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Perks shouldn't be tied to DLC Characters
Comments
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I don't even need to watch this video to know how stupid this contention is. So many crybabies that don't wanna part with their $5 bill. Well guess what if you cant pay $5 every now and again you can't afford a game that keeps updating it's content. Get a job, or if you cant or don't want to, don't try to make it the problem of employed people like BHVR. they're busy working.
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Perks from purchase-only DLCs still appear in the shrine. And the original killers and their perks are obtainable with shards. I don't feel like this is pay to win.
Do you have certain perks in mind where you are seeing a problem?
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BBQ is a great example because you have to literally pray to the bloody Entity that BBQ is one of the four perks in the Shrine out of 125 perks.
There should be a reroll mechanic for the Shrine for 500 Shards. :)
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the video mentions BBQ and Chili, which can give 100% more bloodpoints, thus reducing the grind. and while yes perks can show up in the shrine, the chances of the specific perk you want appearing can be very rare, and you have to wait a week in hopes one of only 4 perks is one you want or one that can help you win. i mean, how often are Hex: Ruin or BBQ in the shrine? not necessarily guaranteed wins, sure, but they both meta perks for a reason.
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The DLC is pretty cheap for what it is 6$-11$, your getting a survivor, a killer, and 6 perks, all DLC can also be purchased within the in-game store using iridescent shards.
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i can agree with the reroll idea. but i also think that because the game has grown, so should the shrine. maybe be 8 perks instead of 4? just to increase the chances further of getting the perk you want.
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Unfortunately, the glory days of BBQ are over since nowadays everybody is hiding their aura. Other tracking perks are much better if you want to win a match.
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except licensed DLCs. also the grind for that can be quite a while for more casual players.
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Most killers, me included, don't use the aura part of BBQ — it's the bonus BP we are after to be honest. :)
Furthermore, you do occasionally get a survivor who doesn't hide their aura so it's something!
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@NMCKE It's not a useless perk but you can't compare it to the old MoM which was available only with money. If anything was "pay to win", then it was the old MoM.
BBQ aside, do you think any other perks are problematic?
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There’s decisive I guess
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DS is pretty good at low ranks, and sometimes at higher ranks. You can use it to bait killers, or do game winning chases against them.
Save The Best For Last is very underrated for M1 killers because you would get hits that you normally wouldn't get as the killer.
Spirit Fury is decent by itself, but combined with Enduring you will be able to either waste the survivors' pallets faster or down survivors from dropping pallets on you.
Deliverance is not bad because you can unhook yourself when someone else doesn't want to go for the unhook. This is really powerful because this takes the killer's pressure away even when you're hooked.
We're Going to Live Forever is not as good as BBQ, but it's something to cut down the grind if you main survivor (you even see recommend leveling David King for that reason). I have the special edition of Dead by Daylight so I get him for free, but this is mainly considering PC players.
Hex: Ruin is pretty decent at high ranks because it slows the game down for killers who can't do map pressure as well as other killers. This is another luxury of having the special edition of Dead by Daylight because this is free for console players.
I could go on and on, but these perks are somewhat pay to win if you don't have the money to buy the characters.
All in all, I prefer the bonus 100% BP is baseline for everyone. :)
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Yeah, okay.
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@NMCKE From those perks you mentioned:
I can agree with DS. STBFL is a nice perk indeed, but not as super-powerful as DS or the old MoM. The other perks are obtainable through playtime, no need to spend money.
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Afew things to note. Afew of these perks are tired to original characters, which can be obtained with shards. If you want Ruin for example, you can buy Hag with shards.
You also mentioned David King's WGLF. I understand the mistake here, but just a heads up... David King came out with The Huntress, and was a Free DLC. This is true for PC as well.
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I <3 STBFL
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Considering GOOD high rank players can win WITHOUT perks, I'd say no.
Its not pay to win if it's not a drastic advantage/needed to win.
Perks only supplement areas of your game that you lack in.
Are they fun? Yes
Are some better used than others? Absolutely.
Do you NEED perks to do well? Hell no.
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I like STBFL, but my newfound love belongs to Infectious Fright. <3
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I actually prefer this video from him. Same basic topic, though.
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As someone who has a job. I wouldn't drop 5 dollars on this ######### even if it was on sale for a quarter. I better off getting half a gram.
