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Devs, why are you always jumping the shark?
Dont you think that those changes are a bit of an overkill?
I agree that godloops should be nerfed, but from the pictures i see, this is more then just a fair nerf, they are basicly more or less useless especially the Ironworks one. At least make the pallet a bit more safe.
Changing the size of some maps is okay, like Red Forrest or Rotten Fields, those are too big, but why would you think it is neccessary for a map like Wreckers yard? This map is already really small. Instead of that, how about fixing the size of Mothers Dwelling, the biggest map in the game? You did not even mention this map, while it is the one which actually needs it the most.
When you fix the size and make a map smaller AND you fix the god loops, why would you go any further? Why would you nerf tiles aswell? Why would you also nerf genspeed aswell? How about you just take a break, nerf the god loops, change the 2-3 biggest maps and see how this actually goes?
Why it always has to be mallet method?
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Just split and keep pressure on the killer. It's better anyway than just stacking at one gen.
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In the screenshots They legit moved the window like 2 ft from where they were before, the god loops will still exist, none of these minor chances help the killer in any capacity they’re way too small to. Severe underkill.
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I dont think you understood the Screenshots correctly. While the Nerfs to those Windows were 100% justified, they will nowhere near be as strong as they currently are.
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Yes thats true, but nerfing gens is just one of about 10 different nerfs they are planning. 1-2 nerfs like i mentioned are neccessary, but not all of them.
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Peanits mentioned Mothers Dwelling in another post. He said it's kill rate wasn't higher then the normal and was on par with the other maps.
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I don’t think you understand what jumping the shark means. The phrase is supposed to be in reference for an entertainment medium hitting its peak and trying to stay relevant far longer than it should. It originated from the show Happy Days reaching its peak after having one of its characters jump a shark as a daredevil stunt and the realization that the writers had run out of ideas. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jumping_the_shark
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I am aware of that, and see, so are you, since you try to correct me, knowing what i actually mean. So the phrase works :)
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Hm? 🤨 There is a gigantic whole next to the window. While in the past you could loop this for 30 seconds + it is not loopable at all anymore.
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Try... doing gens by yourself? Gen speed will only be affected if you work with others. It’s better to spread work across multiple gens than jumping on the same gen to gen rush. I’m a rank 3 killer, rank 1 survivor, and doing gens with other people is annoying for killers since it makes the game go too quickly. You’re lying to yourself if you think it doesn’t. I know it does, cause when I play as survivor it is way TOO EASY to rush gens. The nerf is VERY much welcomed. They buffed Prove Thyself, so it will balance out.
Maps/loops needed to be reworked.
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I don't see how those windows will be useless. The walls besides the windows are still big enough to gain distance to the killer.
I am also going to guess they are changing the layout of Wrecker's Yard more so than the size. I'm hopeful that the basement might not be in the exact middle anymore.
Also, many maps have a lot of safe loops, and some of them can chain into each other, so them changing some tiles on those maps is a good thing. They are mainly just making sure killers have more consistent counterplay no matter which map they are on, which they need.
The nerfs to gens are very small, but will be noticeable. But again, I think they will be healthy for the game to balance out the gameplay for killers as well, and give them just a tad bit more time to have a chance to apply enough map and gen pressure.
Whether a few of the top tier killers might need some small nerfs is something that can then be seen, though I don't think these changes will make any killer op. If anything I could maybe see a small nerf to Freddy or Hillbilly being needed though, at least once most maps are balanced. Not sure about that though.
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How are these loops not improved a lot for killers? The fact there's a doorway close to the window will help killers so much to deal with those loops. These windows shouldn't be made useless either.
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I 100% agree with you. All this changes cause killer mains lose one game cause they are bad and they start crying on the forum
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I think that wreckers is getting a layout change. Doesn't it say size or layout?
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The ironworks one will only change how it's ran coming from 1 side (the stairs side). The only difference it makes when it's run on the correct side is that it's about 1 or 2 seconds shorter because running through the new doorway as killer will take you the same amount of time as vaulting the window like before.
