pos no skill killer" "pallet looping noob" whatever it is is often said when it didn't actually happen that way. So what goes through a lot of peoples heads is, "If I'm going to be called "X" insult regardless if I actually do it, then why not actually do it?". The salty whiny people are the ones that give in to that thought.
Honestly though I've never understood why people complain about genrushing or pallet looping. Sure it's annoying but what else are survivors to do? There isn't often a context where those aren't the most optimal things to do. Gens are the primary objective and pallets/looping is the best weapon against killers.
However complaints to killers are extremely context based and often are mislabeled because the survivor can't actually see the context.
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When it's just the 1 survivor and killer left and the survivor has a key, there is literally nothing the killer can do to stop that survivor escaping out the hatch. Hence why I included it.
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"No, because then it wouldn't be an insta-heal."
Isn't that the point?
"Yes, because they're too powerful and game breaking (sigh)."
But this is true, no?
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Here's a compromise, if the survivor is in dying state, one health state is healed instantly. Beyond that, the heal takes 10 to 12 seconds to kick in.
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I would accept that compromise myself, but I would still personally like to bring it down a little further. What I would suggest: The heal-over-time continues even if a Survivor is downed. If the "heal over time" finishes while the Survivor is:
On the ground in the dying state - They immediately recover their health and get back up
While the Killer is carrying them or while they are on the hook - The health recovery is stored until that Survivor manages to wiggle free/get off the hook (similar to Adrenaline).
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There are 4 killers that have instant down in their base kit. You demand nerfs for these too ?
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No, Myers has to stalk people for half the game or so to profit from his power, Ghostface can literally be broken out of his power, Leatherface is a joke and Billy is loopable, needs some skill with aiming and understanding how he works and he has a drawback of charging up. They’re all counterable so I don’t think they should be nerfed. The items, add ons and offerings I mentioned earlier on the other hand have no counter whatsoever.
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The point of an inta-heal is to be instant. There's nothing wrong with the insta-heal as long as killers have insta-downs (both as add ons and as basekit for multiple killers)
Clearly you didn't follow the flow chart well. If you feel insta-heals are too powerful, would you also be in favor of nerfing insta-downs, ebony moris, iri heads, and other things that are more common and much more broken
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Most insta-downs in the game are not comparable to an insta-heal that you can use at any point you are injured.
And yes, I would.
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If you think those should be nerfed as well, then I'd also be willing to lose insta-heals. One question though.
Which insta-downs would you consider not comparable out of curiosity? Insta-heal is gone the second you use it.
Iri heads (which most huntresses will also use with a belt to have 3 hatchets) can be used throughout the entire match they're brought in.
Same as the Clown bottle (afterpiece tonic I think it's called)
Of course there's the 2 chainsaw killers which isn't even an add on and is in their basekit as something they can do every match.
Myers and Ghostface both have to stalk for theirs but it's easy to get at least twice a match
All of those are easily more powerful than a one time use insta-heal.
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I'd say Iri-Head + Infantry Belt is on the level of Heal and should be nerfed in some way.
Clown Bottle add-on is fiddly, given that the bottles are not meant to be as precise in aiming as the hatchets (even with the wonky hitboxes). To be close enough to consistently use it to down them, you're basically just the Plague at that point. It's not even Clown's best add-on (that would be Flask of Bleach).
Leatherface is a bad killer. One of the weakest, depending on who you ask. Billy is good, but the map pressure is a big part of that. The ins
Myers can be good if the Survivors have one or more weak links, but against solid and aware Survivors, it can be a challenge for Myers to stalk. Not impossible, but definitely a challenge. Ghostface has similar issues, only a) he can be locked out of his ability b) he has less time to hit people who are exposed c) he doesn't gain the faster lunge and vaulting Myers get for exposing people.
I mean, you just said that Leatherface is stronger than a Survivor wielding an insta-heal. Do you really think many Survivors would honestly agree with you on that?
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Again, the Killer needs to be 4x stronger than any single survivor (and thus each side taken together is overall equally powerful). And a Killer Power should be stronger than any item or perk(mathematically ignoring powers will put the Killer at a massive disadvantage which the Power is supposed to make up for).
In other words the instant downs from powers are fine because the game is already balanced around the existence of high impact powers. If the game was not balanced around them then this would be another story.
So that leaves Killer addons and Killer perks which even qualify for being as strong or stronger than an instant heal. Specifically it would need to be strong enough to single handedly put you ahead by 4-5ish extra hits (since pink instant heals can sometimes be used to get 2 HP).
Some Killers are at base behind on hits compared to the ideal. These Killers would be expected to get more hits as a result of addons without being broken. They are still problems but for reasons beyond the scope of this thread.
I'd estimate that the following addons would meet those requirements and thus should be nerfed:
- Omega blink Nurse (technically a combination but it gets enough downs via the addons to still qualify)
- Prayer Beads
- Iridescent Hatchet (Infintry belt makes it dis-proportionally bad to face as well)
- 4 Blink Nurse
That's it.
Other things CAN get 4 or more extra hits, but they wouldn't be expected to in the average game. And there are plenty of combinations of things that will get 4 or more extra hits but the fact that it's taking multiple slots keep it in check and combining survivor perks can keep you safe from a similar quantity of hits between all 4 survivors if you are willing to spend the perks on it.
Things like these include:
- Enduring + SF
- Tuft of Hair/Tombstone piece + J.Myers Memorial
- "The Ghost" - Soot + Coxcombed Clapper
- Borrowed Time + DS + Adrenaline
- Billy Insta-Saw addons (borderline. Would be ok with a slight nerf)
Probably more combinations I'm not thinking of. Basically when talking about combinations divide the number of downs by the number of items in the combination.
Things like Omega Blink and Iridescent are strong enough that being a part of a combination still put them well over the threashold. But most things do not.
I didn't include the Pinky finger addons cuz I don't know the numbers for it and thus can't evaluate it properly.
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I just had this thought yesterday :)
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Oh yeah almost forgot. Mori's (besides cypress) and Key's (besides dull) are both stronger than instant heals and should be nerfed.
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I’ve never understood why insta-heals are seen as OP when killers have ample insta-down addons/powers.
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