Survivor sided game. Prove me wrong. I'll respond
Comments
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Starting things?
All I do is provide a logical counter-argument to the theory that “OMG SURVIVORZ SO OP DEVS H8 KILLORZ AND CONSPIRE TO N3RF THEM EVRY UPDATE!!!”
If people get mad then that’s on them for not being able to accept another persons opinion. I don’t troll nor insult, some people just aren’t able to accept that maybe just maybe, the game is more balanced than they realize and that devs do not hate any side in particular. In fact they try to appease these people a lot but I don’t know why as most often remain ungrateful. Killers are stronger than they’ve ever been yet change Ruin and its the end of the world.
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So is your argument directed towards the red ranked portion of the game?
What about anything below?
After not touching killer for a while sure is nice to completely curb stomp my way back. That's my take though, I can't neccesarily agree with this. There's so many dependent factors that if one favors a side they pretty much win over the other.
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Stats and data are not reliable at all, remember of all salty trash survivors who DC becouse X is OP and needs THE CLOSE LOOK
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The entire game is survivors sided.
The game gives extreme advantage to the survivor team over the killer side
The number of mistakes survivors can make are many and still win while killers mistakes are frighteningly low.
Hot opinion incoming. Rank doesnt really matter because it's mostly broken. Perks aren't balanced and the game is asymmetry... in 1 vs 4 the game is tremendously more difficult for the 1 for some reason even tho its supposed to be the power role people are supposed to overcome. Survivors have a gameplay advantage on every category and shouldn't
the game is survivors sided
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Point 1
You are not taking into consideration the many factors that affect gen speeds and chases, healing, doing totems and other actions also take time, not counting slowdown perks.
Point 2
This was made with balancing purposes, plus, honestly, it would feel weird having a survivor like camera with killer
Point 3 and 4
Again with this stupid argument, did you miss the whole point of an asymmetrical game? Do I really have to remind you that you are the power role and can kill survivors? Do you really expect each survivor to only have 1 perk?
Point 5
Uh... do you expect the skill checks to be Overcharge level of difficult? I don't see what point you are trying to bring up here.
Ah, yes, because the sounds when injured, healing, searching chests, doing totems, vaulting, failing skill checks don't exist and the multiple perks that let you see auras have yet to be implemented, lmao
Point 6
"Cant compete with"
If you cant compete with them it doesn't mean that nobody can compete them.
In conclusion:
Once again, playing victim, because that is the only thing many of the users of this forum have been capable of in the last weaks
Accept some ######### responsibility, if you are having poor games its not completely the fault of the devs for making a flawed game, its also yours for not taking the time to properly learn it.
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It actually depends on what do you think is a win. For me,a win is killing at least two people. As a survivor, a win is to either die but help my teammate/teammates escape or survive. For some winning is getting a 4k and all survivors escaping.
That's why for me the game isn't survivor sided, it's whoever plays the best. If I play spirit against good survivors I'll lose. But if I am a god spirit I will win. It depends for me :3
In your point of view you're right, it is survivor sided. But it's survivor sided because of swf imo not the field of view, tr, red stain ect.
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U right
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Point 1
Your correct, gens get done much much faster when you add other factors like toolboxes, perks and great skillchecks you might only spend 60 seconds on a gen giving the killer even less time for objectives.
Doing totems is pointless lmao unless you have old ruin to motivate them. But even then hexes are the weakest perks in the game none are meta accept the one you cant cleans till the end.
3 and 4
You cant claim killer is a power roll if its literally disadvantaged in every aspect
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Yes skillchecks should be more difficult in every way otherwise pointless. All those sounds are only if the survivor isnt doing obj and perks for detection ? Mute if a survivor has a perk to counter and they have 12 to do so. Aura reading killer perks all have gameplay counters from survivor that dont require perks and not one just pops for free every killer aura read takes skill or cost time
Your conclusion is play more and learn more ? I got thousands of hours buckaroo I'm in the forums and I'm watching the streams and I've read the wiki from top to bottom. Conclusion killer roll is vastly more difficult then survivor and survivor roll has countless advantages.