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Behavior does things pretty well IMO. The first video brought up how maps are free and dont require DLCs. Anyone thats gotten a COD game typically knows that if maps were tied to DLC, the community would end up being split between who has the maps and who doesnt, with more and more splits being made for each map. You wouldnt be able to play with your friends if they dont have the same DLCs as you.
As far as them releasing new content and expecting you to pay for additional things... That should really be a given. People who bought the base game did so knowing what characters were included in that. That value of those characters doesnt change when they release new content. For some reason, people also bring up the total cost of all DLC in the game, claiming that is the TRUE cost of the game. In reality, many of these characters and perks can be gotten with shards, not including the shrine. Also, you dont have to buy anything if you arnt interested in that particular character/perks. To include the pricetag of things you arnt interested in buying as the "true cost" is just being deceitful.
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@LordGlint I have no issue with DLCs on their own. I've bought enough DLCs for games over the years.
But even before Space Coconut pointed out how in many instances Behavior doesn't fix a problem but instead sells you a DLC Perk to fix the problem (maybe he should have called it Pay-to-Fix instead of Pay-to-Win), I already noticed that way back in late 2018.
And that is what I've a growing issue with. I've said before that Behavior has me flashing back more and more to a pseudo-EA model (and Cote used to work for EA), and that is a huge reason why.
The wife and I make six-figures a year. We have disposable income and can easily become whales in any game. But I'm less inclined to support a company who uses DLC content as a means to fix problems that the Devs should be fixing normally, as opposed to a company who releases DLC simply for new content.
Yes, the DLCs for DbD have new content. But Space Coconut is correct in what he says about Behavior using paid DLC perks as fixes to underlying problems in the game, instead of actually performing development fixes for them.
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Then why are you here if it's #########?
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Can you provide an example of a perk that must be bought to obtain, that fixes a problem that the devs havent fixed/arnt working on fixing?
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Sometimes I have to go without until I see it in the shrine, then I'm able to get the perks. It's okay not to get everything then and there sometimes being patient helps.
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@LordGlint I think his video mentions examples well enough. I'll leave it with his examples since I agreed with them. Not being snarky, I'm just back and forth from the PC helping the wife with housework, and don't have time to list and explain the ones I see that way.
But I agreed with his video examples.
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His video mentioned BBQ for the sake of reducing grind, and Ruin for the sake of slowing gens.
While BBQ cant be obtained outside cash or the shrine...Behavior IS addressing the issue its "fixing" in the next patch.
As for ruin, the only other perk mentioned in the video... Hag is purchasable with shards. Considering how often ruin gets destroyed early and the killer then has to spend 90% of the game with only 3 perks, to insist that its required is ironic. As someone who use to play Old Freddy not using Ruin and still managed to play at rank 1... I tend to roll my eyes at the idea that you HAVE to use ruin or HAVE to use the top tiered killers to do well.
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you don't need any perks to win as survivor or killer. every time I have a daily for killers I don't have upgraded (all of them except nurse and Myers) I play perkless and feel totally fine. It's harder for surv to go perkless
eventually perks are just crutches that mean that the answer is all the same:
get good lmao:>
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If you're buying in half gram increments, you probably cant afford to just drop 5 bucks on a game regardless.
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Players: All these new perks are trash
Also Players: Yea, yea definitely pay to win no doubt about it
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the hag is obtainable with shards yes, but this is something that game companies do. can it be obtained without money? yes, absolutely, but how long will it take? how long do you think it would take a more casual gamer to get the hag? someone who only plays two or three matches a day? it would take a while, and thats on purpose. what do you think a casual gamer would rather do, wait a long while until they have enough shards, or drop a few bucks and just get her right away? thats how this stuff is designed, so they can get money from people who want to spend it, but people who dont want to spend hours and hours a day playing.
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Well yea, because the DLC would never be bought again if it only took you a couple of days to get the DLC.
They still put time and effort into that DLC, they want to encourage purchases, almost like they're a business.
and you definitely don't need ruin to win at any rank, this whole false narrative that ruin is some how necessary to win so it's not pay to win is ridiculous.
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i dont think ruin is necessary. and yes, theyre a business, but they can make money without being unfair. i think the DLC prices are fine, but i dont think perks should be locked behind characters or the rather rare chance of it being one of four perks that show up every week. it was rather lucky BBQ got on the shrine a week or two ago. now i dont have to buy a character i dont want just for a perk to reduce the grind. but it should be available without having to buy a character or the stars aligning.
