Any plans to remove the locker + DS tech?
Comments
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What if you in the 1 minute mark hook someone else? It's still tunnelling the fact that i went for the guy that was unhooked 30 seconds ago while in mean time i hooked somebody else?
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First off, I want to thank you for actually taking the time and patience to write up some civil counter-points. This forum needs more people like you.
Now onto addressing your actual arguments.
1) It's core design is to counter tunnelling, that we can't deny. It's supposed to punish a Killer if they pursue a player who was recently unhooked.Here is the main reason why I loathe DS on a conceptual level.
As a killer, if someone is farmed right in front of me and I want to win, I am going to down the farmed person. Not only are they already injured, but they're now 1 hook closer to death. For my objective to be completed in the most efficient way possible I have to target them.
DS punishes me for doing my job efficiently.
I think we can all agree that getting camped, farmed, and tunnelled sucks and is generally boring to have happen. But adding in a free-escape perk doesn't fix the main issue as to why these actions happen in the first place.
2) It unintentionally counters camping. It's not designed to counter camping, but it will help a Survivor to escape from a camped situation.Agreed. I only brought this up because I saw other people use this as an argument.
3) You're looking at this from the wrong angle. You ask "Why should the Killer be punished for Survivor mistakes?", but ignore "Why should the unhooked Survivor be punished for another Survivor's mistake?".But that's the thing, survivors shouldn't be seen as singular, they should be seen as a collective.
A farmer unhooking in the killer's face is harming themselves just as much as the team mate they're dooming. Losing a fellow survivors means there's 1 less person to distract or do gens, drastically reducing everyone else's chance for survival.
If a survivor is un-safely unhooked, every other survivor is punished because it is their job to work together as a team. If one of them suffers, they all suffer.
I've already stated how I want communication added in so solo players can better coordinate and allow the game to be better balanced around a team of survivors rather than 4 randoms.
4) The person who posted that statement is an idiot.Yep.
5) There is a drawback of having to be hooked to activate it (don't know why this is glossed over). A Killer equivalent perk would be MYC.Balance changes are needed, and once applied the Locker + DS combo won't be an issue.But the "drawback" only activates when the survivor makes a mistake that leads them to getting hooked.
MYC activates only after the killer has played efficiently. DS activates when the survivor has played poorly.
6) It punishes the Survivor for doing anything else other than being chased.Like I said, this would help fix DS being used in the early game. But after the gates are open it goes right back to punishing the killer for playing efficiently. Because once they are open, what else are you going to do but be chased?
7) The statement misses some detail. If you can catch the Survivor easily, eat the stun. If not, chase someone else. Eating the stun is a valid option, but only against some Survivors.At no point during a game should a player be punished for performing well.
If the killer manages to find, hit and down a survivor 30 seconds after they were unhooked, why should they then be forced to either give them a free escape or slug them for the remaining 30 seconds?
I'll admit that slugging them still allows for pressure to be applied on gens and other survivors, but not only is it boring for the survivor, it still isn't as effective as putting them back on hook, since that is the fastest way to both kill survivors and apply pressure.
There's also the chance that they are running Unbreakable, which completely stunts the killer's game momentum even though they played well.
8) DS needs some balance changes, most of the community agrees on that.At this point I honestly don't know how much of the community even cares at this point. I've seen my fair share of players that seem to be using a version of dbd from an alternate reality, and have little to no understanding of how the game is played.
Regardless, I hope those that do care are sane enough to agree with this.
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Just to the point with the survivors being seen as collective. I don't understand how this has becoming so popular, but unhooks are done so inefficiently. It is so more common to go for unsecure insta unhooks than to make use of the minute you have before next hook state starts. You can do half a gen and still get there in time. I even see people hop of a gen the second someone gets downed, even if I run Prove Thyself and we could finish the gen in 20 seconds.
And I think, this behavior somehow has pushed a lot of killers to be at least proxy camping, because they literally know there is someone else near the hook, because it is just the case in 90% I really think camping would not be such a big problem if survivors were not so greedy for saves.
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Usually when surviver jumps in locker i wait untill crows comes up to the locker since you cant use head on when birds are above you LOL
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First off referring to the game as a "Job" you don't have a job in the game, you're playing a game, please try and remember that.