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I think you are just nitpicking and biased. I win bye bye
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So...survivors have a bigger base kit of actions. Better field of view, better resource gathering and retention, more perks and addons, teamwork advantages, less objectives, and vastly more time for errors and room for mistakes.
But I'm nitpicking?
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There is nothing to prove as wrong, all points are 100% true and game is survivor sided.
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Sorry man, I was just joking. The thing I wrote is a meme that comes from a popular youtuber.
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LOL good meme
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Yet there still are good killers that bring home ez 4k addonless.
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You forget some stupid but important fact... You cannot know the surv perks... But in the prematch loading says the name of the killer ( not all the time but, it's a fact) destroying the minimal surprise factor. Instantly they know how to play (you)
It's really disappointing that all you can do is make a statement here and be the point of jokes and angry from the same toxic main surv twitch.tv YouTube unknown artist who are wannabes from real streamers. You mix that with swf possibility and get the game going like a Titanic. If they don't make some serious changes... They gonna drown.
I make the stupid survey, what a lost of time they destroy the only stupid weapon that killers gotten.. I used 2 times Hex ruin.
Personally think all ruin it's a waste of perk slot.
I like your post.
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I'm not sure, but I believe you know the killer in the loading screens only the first few times you're facing him. (that, or it's only a low rank thing)
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12 hooks is a really rare situation honestly.. If you 4k, you usually snowball at some point and can one hook/two hook the last 2 survivors. And not saying of survivors that don't get unhooked fast enough to not go into struggle because of pressure/commited to finish their gens before. I think at most 4k games end with 10 hooks.
And about the difference in objectives, I'll had that every hooked survivor is a new objective added for survivors.
I don't disagree that the game is survivor oriented, but that's just not as bad as people say, people like to complain, and exagerate things. And ignore facts that don't go their way.
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These aren't so much arguments as stating the mechanics of the game. This doesn't prove anything or even argue a point.
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Firstly do not you expect to get 4K. Devs wanna balance this game like 2 escape and 2 death. So even survivors completed their objectives 6/6 like %100, you can still complete yours, still get 4K maybe 2K. Sometimes survivors loose at the end game. There are some options for you to choose. Tunnel, slug and camp. If you tunnel or slug you may complete your objective faster than you think.
Point-2
Killers run much faster than survivors. Killers can see stratch marks. This is not a reason to talk about it I think. This is just how the game goes on.
Point-3
Even survivors have 12 slots, they usually use same perks. Because they need to use them to have better chance to survive. So you are not against 12 different perks. Iron Will or Dead Hard are generally used by survivors even they are SWF. So “12 perk slots” idea is not really logical to me. And every survivor does not play in a SWF team or does not play as a teamplayer. There is still huge population that plays as random. Many perks are not used in a team work. Many of them are personal perks. Like DS, self-care, iron will, DH, SB, quick and quiet, urban etc. So also you should think each survivornas a different player who tries to survive. Do not completely think them as a perfect team. They are also individuals who may focus on survive and escape instead of being efficient teamplayer.
Point-4
As items or toolboxes, killer moris and some usefull or OP add-ons make sense in same degree in my opinion. If it bothers you, you may use franklins demise. I do not know. That should not make sense. Because this is how the game goes on. Many survivor items are not that much powerfull except keys(since insta heals are nerfed). Toolboxes may need some nerf.
Point-5
Skill checks are not really important part of the game since there was not old ruin. So they are easy or not, in reality mind games,maps, offerings, strategies, builds and team works do matter. They are the important part of the game for survivors. I mean killers also do not do anything hard. Clicking mouse-1 and nothing more. Why would survivors have harder or challenging skill checks...
As I said there is something just because of that is the way how the game goes on. Killers have red stain but they are faster and they can see stratch marks and bloods. They have bloodlust mechanic in chases. Survivors have only perks while killers have also specific powers+ perks that can help them to track and down survivors easier. I am not complaining because that is the game. Just think them as simple elementary rules. If you do not like red stains or you think that helps survivors a lot, you may try to play as stealth killer. If you find survivors hardly, you may use doctor or freddy and make them scream or you may use perks like discordance, barbeque or infectious fright. There are lots of choices for you.