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If you want to main Hag or something and want to play her NOW, then sure... throw down afew bucks (assuming your not on console, in which shes free). If your under the impression that the perks she comes with in at all NEEDED... That's where id disagree.
The fact that games have grind doesnt mean they should just give away their matierial to players who dont want to put in the time and grind for it. As someone who use to play Warframe for several years and obtain each character without ever breaking the bank, I grew quite use to this idea.
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alright, fair enough. still, i dont think perks themselves should be so much a grind. if you dont want to play Hag or any other killer, but want their perk, you have to work towards... what is it, 8,000 shards? something like that? then you have to level that character up, THEN you can use that perk on the character you'd rather play. and if you want multiple perks from multiple different killers, its going to take a long long while.
grind is fine, im not saying i want everything easily, but there comes a point where its a bit much. personally i feel DBD is a bit much
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but they aren't necessary to "win" they just help you, so it's not pay to win is it. =/
People are using Pay2Win very loosely here.
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@LordGlint He mentioned others besides just Ruin and BBQ in a list of issues vs perk fixes. Might have been in the OPs video, I don't know, To be honest, the two kind of blurred together for me.
Regardless, DbD is just not a game I'll take seriously. I've already decided to just play casually and mess around (or meme around, whatever it's called) and just stay in the gray and yellow ranks. Won't be hard, since I don't have a lot of play time between rank resets every month anyway.
But that also means that whereas in the past I bought every DLC for the Perks and to maintain the collection, Perks are a lot less meaningful to me now. So now, whether or not I buy a DLC is purely based on the theme. I'm not a fan of Ghostface or Stranger Things, so those two are a skip for me.
Playing casually in-between other games also means I'll skip buying the Battlepass. I refuse to grind them anyway. I gave Paladins, Realm Royale, and Apex all one try on each of their Battlepass offerings. They're not worth the grind time.
Hell, if I want to grind to that degree, I'll go play Path of Exiles or some other ARPG.
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Very similar thing that I tell ppl on Warframe. With Warframe, if you arnt willing to "rush" the building time of a character, itll take you at least 3 and a half days. If your constantly staring at that timer going down and drooling over being able to use it...itll go by slowly. If you instead just play and enjoy what you have, or line up multiple things to play with at the same time...waiting for 1 thing would be so bad.
For DBD, I tend to rotate between multiple characters. I play a little bit of Shape, Pig, Huntress and Freddy (I screw around with Bubba every now and then after rank resets). The draw here being just PLAYING. I get excited over getting a map offering on Myers letting me play a "scratched mirror game" because I find it fun. The bloodpoints and shards that result from that...are a byproduct.
This screenshot was JUST taken, take note of the bloodpoints and shards...
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im not saying its pay to win, BBQ is pay for convenience because it reduces the grind. this is the same stuff going on for Fallout 76 right now. the stuff theyre adding doesnt necessarily make you win, but it sure helps against the people who dont pay.
i dont think any perk is "get this and you win" level. but some perks definitely help more than others. this is why i think all teachable should just be purchasable with shards in their own perk store type thing. and only shards, and not a ridiculous amount. then i wouldnt have to wait for the shrine or buy a character i dont want for a single perk.
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ok, yeah i see your point. but also while i was taking note of the bloodpoints and shards, i also noticed your level. its quite high so you've definitely taken some time to get that many. but i do see your point, i suppose given the amount of perks in this game and how long it takes to get even all the non teachables, this isnt a game people should play without expecting grind anyway.
still, there are the licensed characters which cant be grinded for and require either money or luck if you want the perks. this is why i think all perks should just be purchasable with shards on their own. without needing to get the DLC. i didnt get Pig because i liked the perks, i got her cause i thought she would be fun. I didn't get bubba because i dont think hes fun, but i got lucky BBQ was in the shrine. newer players might have to wait for months or even a year though. thats not grind, thats just extreme patience. that, i have a problem with.
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I see the mixup here, the video YOU posted has other perks, while OPs video only has Ruin and BBQ mentioned. The video you posted mentions afew perks which the devs have already addressed the "problems" that Coconut claims the perks fix.
Hangman's trick counters Sabo- Sabo hasnt been a problem since hooks were changed to be able to respawn. The devs changing the hooks to respawn after awhile was the devs fixing sabo without requiring a perk
Coulphobia counters healing at pallet loops- The devs have been working on reducing the amount of "safe pallets" on maps, starting with Badham. Safe pallets are the only ones that make it possible to heal at them without the killer being forced to break them. Any other pallet, the survivor must continue moving and doesnt have time to heal at them.