You don't go for the unhooked survivor because it is efficient, you go for the unhooked survivor because it is easier, please use accurate wording instead of trying to dress up your poor plays as a tactic. When you make the choice to go for the unhooked then you have made the assessment that they may have BT and on top of that they may have DS but STILL you go for what you have perceived as the easy option and then when you get stopped by a perk you come here to cry about it being unfair
"Adding in a free escape doesn't address the issue". This escape is literally there because playing games against killers like you is boring as #########. They have put in Borrowed Time and DS to assist with the desperate camping/tunnelling that a large number of killer players use. Even more laughable is players do this when there are still 5 gens to go.
I can see a predictable "standard survivor main" comment coming so I'll point out I play both sides in red ranks. I have never camped and never tunnelled. It is a game and when you do either of those things you're removing the fun from a game from the person you have done it to, which in turn will push people away from the game for good.
The idea of it being a "Free escape" in EGC is also dumb. If by free you mean the survivors have already done all of their work in the trial and you haven't managed to stop them then yes that is "free" but let's be honest all this is aimed at is the fact you think you should be allowed to cling on to this desperate camped kill in EGC because you have lost and it will make you feel better. The alternative is, remind yourself that you're playing a game and move on to the next round.
The community on this game is grotesque. The us vs them mentality and the desperate crying on the forums about ANYTHING the side you don't play has is so depressingly sad. IT'S A GAME!!!!
The only people who are even remotely normal are the ones who play both sides and just see it as a casual game to have fun on. They should bring in a quota of you must play at least 33% of both sides at least that way the killer mains would stop crying about every single perk and item survivors have and survivor mains can stop moaning about NOED.
Final comment just to really try and hammer the point home- IT. IS. A. GAME
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You are right, it is a game and games should be fun. If certain mechanics in a game gets abused then it ceases to be fun.
I don't have an issue with DS or bt if they are used as they should be. But if they get used in an abusive manner then it becomes unfun.
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Do try it! It's quite fun. Just get off the hook. Go find the killer. And do a gen RIGHT IN THEIR FACE. Then when they come to you. Hop in a locker. You either get to progress a gen while the "F off" or they eat your DS. Much fun. And fair too. To punish the killer by allowing you to do whatever you want for 90 seconds. As long as there is a locker nearby!
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Abusive??? Give yourself a shake and wake up.
abusive
/əˈbjuːsɪv/
adjective
1.
extremely offensive and insulting.
"the goalkeeper was sent off for using abusive language"
2.
engaging in or characterized by habitual violence and cruelty.
If you ever feel that either of those 2 definitions of "abusive" apply to the use of a perk in a game. Switch the game off, go outside and get some air.
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I absolutely agree.
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Lol you are taking things too literal.
Replace abusive with " as not intended"
So if those perks are used in a manner that was not intended in it's original design, the game ceases to be fun.
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This right here. .eat it early.
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It does force the killer to ignore the objective to not get stabbed for not tunneling whatsoever
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I am being literal to point 9ut how overly dramatic your wording and feelings about a perk are. Where is the description of what is allowed with all perks and what isn't?
There isn't one, because a perk can be used however the person who used the slot for it wants. I don't tell a killer what perks he can or can't use, nor do I say how he uses them. Yet as a killer you want to be able to tell a survivor how and when they can use their perks. The only behaviours in this game that I think are scummy and pathetic are camping and tunnelling. Other than that use whatever perks you want. Don't care.
If you want to down someone who has just been unhooked, that's fine too. It becomes scummy when you pick them up and put them back on the hook even though it makee more sense to leave them and chase someone else because then someone has to come and heal them off the floor but most killers can't see this for some reason.
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I'm not being overly dramatic, I'm simply making a point.
So are you saying that there isn't a single perk, add-on or offering that you might have a problem with?
And it's interesting that scummy killer tactics are not ok but scummy survivor tactics are fine.
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A scummy survivor tactic? Because they are using a single use perk? What a monster that survivor is! I wonder if killers would enjoy having single use perks. BBQ only works on first hook. Ruin only works on the first gen it is applied to. I guarantee that would cause a great deal of moaning from people who only play killer but STILL they moan that a survivor has a single use perk.