Point-6
That is how the game is again. I know that may be unfair for you or other killers. But it is an asymetric game 1vs4. If there is a person more than 1, there will be communication for sure. If the communication starts, other things come after for sure. We just can not make the game 1killer vs 1 survivor. So even there are random survivors, there will be little communication with gestures or guesses to play it more efficiently against the killer. That does not mean the game is survivor sided. There are some advantages-disadvantages of playing killer and survivor. So... That is just the game and how the game is.
For others below your points, I may write much more than I think so I wanna end it here. There are hardnesses of playing as killer and being against 4 people. But also different hardnesses for survivors, too. Like getting tunneled and facecamped. Red ranks may be sweaty. There are lots of things to talk so... :D
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Actually I never considered it... unhooking survivor might not be mandatory but its absolutely an additional objective. I thought about how if ones on the hook the obj rebalance until they are back but not that....
Thank you
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this game is pathetically survivor sided (i’m a survivor main) and they refuse to fix it and they WONT. i’m almost at the point of giving up at this game lmao.
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I think it's pretty unanimous that the game is, and has been survivor sided. Anyone who has played this game for a few hundred hours probably recognizes this.
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This is one of those things that is just completely subjective. It largely depends on what your criteria are for the game being fair. I mean you could have someone else look at every point you made in your post and think every one of those things is perfectly balanced. That doesn't necessarily mean either of you are wrong. It just means you have a different set of standards as to what makes the game balanced.
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If that was true at two kills the game would go straight to the scorecard and say amazing killer victory gg everyone.
If survivors did 100% and didnt walk out. That's entirely on them.
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Tunneling camping and most recently slugging are universally despised among almost the entire survivors population. Playing this way your correct is the only way killers close the gap. But then everyone would have to admit that killers should tunnel survivors out and camp for a health state to make there obj match survivors.
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.6 on most killers it's not much.
Bloodlust helps but it's not a race it's a chase, so if they had the same speed the killer could never catch because they always start running before killer does to Avoid him.
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They do double up perks and your right, but it only takes one small game outta 12 to kill all hex perks.
2 or 3 DS or DH BT means tons of extra chases and free hits.
Not all SWF is always something I like to say "make freinds" in response because in a competitive online ranked game theres no reason other then urself to purposely give up ur team advantage.
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I'd like to remove killer moris to be honest and put them as a reward for all 3rd hook kills. And in the same stroke kill keys off because they cause the same frustration for both sides.
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Only some powers from some killers
If you notice the top 3 killers aren't the top because of power, only because of the movement speed within ther power. Speed is the issue any killers that approach a different strategy like stealth or status effects suffer in other categories in equal measure
Being asymmetry killers shouldn't have vast disadvantage they should be the power roll. The mountin teamwork overcomes
Everything else you said,
you right
and all of your suggestions for improvement are helpful. If I could upvote more then once I would. Thank you for your time
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Hello.
Okay lets talk about this @emptyCups
Idk if it makes sense to discuss any of these points you listed, since it is an asymmetrical game.
But i think it comes down to some factors:
- Are Survivors solo or in comp? 3 or 4 man squads are usually stronger then killer, but if survivors are solo, the killer has usually the upper hand. Since in most games there are solo survivors, the killer has more easy rounds then hard ones.
- Which Killer is it? The Nurse? LOL she wins almost all the time if she knows how to actually play her. Legion? Bubba? Survivor will win more often then not.
- Maps! There are some maps that are survivor sided and some are killer sided. Look at lerys or Lab.. both very killersided. Or Haddonfield, definitly favours survivors.
- Tools! Is the killer bringing a red or green mori? Then he wins. Since you get them frequently, you can basicly get your freewin very often. Survivors bringing best toolboxes and key to a game? Then the Killer will have at least a very hard time to deal with them.
It is definitly not Survivor sided in my opinion, as you can see, there are many factors that have to be considered. But it is also not 100% killersided, even tho i think the killer should have the upper hand considered that a lot speaks for him.
I know that some killers here tend to say, that these statistics dont mean anything, but they actually do. The killrate is so absurdly high, that there is no real excuse tbh.
Last but not least, i play killer myself and i can honestly say from my perspctive, that in almost all of my games, i get 2-4 kills and tons of hooks. The 5 or 6 games i played today for example were nothing but stomps with Clown, Legion, Doctor (x2) and Wraith. No mori, no camping, no tunneling. In non of these games they finished more then 3 gens. RAnk 1 of course.
