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Changes that should've been done to LEGION
As a Legion main, I think that Legion lost most of his identity with the update. In reality, I can't have fun with him anymore and I know there are more people here that agree with this statement and feel the exact same. Now, I want all your opinions on this. But please, give CONSTRUCTIVE feedback.
In my honest opinion, this is how this killer should've been changed in a balanced and fun perspective (for both sides).
This includes all the important numbers that you need to know.
NOTE: All of these changes should be tested to polish some values, but they should stay fairly the same.
Legion's Base Stats
- 4.4 m/s
- 24 meters terror radius
Deep Wounds technicallity
- Performing the Mending action takes 12 seconds to perform
- Survivors can't perform certain interactions until they finish mending
- These are the interactions they cannot perform while experiencing "Deep Wounds":
- Healing themselves and other Survivors
- Sabotage Hooks
- Repair Generators
- Cleanse Totems
- Use any of their Items
- The deep wound timer does not go down within 20 meters from the killer
- The Deep Wound timer DOES NOT go down while mending.
Feral Frenzy technicallity
- 5.28 m/s.
- Lasts 6 seconds.
- Total Frenzy charge time is 15 seconds.
- Needs 30% of the bar to be activated.
- Missing an attack in feral frenzy reduces the power gauge by 50% of it's REMAINING amount and has 60% cooldown reduction.
- 2 seconds fatigue.
- Can vault windows and pallets (vault duration - 0.9 seconds and 1.1 seconds, respectively).
- Frenzy power gauge amount lost when landing an attack outside Frenzy:0%
- Killer Instinct has the orange aura back.
- When hitting a survivor in the Deep Wound state while in Feral Frenzy, the deep wound bar loses 10 seconds (30 in total).
- Vaulting while in Feral Frenzy does not stop the draining of the bar.
- When "Killer Instinct" is activated, the power bar drains at a 50% ratio.
- Manually cancelling Feral Frenzy does not deplete the power bar.
- Hitting an exposed or injured survivor while in Feral Frenzy reduces the timer to 20 seconds (hits still reduce 10 seconds) . Both effects do NOT stack. (Basically, old frank's mixtape to injured and exposed). Is a good tradeoff, basically a hit for a hit.
- You can search lockers and break generators while in Feral Frenzy.
- Power gauge refill starts when cooldown starts and not when it ends. Scratch marks (and bloodpools, with add-ons) still respawn after the fatigue ends.
Feral Frenzy description
When activating Feral Frenzy, The Legion enters a deadly rage. While the power is active:
- The Legion sprints faster than base movement speed.
- The Legion can vault Windows and Pallets.
- Survivors' Scratch Marks are hidden from The Legion's view.
- Missing an attack has a reduced cooldown and takes half of the remaining power gauge.
- Manually canceling Feral Frenzy does not drain the power gauge.
While Feral Frenzy is active, hitting a Survivor who is not currently afflicted with the Deep Wound Status Effect:
- Applies the Deep Wound Status Effect.
- Injures the Survivor, if they are not already injured.
- Tremendously reduces the deep wound bar timer of an already injured or exposed survivor, . Does not stack.
- Refills The Legion's entire power gauge.
- Triggers "Killer Instinct", revealing the location of all Survivors who do not have the Deep Wound Status Effect applied and are within The Legion's Terror Radius.
- The power gauge drains at half speed until the power ends.
While Feral Frenzy is active, hitting a Survivor that is currently afflicted with the Deep Wound Status Effect:
- Depletes The Legion's entire power gauge and ends the power immediately.
- Reduces a portion of the survivor's Deep Wound timer.
Add-Ons for feral frenzy
ALL add-ons should be reverted to the old values/effects with the exception of:
- All the pins (should be as they are but apply the status effect when hitting someone for the 1st time), "The Legion Pin" time effect reduced to 45 seconds.
- Frank's Mixtape.
- Stab Wounds Study.
- Fuming Mixtape.
- Joey's and Julie's mixtape, that have the values (0,5 and 0,3 seconds).
- Cold Dirt
Fuming Mixtape
- Tremendously increases Feral Frenzy's speed.
- Blood pools are also hidden from the killer's view while in Feral Frenzy.
- Blood pools and scratch marks reappear when the cooldown ends.
Cold Dirt
- While using Feral Frenzy, the Repair Progress of Generators can be determined by the intensity of their Auras.
- You still see auras when Killer Instinct is activated.