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Let me put it in this way:
The realitiy is, that really good killers usually have the upper hand and only struggle against extremly good and well organized Teams. I am a killer aswell, and most of the time the only case i loose is exactly this scenario. Against solo players, a good killer will win most of the time unless he is really doing bad in this certain game.
Lets say, a okayish but not great killer verses 4 decent solo players or maybe 2 solo and one duo team, which is in most of the matches in red ranks the case. Those games can go both ways and are ballanced as far as it can get.
Now the point: Just changing one defense will hurt those survivors a lot! The god loops safed a survivor 30 seconds for example, but the killer was still able to have a decent chance to win. Now with the godloop change, survivors can not have the upper hand anymore, since this is a hugh interrupt for ballancing. Gaininig an extra 30 seconds every chase is just massive.
Having this one change might be still okay for survivors, they are definitly not on par anymore with the killer, but they still have a chance to succeed, evne tho the killer is the favourite now.
Now:
Increasing genspeed is minor, those 1% nerf for skillchecks might not be a big deal, but it is something.
Changing map sizes, even tho the would be only like 5% smaller is not a big deal, but it is something.
Changing and making loops weaker might not be the end of the world, but it is something.
Reducing pallets or tweaking loops might not be the end of the world if this would be the only nerf, but it is something.
etc etc
All this small to semi-big changes combined are just a really gigantic change to ballancing, which is totally unneccessary. Killers dont need GIGANTIC changes, because it is defniitly not the case that Survivors are extremly overpowered.
I am well aware that i have not seen these changes, but i and probably also you know the devs. They dont do "small little tiny mini changes" ... they take out the axe and cut the tree the most possbile insensitive way. Look at instaheals, look at toolboxes, look at legion, look at MoM look at Ruin, look at Spirit etc. I mean, Look at the screenshots and tell me this is not a really big nerf to those godloops.
I really hope i am totally wrong, but lets face it, the past showed different.
So my question stays: Why are devs not a little bit more sensitive and just do one change and then see how this goes instead of going completly rampage?
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Jumping the shark? Have you even tested the new changes yet? Sheesh... Give the ptb a chance dude, damn.
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They're not nerfing gens. They're encouraging good gen rushers. Great checks give 2% instead of 1% progression now. Good players buff.
They're also only slowing gens if multiple people are on it. Encouraging you to go to youe own gen, aka everyone on a gen alone, gen rushing.
This is gonna get fun REAL quick...
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Because when they do that (breakable walls, loop adjustments) people ######### and moan that its "only on one map" therefore not a legitimate change somehow.
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It's always the same with bhvr. They don't listen and change for a long time. And then they do multiple changes at once
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What?
Greats give 2% now, and they nerf them down to 1%. Thats not a buff, thats a nerf in my book but okay..
They are not only slowing down gens for multible people, they nerf plenty of other things aswell (Loops, Godwindows, map size, windows etc).
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Because right now having a small change here and there won't bring any real balance to the game. There trying to prevent endless looping by jungle gym into LT wall into a god loop and repeat. They are slowing gen speeds because it's being acknowledged that they are currently an issue. Maps are being mass reworked because of massive imbalances. Plus one or 2 map reworks a year is pointless when 4 are added every year.
After the ruin change a lot of killer's left or switched sides. The new killers leave due to how imbalanced it is. Even though killers have never been in a better spot with all the changes your losing a portion of the playerbase because of design flaws. With the devs currently trying to figure out methods for fixing this which a lot of the community believes to be great skill checks, gen speeds, and map designs. Though I haven't seen great skill checks mentiond in a long time. This is an attempt to move into a balanced direction.
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The windows are still strong if used correctly, the only difference is that you killers aren't forced to go through them anymore
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Where do you have this knowledge, that killers are leaving? For me it takes longer to get a killer game, which is a good indicator that there are currently more then enough killers around. On the other side, i have a survivor lobby almost instantly.