Killer can be really stressfull, but difficult? Absolutly not. I dont wanna step on anyones shoes, but if you think killer is hard... you better should not play a really hard game then..
Kind regards
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I don't think it's tipped in anyone's favour. I've had matches where the killer has ruled over the survivors and easily killed all 4 of us. But I've also had games where survivors ruled over the killer. I disagree with it being survivor sided. And I disagree with it being killer sided. Yes, Survivors are more "powerful" in a sense, but they have to be. They can't fight the killer.
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There are tons of thing that they need to fix in this game. I am just saying that they wanna balance it. It is not balanced and working on %100 but t I mean since ruin was nerfed at red ranks still killers get 4K or 0K. 2K does not mean that the killer loose or win. But If you get 4K(which is hard at those ranks for killer if they are facing with good SWF team) surelly there must be different rewarding. You may have noed and blood warden so it makes a suprise for the end game. Trust me I have seen lots of matches that we loose at the end. If you make enough pressure on survivors, you may high chance to win even they completed their objectives.
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Well If the killer does it without reason and regardless then it is despised by many of them. I am survivor main but I play as killer as well. After I started to play as killer I understand killers and why they tunnel and camp in some scenarious. And I am not mad If I am tunneled and camped. Especially if the gens are popped really fast. I mean it is the way how you play. You need to do the right thing to make pressure without listening everyone. I think in this forum lots of people are killr mains so they will say the same thing about tunneling,camping or sugging. It is allowed in this game and not a ban reason because it is situational tactic. You have an option. So devs do not forbid it but they made perks for survivors to make it harder for killers. I am not telling you to facecamp. But depending on the popping gens, you may try to tunnel. At least, you can hit the unhooked person and let him down(if he has DS), and go after the unhooker. He will stay on the ground and someone will mess with him instead of doing gens. And at that time you will be chasing another survivor. Also you may make far camp and get free hit from the unhooker. I do not know :D It is how I play and how I put pressure on survivors. And in my opinion it works.
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For sure killers have to be faster. I am not complaining about it. I just said that there are some game mechanics and basic rules. There are + and - for survivors and killers. And I am not thinking about why. I think they are all okey since I played both sides. I mean if a survivor is injured also he will be bleeding and groaning(if he does not have Iron Will). You can listen voices, sounds and track bloods or stratch marks. But as a survivor, they also need to know where the killer comes from to do something otherwise It makes the game unfair for them. Imagine you are against something that almost knows where you are and you can not understand where it comes from. It would be frustrating. And not only bloodlust, also there is entity block on the windows. You can hide your red stain by moonwalking. These are basic game rules and mechanics that I am used to it. I think they are OK.
3- I know about DS and BT which usually make killers frustrated. But that is how devs make it. They do not completely prevent gen rushing, camping, slugging(they also support it with Infectious Fright and Oni), tunneling. They just make perks to prevent them a little bit for both sides. But as I said, If you put on enough pressure at the beginning that will be better. Instead of hitting the unhooked survivor you may hit the unhooker. You may wait a little bit before hitting the unhooked survivor(untill BT timer will end) then just down him and let him stay on the ground instead of picking(Because of DS). Still good killers do not suffer from DS or BT since they know that to do about it.
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You are right. Both of them are changing the the whole game if they are used in the correct way. But in my opinion still moris are better than keys. Because you need to complete 5 gens if there are 4 survivors alive(exit gates are powered in this situation why would use the key and escape from the hatch xD), 4 gens if there are 3 survivors, 3 gens if there are 2 survivors. Also you have to find the hatch. For mori it is enough for killer to hook a surivor for once and then tunnel and you get rid of 1 of them. Well, I do not have problem with moris and keys anymore(I used to be really frustrated and find them unfair :P). I actually find them funny for both sides. They make the game interesting. Especially hatch escapes with key.