Frank's Mixtape
- Moderately decreases the cooldown of Feral Frenzy (0,4 seconds).
- The power gauge draining stops when vaulting.
- Missing an attack ends Feral Frenzy.
Stab Wounds Study
All survivors in the deep wound state have the following penalties:
- The blurred vision is increased by a certain amount (no exact value to calculate, it's 100% on the devs to program it).
- Become oblivious while mending (not sure if it should be just while mending or when out of a chase because the chase mechanic is very exploitable).
- Tremendously suffer from the hemorrhage status effect(does not stack).
Old Legion's problems:
- Too weak
- His power is ONLY good for tunneling. Now he can spread hits much more easily as he was meant to.
- Moonwalking and spamming hits to get more distance exploits
- Unfun to play against. No killer should be unfun to play against but they should be annoying sometimes, after all, the killer is supposed to kill the survivors.
- No skill involved
- Frank's Mixtape
- Exposed has no sinergy (No build diversity).
- Injured survivors have no downside when being hit with Frenzy, compared to healthy. (Again, no build diversity)
Patched Legion's problems
- Lost his identity of a fast stabbing and agile killer.
- Very unfun to play as, continued to be unfun to play against.
- M1 basic killer after hitting survivors with his power.
- Too many downsides for a simple first hit power.
- Skill cap too low to perform well.
- Exposed has no sinergy (Again...no build diversity).
- Injured survivors have no downside when being hit with Frenzy, compared to healthy (And again).
- Frenzy is simply not dynamic.
With these changes, Legion has all of these problems solved. If you know more feel free to comment so we can discuss.
Now playing VERSUS Legion is also fun and a challenge to make him miss hits to lose his power (2 misses at max, changed with Frank's Mixtape).
I bet that this killer is high skill, high reward
Can be a Mid-Top tier killer.
Remember: Legion isn't supposed to hit all 4 survivors or even 3 every time he uses his power, instead, these changes make the usage of his power more dynamic and skill-based.
Comments
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Why make the mend bar go down while mending?
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Because the timer is already really big if you stay within 20 meters from the killer. It's only 12 to mend, so i think it isn't exploitable and makes it so that mending has a "brain side" into it, that is to choose the right spot to mend. It's also the subject that I'm most likely gonna change.
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Wait... It sounds like mend bar and deep wound bar are the same, I'm gonna change it.
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Wait, so we are going back to previous version BUT he cannot just moonwalk to down you?
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No. If Legion has the entire power bar you can make him lose 2 hits or 1 if he is far away from you , then he fatigues.
If below 50%, he misses and he loses the power. This is skill based and Legion needs to time it well and make sure he doesn't miss. Little power gauge, little time to hit someone.
Old Legion could spam and miss almost every time that you would go down, not with this one.
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You can also have the alternative play that is to cancel feral frenzy and go for a normal hit, if close enough.
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I like your suggestions but they won't do it. Survivor mains will cry again
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But i am right. This is going back to previous Legion BUT he has to be a little more patient, correct?
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Now that I read it again, yes. I stated that in the end of the post. I thought that you were saying that he would be badly designed like the old one. Bad reading, sorry.
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Why tho? They have counterplay now, and people that like a challenge can be more hyped.
And those who like to annoy the killer, making him miss, have their chance to fit in here too.
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I would put on ptb to try it.
But I would change it so hitting someone multiple times in a row doesn't have any effect.
Otherwise, If you frenzy and hit someone, they get deep wounds, you hit them again and their deep wounds would go down to 20 seconds.
Now you chase them from a bit further away for 9 seconds.
They are now going down to deep wounds without being able to mend in time.
And if you hit them again, they will go down no matter what
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I thought about mentioning things like these on the post. I wanted to say things like "All of these changes should be tested to polish some values." I'm gonna do that now. Thanks a LOT :)
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Just changed it so the timer does not go down while mending, a friend of mine already talked to me about that. I realise that it can be slightly exploited and we dont want that here.
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I'm personally not sold on the idea of making DW block interactions, I think it'd make it too similar to Madness
Instead this is my take on a more threatening version:
- DW applied by FF is 40s.