A killer finds a lobby instantly, there is no queue. A killer gets to spend the entire time in a game,nothing removes them from it. A survivor on the other hand has to queue for 10mins and then potentially get a killer who camps and tunnels them out of the game in next to no time. Yet, you think that behaviour is fine and isnt scummy in the slightest. Nothing a survivor can do takes the killer out of the game and forces them back in to a queue for 10mins.
The only add on that I think is completely stupid is the iridescent head add on for the huntress. It is always paired with the belt add on for 3 instadown attempts and it works the same every time. Get up close to a survivor and down them in one. Zero skill to it. If there was a range limit on the insta down I wouldn't care about that add on either.
As for perks not a single perk bothers me, no offerings bother me and the aforementioned 1 add on I think is BS but at the same time. I see the game as a game and not some competitive life or death situation so I shrug it off.
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Killers don't have any one time perks so in that regard you are right. I could probably think of one though...how bout "the first gen that gets completed gets regressed by 100% instead" It would be stupidly powerful but it's a one time use so it's ok right?
I never said killers that camp and tunnel wasnt scummy...in fact I described it as a scummy tactic.
So you are essentially saying that because survivors need to queue for 10 minutes, that makes it ok for them to use scummy tactics?...otherwise why bring it up?
And finally even you have something in this game you'd like to change and I'm not here to just say "deal with it, it's in the game", I'd listen to you without assuming the worst. Changes happen all the time in this game and they are for the better.
Nurse got changed due to how powerful she was, insta-heals got nerfed for the same reason, ruin Nerf, the upcoming toolbox nerfs and the list goes on. Regardless of it being a killer or survivor mechanic.
And now DS is in the discussion and a constructive reply would be more appreciative, I don't want to completely change it. I simply want stop it being used in a scummy manner.
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Except being hit with DS is 5 seconds, not an entire generator being undone. So your idea is completely different to the actuality of what DS currently is.
I didn't say that a survivor couldn't do scummy tactics because they have been in a queue. I said they can't really do anything "scummy" because nothing removes the killer from the game within a minute or so. The killer gets a full game no matter what. A survivor if they ate unlucky can be grabbed off a gen and put on a hook within 30 seconds and either never gmcomenoff that hook or when they do the killer that has stood next to them the whole time tunnels the ######### out of them in a desperate attempt to ruin their game.
You have given no evidence of what a scummy survivor play is but it seems to be using their perks in a way that you and other killer mains don't want them used? Yet those survivors aren't allowed to tell you how to use yours.
Instaheals being nerfed was an over the top action brought on by killer mains crying. Toolbox nerf another over the top action brought on by killer mains crying. As for the nurse, I never really use her on PC but on console I still use her in red ranks and don't have much of an issue so the changes didn't really bother me.
The iridescent head is irritating yes but like I said, I just shrug it off and get on with the game. I don't post endlessly on here crying at my PC about how an iridescent head has destroyed the game for me and how I will quit unless they are changed. That's the kind of reaction a killer main has to every single thing.
RUIN GOT CHANGED, I QUIT!!!! etc etc.
The fact is people who play one half of the game are in no position to ######### and moan about what the other side has as they never see it from the other side. They just want the game to be easier for them because they want to win. "I shouldn't have to make a decision at a locker when I'm tunnelling someone, I should just be able to put that person back on the hook because I want to win"
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Sorry I misunderstood, it's ok for a survivor to play scummy because they might not get a full game but a killer will. Ok gotcha...
You never asked for an example of scummy survivor play but I'm happy to provide you with one. In this scenario you've already hooked a survivor, you go off to find another one. You run into one and he's running towards the hook, you smack him and he speeds away and gets the unhook. You have two choices, go for the rescuer or rescuee, in this scenario your not playing scummy so you go for the rescuer. The survivor that got unhooked has started to bodyblock you as you try your best to ignore him but the rescuer is getting away, finaly you smack the rescuee and he has bt. You've lost the other survivor so you go after the rescuee but he jumps in the locker...no you have to deal with DS even though you had no intention to deal with it...does any of that sounds scummy to you?