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I do not know the top 3 killers but probably Oni, Billy and Freddy. But at red ranks huntress is pretty strong even she is slower than other killers. I think fast killers are chosen not because of winning the chases. Because of the gen pressure. Oni, Billy and Freddy are really good to check the gens and put on pressure. I think playing and winning as a killer is usually about putting pressure on survivors. Then other thing just come after it. But still good killers can put pressure on survivors with different killers. Specific builds, add-ons make the game interesting.
Well as it is said, asymmetric. If the game was like CS:GO(5vs5) there would not be any problem. The problem is that is really hard to balance the game for both sides because of its nature. There will be disadvantage for killers and survivors in different topics. For example, 3 people are gen rushed and 1 survivor is caught and camped and died. It is not fair for that survivor. For killer 4 people are doing things together and well-organized. It is unfair for killer but It happens. I think that is because of the game. There will be different advantages and disadvantages for both sides. The game will never be balanced. But at least if people understand each other(both killers and survivors), at least the toxicity and complaints about the balance of the game in this forum will decrease. But for this, people need to get rid of "Killers" and "Survivors" mentality I mean "we" and "they" mentality...
I am glad If I can help or make a different perspective for you. You may check good youtubers,streamers who play as killer main. So you may see different builds and game plays and how the good killers come through some of problems
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The only reason why I consider the game survivor sided is simply because gens go by too fast compared to the number of hooks and chases killers have to go through. Imo hooking is fine, but chasing is a bigger problem simply because looping is too strong and survivor meta gives them too many second chances and invulnerability.
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Exactly, infinites loops and second chance perks are problematic for certain killers that are easily loopable. I dont know how balanced are expectations from killers and survivors. Survivor can repair gens insanely fast while killers has to chase and hook every survivor 3x. Survivors can in ideal case finish game in 5 mins, killer cannot chase and hook 12x in 5 mins - its impossible. Then killers prefer camp and tunnel to eliminate at least 1 survivor fast and this leads to verbal abusing and crying of survivors. Just repair speed of gens and game will be fine.
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I play both sides but main killer. When I play survivor in most post game chat I've been defending killers
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Yeah, most of mine at R1 level play involve around 11-9 hooks in a 4k, just because I don't always hook everyone 3 times.
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You do realize that's because of all the toxic a-holes that DC just because they don't like the level, they don't like the killer, the killer brought a mori, they get found quickly or downed quickly, etc, etc... The stats are about as useful as using sand paper as TP...
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Survivor sided balance wise? Not even close. Survivor sided experience wise? Yea they need 4 survivors for every killer 4head.
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Actually the game is not survivor sided but it's bad designed.
I understand your frustration but let me point some "exploits" (if we can call it like it) that survivors take advantage of and the killer's struggle with, taking advantage of such exploits doesn't mean the game favours survivors, because it's not intended to work in that way.
Bad Map design is the best of the examples
Maps are designed for specific killers, those are the ones being released. Let's suppose Sanctum of Wraith, the map was released with Oni as a killer. The map is insanely big so you need a good amount of speed in order to travel fast. Oni has the Demon Dash that allows him to travel fast. We can say that Spirit and Hillbily are good with that map as well because they can travel fast as well, but the map was originally tested with Oni and made for Oni.
Bad Map Tiles
Some tiles are awful. On Wretched Shop, the shop has 4 exits. Two windows and two doors. You have a pallet (not really safe) closer to the smaller door, and one closer to the right window (very safe), so if someone knows what he is doing, you will loss tons of time trying to catch that survivor. And don't let me start talking about infinites
The double window is another barrier that killers struggle with as unless you use a specific perk and pray that it helps, you won't be able to catch up.
Bad Tile Spawn
Some tiles has a safe pallet and spawns next to another tile with another safe pallet. Wich creates a "double barrier" that helps survivors.
Now, some things that make killers suffer as well
Bad bandaid perks
Perks like "Bamboozle" are bandaid for those bad designs. In theory, Bamboozle idea was to help you. Now. Why it doesn't really help? Because as I said, some tiles spawn next to another safe tiles, so if a survivor finds a window blocked, and as the killer has a slower vault speed than survivors, those survivors can move into another safe loop until the block is removed.
How can we make Bamboozle helpful? Well, making that the vault speed faster, like 25% and that the last window you vault remains blocked.