- You cannot mend yourself
- Performing the Mending action on a teammate takes 8 seconds to perform
- Performing any of the following actions cause the DW timer to progress four times the normal speed: repairing generators, sabotaging, cleansing totems, searching chests
- Performing any of the following actions cause the DW timer to tick twice as fast: Using items (flashlights, keys, maps), running, vaulting
- The deep wound timer is paused while inside the TR, in active chase or while getting mended
- Exception to the TR rule: performing any action with a progress bar (so you can't just repair gens with DW inside the TR)
One issue I can see with this idea is that 2v1 scenario would be legit unwinnable, if Legion ever finds one of them then he will get a read on the other guy and the one he tagged is stuck with an incurable affliction, forced to eventually go down. Which doesn't sound fair or fun.
So to that end I have two solution, either would work:
- You can self mend with medkits, 12s action. (Also, any perk that can heal one health state would also work, aka Self Care, Inner Strength, Adrenaline, etc)
OR
- You can hold M1 for 10s to perform 'Change bandage' action, refreshing your DW timer.
I think a DW like this would solve a few of Legion's problems:
- People can't really ignore bleed out or cheese it by staying inside TR
- DW wastes survivor's time without forcing them to hold M1 for mind-numbingly long periods
- Survivors are encouraged to meet up or stay close, spreading out means you prob won't be able to get rid of DW.
Post edited by phantasmal on0 -
Let's move it to here since this topic doesn't belong to the other discussion.
I didn't get what you mean by this
"In exchange, I would throw that missing hit penalty over board. Also that the power depletes if the Legion hits a injured survivor again, gives me a bit of a headache, if I think on how often I have encounter survivors that were just too far away from each other (so that tunneling was the only option, if you have not 2 or more see on the other site of the map doing gens or so"
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You have write:
When activating Feral Frenzy, The Legion enters a deadly rage. While the power is active:
- Missing an attack has a reduced cooldown and takes half of the total power gauge.
And what the rest matters: Sorry I have read it again, and I have read it wrong. So forget what I have write there. You have catch me off guard. I making me ready to sleep behind the screen, so... sorry :)
Still, the missing attack point... I think it should have no downsite. In exchange, I would trade that named totem destroy abilitie to survivors.
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Ok, now I get it. But the counterplay is all based in that missing hit, you can still miss once if you have more than 50%. There's still a room for error, it should be high risk, high reward. This gives counterplay and legion will be skill based, not like the one that we have now that is just bland and yeah. Also, if you want to m1 the survivor after frenzying, you have a reduced fatigue so it's fine.
Changing a totem for that is just a not worth trade, at all, for the survivor side and that will bring old legion's problems back: no counterplay.
If we want the fun and power we also need the counterplay, eliminating that would be a big mistake.
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Why is M1 attack still draining Frenzy? That mechanic is and always has been very silly.
And why is canceling it draining the rest of the bar? That was removed for a reason.
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1st question: Because due to the injured new interaction with feral frenzy, you can m1 and then power to get a huge advantage in the DW bar with the increased damage. With this, you get a small window to wait for your power to hit them again and you can't avoid fatigue that easily.
2nd question: So that you need to know when to chase them with your power or by m1ing them. It's another point that can increase the skillcap of the Legion. This is a matter of testing, because it sounds good on paper to me.
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1st one is a nonstarter. You already have a good reason not to M1 him like that specifically because in the time it would take to do that you could have just him them 3 times with Frenzy anyways.
All this does is punish someone who doesn't want to deal with the DW shenanigans.
2nd one was already shown to be bad in practice and again, M1ing was only a problem because it didn't work thus forcing him to use DW. You should be making it better not worse.
And either way here is an important question: How does any of this improve his lethality?
All of these limitations mean he is going to take forever to down someone. You haven't really changed anything from the Legions perspective other than making things way harder for him when it comes to actually downing people.
That's the number 1 thing these reworks are missing, a way for the Legion to get a down that doesn't take forever.
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I edited my post one time too many so it needed to be checked by mods, so you might have missed it. Therefore I'm gonna bump it :>
Also, am curious, what do you mean by this exactly:
While Feral Frenzy is active, hitting a Survivor who is not currently afflicted with the Deep Wound Status Effect:
- Considerably increases the damage applied to the deep wound bar, if already injured. Effect lasts until fully mended.
Do you mean that an injured target would start off with a shorter DW timer? Or FF attacks would deal more damage to targets who were already injured when hit with DW? The second one sounds kind of convoluted.
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By having a new sinergy when someone is injured, survivors will be forced to heal, and that takes time. It might not seem like it, but with the nerfs at healing it takes the time survivors should be on gens. No exploiting deep wounds so we are a good start as I see it.