I play both sides and although I do favor killer, I've experienced survivor enough to know how it feels to be camped and tunnelled etc
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Guess its killers turn to say "just loop 4 head" (get it because survivors after ruin nerf said to apply pressure yet are so quick to defend a perk they abuse). And i play both sides and survivor mains crying is why we got ruin nerf freddy nerf legion dead and nurse dead. And now i keep seeing billy which survivors really have no reason to complain about.
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DS sells toxic nea, meg, feng, and yui skins. They’re not gonna nerf money.
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Hey, just last night got one of my best DS experiences in my whole DBD career.
Played Pig, Claudette that I hooked not so long ago was unhooked and ran to the box that happened to be right next to me. When I've approached her to scare her off she didn't budge. Why? Well, that's obvious, I just down her and keep going to the place where I was going to in the first place. Just some time later the same Claudette rans at me and denies me a down on another survivor. Alright, I can take a trade, what gives. But wait, here's your 5 seconds of shame for tunneling. What happened? Apparently that Claudette got downed, got recovered and had enough time to reach me before DS ran out. Tunneling in it's finest. But that's not only thing why that game was memorable. In the same game I had two Ashes with identical skin. Nobody of them healed when there only 2 gens left. Wanna guess why? There is a certain perk that makes it safe to do. But I'm drifting off. After hooking another person (4th one), I've come to the place where Ash was unhooked (surveillance also showed me that somebody touched a gen nearby), I've seen an injured Ash running from that place, so I guess that's an unhooked guy and walked to the gen, made a grab (accidentally, but whatever). Well, in this days of dedicated servers there is only one type of grabs exists: when survivor lets you grab them to activate DS. It was second Ash, that has exactly the same skin and also injured. Seems balanced. Games like this not happen often, but when they happen, they really make me apprentice DS strength.
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Being 100% honest. No, I don't see anything scummy about what has happened in that scenario. You're moaning about a team working together.
The person body blocked to protect the person you hit before they unhooked them so it is protecting that first person(Rescuer) and their team from having a survivor down. Back to the scenario - you didn't have to hit them but you did because they blocked you, which is fine and it triggered BT. I'm not sure how you could lose the rescuer when being distracted for a second when hitting the person with BT though, but if you struggle to see someone then that's your issue.
You chased them to a locker and they have jumped in and you have to deal with DS. Do you have to deal with it? They're already in deep wound and they aren't running if they are in that locker, so wait for them to drop and leave them on the floor. Easy.
I assume you also class healthy survivors lining up behind an injured survivor on the way to the exit gate as scummy too?
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I wouldn't say that's an issue at all, because window teching becomes useless if you just moonwalk when you vault a window. It's an easy free hit and it shouldn't ever catch you out
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@MPUK don't really wanna join your fancy conversation, but you somehow throw in points randomly and biased, I just have to comment to show how tunnel visioned that seems to me.
"abuse" is not only @ermsy wording, that is quite commonly used in this forum regarding bugs and perks used for an advantage that should not be in place.
"A scummy survivor tactic? Because they are using a single use perk?" So a single use Mori is fine? And single use is not justifying anything, if it is simply too strong. Initial BNPs were single use and finished a gen instantly. Game breaker. Period. DS is not that strong, but it definitely can flip the coin.
The argument with queue times: you really want to justify bad perk design with queue times? Keeping survivors in the trial as long as possible because they have to wait longer? Like, all survivors should best escape, the killer can jump from one ######### match to the next without queue time. Really, that are two different topics.
You make pretty many assumptions on what other people say and are allowed to or not. Just saying. Many post from you are pretty generalizing. Btw there are not only "mains" bitching on the opposing side. There are also survivor mains saying "Instaheals needed to go" and 50/50 players complaining on both sides. Just as example.
Instaheals were not nerfed because killer mains were crying, they reverted a complete chase, which means, if you commit to the chase, there will be another around 30 seconds gone at least which means there is another gen probably done. If you quit the chase, you just wasted the time that you put into the chase. Same outcome.