Imagine it, even combined with Fire up tier III and 5 tokens it will make the vaulting speed slighty faster than a fast fault, and we need to think about this, Until the end game it won't have that power.
SWF
Now, this is a touchy subject to talk about, while no one can penalize for playing with friends, it's true that playing with friends has a lot of advantage over random survivors. And... the game is not designed about SWF either.
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Hm idk, I’m up in the air on this one as. 40/60 killer player bc I 3k-4K more than i escape, both at red ranks- it seems to me It’s killer sided, but the whole game isn’t based on my win streak lol so I’m gonna say it’s based on skill and tbh there are killers who have 80% kill rates like Freddy and Hag (75% or so) and that high of a percent would be hard to screw up IMO. There are easier and harder killers to play, and it takes skill to play certain killers like Billy, Hag, Oni, Nurse, Huntress, there is no skill choice for survivor because they are reskins. If you pick one of the killers who actually requires strategy or coordination, then it’s survivor sided. If you pick any of the killers who only require a basic knowledge of the game, then you’re into balanced/killer sided territory.
honestly I wish survivors had special skills or stats... then there would be more accurate ways to tell? Maybe lol
all I know is when I was rank 15 killer I bodied A rank 2-4 SWF w Nurse (going for her adept) and it was a battle to the end but it wasn’t imbalanced.
again this is my experience and not applying to everyone lol so take it w a grain or 10 of salt 🧂
also here are some funny pics of spirit
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Can you show these stats please lol?
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Yes why are survivors skins? Makes no sense :(
So you say some killers make the game balanced while others aren't strong enough. Sounds accurate to me.
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Survivors have to do 5 Gens, but the Killer only has to kill 4 Survivors.
Its killer-sided, clear case.
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Nurse had a less than 50% kill rate post rework.
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Well yea, people were still learning how to use her
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Now, and follow me on this one, if nurse was easily the best and still is but had a bad kill rate, does that mean she wasn't the best? No, it means people playing here were awful and the people that were even decent with her could dominate.
Replace Nurse with survivors and you have the exact same situation.
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The stats aren't right, they are basing their argument on fallible and incorrect stats, that don't take into account of skill.
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Hmm I'm pretty sure people know how to play survivor though...
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For every person that knows how to play survivor well, theres 8 that have no idea how to do anything besides soft loop and hold m1.
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Pretty much!
there needs to be a buff for the “worst” Killers and some form of ability for high learning curve killers to be able to control gens (if you notice all of them besides Freddy and Billy have poor gen pressure)
bc the results of stats for the high rate killers I think are based mostly on people who stuck around long enough to learn and master them
Take Hag for example: second highest kill rate, very low pick rate, high learning curve so the people consistently playing her are pushing through that learning curve.
in contrast: Freddy : low/no
learning curve, high pick rate, highest kill rate
who is the average or casual player person going to main between the two?
(it’s Freddy lol)
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Pigs traps are not RNG. Only placing a key is. Once you have a trap on, RNG does nothing. Its survivor choice. Literally in their hands if they pick right or not.
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Looks like you're arguing for the sake of arguing, as your point is based purely on semantics and wording, but I'll oblige anyways.
You're not correct. RNG links each trap to a jigsaw box at the start of the match. Neither the pig nor the survivor knows what box each trap is linked to. It would be in the survivor's hands to pick the right box (or in the killer's hands to pick the right time to trap a survivor based on their location) if they had a hint or a clue as to which box contains their key. They don't. Survivors can choose their pathing in order to be able to go through all 4 (or 5) boxes in the quickest amount of time, but that has no impact on whether they'll "choose" the correct one on their first, second, third, fourth or fifth attempt.
Going back to my point in this scenario RNG can work both in the killer's or the survivor's favour.
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Exactly, this game is not perfect or perfectly balanced but many things I love is in this game so... Devs should not stop trying to balance it but it will never be balanced perfectly. Because this game is improving and in every 2 months there are coming new killers,perks and survivors. So it is not a constant game. If it is not constant, there will always be new or unbalanced things which needs to be balanced. I love this game anyways, I am just hoping devs to fix bugs and balance things instead of bringing new killers, perks and map. Because new things are always risky. People will not have an exact idea unless they try them in long term(Not in PTB).
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