It doesn't take forever to down someone, you even have 2 ways to down someone: by reducing the bar to 0 or by m1ing them with the low fatigue. Improved stall potential that can also be lethal.
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Reducing the bar to 0 is no faster than it was before, which was too slow, in fact now it's slower because you increased the fatigue when hitting them like that and also increased the bar requirement AND made pulling this entire thing off harder
Specifically it's 17 seconds of just being in stun animations at the very least.
And M1ing wasn't buffed at all either. In fact you nerfed that one too because now canceling drains the bar thus removing any snowball potential he could otherwise have.
I get that you want him to have counterplay but straight up restricting when he can use his power isn't going to work unless you also increase the reward, and the drain thing isn't enough, that's why I removed the drain and massively decreased the fatigue during Killer Instinct (I know that term doesn't work anymore but whatever it was an older post)
Unless I'm missing something I don't see how this buffs his ability to down at all baring specific perk combos (which IS something I like btw, keep that).
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The second one, I think the first one just lets people with 5 seconds to mend and that is enough time to evade the 20 meters and then come back and hit the survivor that is mending at 1 second.
The second one let's people with 30 seconds but reduces 15 seconds for each stab, so it isn't exploitable. Basically old frank's mixtape.
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I can change those 2 topics that you mentioned, these are things that were supposed to be tested, but sure, why not? It also looks good on paper.
The fatigue is the same as it was before, I was just making it so the survivor can actually run away from Legion after being hit, but now that I think of it, they can actually run with the speed boost if I simply let the power have a 2 second cooldown.
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If you do it right the first one is straight up better both in terms of being intuitive and in terms of being strong.
Just have it so DW on an exposed/injured Survivor = 20 seconds instead of 30 to start but still reduces by 10 seconds per hit.
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How about now? It looks better with that "Tremendously" xD
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Changed that with a suggestion from NuclearBurrito.
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Now that I saw the comment, what I have to say is
I don't think that it would be fun for the survivors, even tho it seems a really interesting idea. Because in the 2v1 or 1v1 scenario, it is too much for the survivor to care about. And those 12 seconds can turn into 24, and 36, etc. if you are unlucky and will really increase the gap between solos and SWF which I don't really like.
Deep wounds be terror radius based is really exploitable because. It's counterintuitive with the power, that you need to see people in the terror radius to go hit them (bigger terror radius, bigger window to mend).
Also, Legion can moonwalk in a really close distance with monitor and abuse or simply abusing perks like tinkerer, dark devotion and furtive chase.
A fixed distance would be much more controlled.
The idea is really creative btw.
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when are y'all gonna realize the devs don't care about legion. sad but true
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Constructive feedback, please.
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Fixed distance is also kind of exploitable. Like if the killer ever tried to be sneaky and use TR removing perks or got DW on a naturally sneaky killer (from BT vs like T1 Myers) then you could use DW to tell if they are close, kinda like a survivor version of Whispers.
So like which is the more severely exploitable version?
2v1 vs Legion is already kinda like that, 15s turns into 30, 45, etc. Legion can keep going back and forth, alternating between tagging the remaining survivors.
An interesting thing to point out: being afflicted with DW is not 100% negative as it hides you from Killer Instinct.
Swf would def have leagues easier time grouping up, that's for sure. But that's a problem that needs to be tackled with base game tweaks
Hard to tell what would be fun without being able to test it. Only thing we an do is keep spitballing ideas, it's up to BHVR to make tweaks and allow us to test stuff, if they feel so inclined.
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That is very unfun to play against. Survivors will basically surrender when you kill the second guy, because those situations are too hell anoying.
The fixed range can be used as a tracking tool, like a whispers. Deep wounds was supposed to down survivors but it was too good like it was before. So a tracking tool isn't bad at all is basically a whispers, this way, it's the same for survivors - if they see the timer pause, it's because legion is coming.
Yeah, I completely agree with you in the last topic. Maybe you're right, maybe i'm right - only playing will tell. As you said, they should do more frequent tweaks tho, to test out what is good or bad.
It's the right path but with spaghetti code any idea will take ages to program for some of them to be just thrown away if they are bad/unhealthy. I think that it will be better with dedicated servers... maybe?
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I want him to speed up in action speed and movement speed every time he hits a different survivor (also terror radius increase with it) until that Feral Frenzy is over.
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