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You don't see anything scummy at all? Yes the person bodyblocked to protect the rescuer using an anti-camp perk...did I camp? No. The same survivor forced my attention towards them and went into the locker just so I can eat a DS...did i tunnel? No.
Granted in this scenario you are right, you can wait for the survivor due to deep wound as long as they don't have inner strength and/or headon but if they did have those perks as well then your in a lose/lose scenario.
Either way it's hypocritical to think these kinds of strategies are ok but camping and tunnelling isn't. Then again you also think it's ok for survivors to play scummy anyway.
Lining up behind a survivor isn't scummy.
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People are terrified of DS for some reason, if you can get rid of it early, do it and stop being scared of a stun
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I dont personally come across ds that often moreso i get hit by bt all the time. (I main impossible skillcheck doctor) goodluck hitting a ds that is 60% smaller (then again people hit unnerving presence overcharge somehow so i still do get hit even with UP).
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You are calling working together as a team to make sure more people are on their feet is "scummy" because it isn't helping you get people down. Standing still next to a hook is boring and game ruining. Tunnelling is very much the same, sacrificing the killer's game in order to remove fun for someone else. Again, scummy.
It isn't an anti-camp perk. Yes that is the majority of its use but at no point does it state this perk will only trigger if you are camping and survivors can only use it if you are camping. It is terror radius related and your terror radius was by the survivor being unhooked.
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What perks and add-ons do you use for that build? I've never tried it.
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Distressing to make tr bigger overcharge for obvious reasons lullaby so if they fail overcharge lullaby stacks for like a 15 percent regression. (And you can do this multiple times) and unnerving presence to make all skillchecks 60% smaller (including overcharge and ds) and for addons new iridescent king would be amazing or the addon that makes random reverse skillchecks. So a reverse smaller with more regression overcharge skillcheck. (AND PEOPLE STILL HIT THESE)
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It isn't the fact that the team is working together that is the problem. It's the use of a 60 second invincibility to achieve it. What is the killer suppose to do in that situation?
I don't know why you can't comprehend the difference.
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Nah, you've tagged in now. I'm done lol
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How is it abusive at all if the killer can simple come back to the hook and a locker is nearby? It is a legit strat.
It’s not like the locker renders the survivor unable to be pulled out. Same concept as when the killer leaves survivors on the ground over and over and over... they still die right? Even tho we can consider that to be abusive.
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I don't disagree with you. Personally, I couldn't care less if the killer goes back to the hook and the survivor hops in a locker. They're using their "don't tunnel" perk to stop the killer from tunneling.
The time where it starts to get abusive is when they use that to work on a nearby generator, they hop in a locker whenever you get close.
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Yeah it really on gets op at end game. Get rid of it early and no worries
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Heyo, just popping in to say that unnerving presence does not affect DS anymore
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Offtopic, but....
@ermsy Try as addon also the one that increases the TR while Static Blast is ready (the reverse skillchecks are not really difficult in my opinion). And bring indoor maps offerings because they are small. With double TR addons, in the middle of Hawkins, there is no place outside the TR. Just get to the middle of indoor maps and blast, there you got your targets. After that you don't use your Blast that often to keep up the TR all over the map. Later you can use it again when you think gens are save and you don't know where survivors are, especially late game when you manage to not have 3 ultra spread gens, the lowered TR + Distressing still is big enough to cover all the closer gens. Just don't forget kicking gens to apply Overcharge.
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did not know that but it is ds so of course (enduring was nerfed and ds was buffed because of enduring effecting it) surprise surprise both of ds's counters don't effect it anymore.
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I was watching an Umbra stream, and she mentioned that she spoked with some other people, and the idea they came up with for DS is simple;
DS activates when you come off hook. If another survivor is hooked. It deactivates. Unless you are in dying state when the other survivor is hooked - to avoid the case where you get unhooked unsafely, and are immediatly downed by the killer, then left there to slug.
Doesn't really resolve the issue with abusing lockers/generators/windows/pallets/hook saves to force the DS skilcheck, but it does make it more involved with actual tunneling. Though having it deactivate while performing an action would help that a lot.