Mad Grit counters body blocking- Afew patches back, the devs reworked hook spawns so that they have a minimum and maximum amount of hooks per map, even when using offerings. This reduces the chances of being unable to reach a hook if the survivors decided to stack hook offerings. While It may still be possible to stop a hook if 3 teammates stand infront of the hook, Id hardly call this a problem since the killer still has multiple ways to deal with this. They can either hit the survivors and get some free dmg in at the expense of possibly losing the survivor being carried...or, drop the survivor and start going ham at the survivors who are now out of position
Point being, the devs ARE addressing actual problems with the game instead of just fixing them with perks.
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@LordGlint You actually bring up good points that I had overlooked. Thank you.
And you know what, I'm going to take what you said and look into this further. Not to try to prove you wrong, but rather because I'm likely being unfair to the Dev team here.
And I'd rather be fair, especially since now that I've uninstalled Overwatch and Blizzard entirely, I've considered making DbD my primary game. I'd just rather not fall into another Overwatch situation where the Dev Team is basically out of their league with the game.
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I could get down on the idea of obtaining perks using shards in the store, and take away the RNG aspect of the shrine. Yeah, Ive played this game for about 1 year now, and typically dont buy abunch of cosmetics (the Suzie cosmetic in the picture being one of the few exceptions). I dont play survivor much, so often times I'll use shards for survivor perks in the store so I dont have to lvl a survivor that I dont want to play. For killers... Ive been trying to play each of them, so I dont use shards on killer perks anymore.
Your point on licensed killers does hold water though, these are killers unavailable through shards, as well as their perks (apart from extreme RNG from the shrine). A perk store like you mentioned would be handy to address that. As far as the killers themselves... None of them are top tier. The devs managed to avoid having pay to win killers, by making all the best killers free (except Spirit, who you can grind for with shards). Huntress, Nurse and Billy all come with the base game on PC, while Hag is included for console.
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what i was saying with the licensed killers is im fine with having to pay money for them, the characters themselves. i just wish their perks were obtainable through a non randomized perk store. i know they arent top tier, but some perks, mainly BBQ, can be alluring. i just want to be able to get it without the waiting and without buying a character i wouldnt want, thats all i meant by that.
basically, i think all perks should be able to be obtained with shards at any time you want, and the licensed characters are fine being purchase only, and original characters being purchasable or obtained with shards at any point is fine.
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I appreciate the cool headed conversation. Alot of ppl on these forums tend to get kinda hot headed and communication just breaks down. I say this alot on these forums, but as someone who hit rank 1 first using OG Freddy without unlocking ruin... I have a hard time believing XYZ perk is required and XYZ killers are the only viable killers at rank 1. I tend to stick with mid and low tier killers. Ive tried dipping my toes in with playing Billy, Spirit and Nurse but... The learning curve is abit steep, lol. Highest tier killer I like to use now is NEW Freddy.
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I understand what your saying. I was agreeing with you on the store idea, that would be cool. Id forsee however the price of perks to raise abit if they were available like that.
My point on the DLC killers themselves was that the devs made a wise choice at not making any of them "the best" killer. Its hard to say your not pay to win if the best killer in the game is cash only. As it stands however...Nurse is free, lol.
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Sooooo, it's not pay to win.
and aside from the aura reading the bonus bp you get from BBQ you can get from Puddings/Cakes/Streamers.
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@LordGlint I hear you. I'm almost 47 years old and feel like a decent debate or even a civil discourse is a rare breed today.
I feel the same about Billy, Nurse, and Spirit. They're just too much of a learning curve for me. I much prefer Doc, Myers, and Leatherface, which is why I don't ever want to hit the high ranks. Not unless I end up having the time to actually get that good at the game. Unfortunately, one can rank up faster than one's actual skill develops. I really would prefer a tougher ranking system for just that reason.
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Thats one thing I think Overwatch did well, was a ranking system. It didnt let everyone and their mom to hit top 500 (Pretty sure Gold was average) and had rank rewards. I use to have a list of grievances about DBD, but that list is slowly getting checked off by the devs. Cant wait to see what they do about Doc.
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indeed you can, and you could also stack it with BBQ for even more.
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