Heck they could just pull a Hex: Ruin nerf on the perk, and that would make everyone use Borrowed Time more, and at the same time give Borrowed Time a buff that it works when the killer is within x meters of the hook - instead of terror radius.
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This kinda comes from the wishy-washy stance the devs have taken in defining this as a *team" game. They want to encourage solo play but optimized it for SWF. But they still want to try and balance around solo. Only more recently trying to fix some SWF issues
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If tunneling is a valid strategy so is jumping into the locker with DS is a valid strategy
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What the hell are you talking about?? Dead by Daylight is designed in the way that survivors will make mistakes and get downed. That's the whole concept of this game. Or are you telling me that survivors should be able to 5 gen run rank 1 killers if they don't make mistakes? That's nonsense.
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By the time that survivor is found again there is no longer 60 seconds. You’ve said it yourself before.
I understand that to some the use of DS to its full potential might seem abusive but where do you draw the line? The killer could for all we know “pretended” to walk away, only to turn around and keep tunneling that survivor... after they got on a gen.
The perk never stopped the tunneler from tunneling, it merely bought that survivor some time. I just don’t understand why people see it as abusive when there are built in mechanics on the killer side like Camping and Slugging, that are “abused” And no one is complaining about that, even tho survivors have made it very clear that it is annoying and sometimes unfair.
I just think at this point DS is being nit-picked. It is probably in the best place it has been.
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Nobody has said that it isn't, that's just an example. Nothing is confirmed yet.
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I agree.
A lot of the ideas are more concerned with favoring The Killer on a Perk intended to remedy a Survivor problem. I've always said DS doesn't do enough to address tunneling, for starters it only works once. The Killer can easily counter the counter without a Perk or much effort, just slug. And then the one Survivor counter to that is a one-time use Unbreakable lol And that's another firestorm discussion for people here about how unfair that Perk is. Imo The Killer should be able to face camp, tunnel, slug but Survivors should have a way to deal with these scenarios.
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I appreciate you guys looking into this.
I think you can really see the problem when it is arguably better for the Killer to eat DS early then not tunnel.
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I Honestly think that the main issue with DS is the Timer, a full minute of immunity is just too much. I think reducing it to 40 seconds would be the best option over a complete rework. at least then it's still useful against tunneling but not so much that you feel invincible while also being long enough that slugging isn't exactly ideal either.
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It is too early to discuss this right now. But ds is not strong they really exaggerate. I stopped taking DS because I eat all kinds of heavy camps and tunnels. DS always wait for the time to expire, then when the time is over, they pick it up off the ground and hang it. It doesn't matter if you abuse DS. Every killer has the power to abuse his advantages and is free to use any deficit. In the past, murderers knew how to deal with this, because skill control ds would arrive within 3 seconds of being picked up from the ground.
However, the nerf came up and they applied this method again, and the solution for this was the skillcheck while we were picked up directly from the ground and this was great. However, murderers will abuse all kinds of mechanisms to gain all kinds of advantages. Decisive strike is not strong enough to punish the tunnel. But as I said, it's really early to discuss this. If you ask why:
3.6.0 version will come, however map dimensions will be resized, pallet amount will change, safe places will be reduced and there will be frangible walls. What solutions will we resort to if it really causes a big problem for the survivors? Especially when we use Deliverance + DS, the killers get angry with us and do not leave us until we die. Now that means we're using this feature badly? The killer wants us to die of any kind.
Now you are thinking nerf because of the Salvation advantage? If this nerf comes in, it would be really bad, because if the killers find out that we're off the hook on our own, the killer will do their best to end my life immediately. The old DS should be brought back, but as I said to everyone, it has to go through a little test and this will answer version 3.6.0.
What everyone says is not my concern. Murderers are free to exercise their legal rights, but this is true for survivors. I don't care what everyone says, killers are free to play as they want, but this is true for survivors. They are free to use their advantages for good faith or malicious purposes. Nobody can interfere with freedom of play! However, as I said, it is too early to discuss it. Don't forget what I'm saying @Peanits. Even in the old DS, 4K was still easy to do. You just enlarge it in your eyes. DS is not strong.
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There's a simple solution to this problem. every killer now becomes a trapper main. Someone hops in a locker? trap it. See? problem solved
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