Also, i heavly disagree that killers are so busted right now and drastic changes are needed. When i look at those upcoming changes, i wonder how i might NOT get a 4K ever again.
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No offence but complaining on changes before anyone had a chance to play with them is way more jumping the shark then the devs ever did
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No offense taken.
I see the screenshots and i know how BHVR treat the game when they talk about changes. Some might have been justified like Nurse or Insta heals, but the stuff that is coming soon is only needed for one group of people: Killers who suck at the game.
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The way I read it definitely says it's being increased to 2% from 1% to "compensate" the 15% slow. Which as I said and you ignored, woll encourage MORE gen rushing, which is what their stab in the dark is trying to fix.
I also never said I had ANY issues with the loops or wi dows being changed, I actually said they were decent changes.
So go over what I ACTUALLY said, and respond to just that. I play both sides, more survivor, and I think the gen changes are going to cause more issues than they fix. They're promoting the problem they want to fix, with their "fixes".
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Considering the majority is in complete opposite of your experience where survivor takes 10 minutes or longer on avg que time and Killer takes no time at all. I'm either saying you happen to be lower ranked where that problem is or in a weird region.
Ok. Can't argue if your a god killer man at that point it wouldn't matter regardless what changes happen. Either way a lot of people have been struggling based on bugs and faulty map design's. The games balanced around the majority not the minority. Killers happen to be a minority in this game as 1 of 5 players, but are equal to 4 people since you need them to start a game. The games split in half by sides and should be balanced so killers have a actual chance to win. A lot of those changes are actually needed even if they didnt benefit the killer.
Anyways the only people that should be having real complaints are the survivors who only were good because they could exploit broken loops. It doesn't take much skill other than knowing which way to run on a god loop.
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For the record, Wreckers' Yard is not being reduced in size, only the layout is changing.
As for Mother's Dwelling, that's a fair question. While it is the largest map, it's actually right in the middle in terms of kill rates, favouring neither side. While the map is large, there's a lot of dead zones between tiles that make it much easier to capitalize on the mistakes of survivors. Keep in mind that the list of changes in this update are not the only maps that will ever be changed. We wanted to go through as many as we could in the time we had for this update, and we would rather focus on more pressing issues (like strong loops) than tweak a map that is already giving close to ideal results.
But for the screenshots we shared, I would strongly recommend trying them first. They can still be used well, but you'll need to put some thought into how you run them rather than getting a guaranteed three loops out of it every time.
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Your flame thread got closed, now you try to carry on here with pointless comments? This is not about a single game
I also think a screenshot is not enough to evaluate a new loop. You can say definitely they are not god loops anymore (which is totally what should be the result) but you can also say that they are not useless. How strong they are, can just be said after running them for a handful of games. And they are surely also differently strong against different killers.
@xEa The Ruin change was a huge thing which was needed, as they stated, to get clean data and justify changes correctly. Instaheals and MoM needed to be treated with an axe (and MoM is just bad because the protection hit rewarding is not working properly). Spirit was not treated with an axe and I still don't get why Legion is regarded as that bad. There are enough decent builds and I don't see them on such a bad spot.
And in my opinion, I don't think that killers are that strong. They are surely not in a bad spot, but I notice more seriously bad play from survivors causing most of the 4k. I just yesterday had 5 games in a row where I tried to test something about sabo and charge consumption. I wasn't even able to consume the toolbox before the game was lost sometimes. Like 3 gens done in total in these 5 games, and I started thinking if people intentionally throw games to have the next patch survivor sided again. People sitting next to hooks for the insta unhook, getting found 50% of the time, behaviour like people don't now scratch marks exist and so on.
Regarding the amount of changes: I'm pretty sure they have their stats and know how to read it. I was also confused about the list of changes, containing size reduction and containing Mothers Dwelling but not being Mothers Dwelling one of the maps being reduced in size. But I just guess
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If they take much smaller steps balancing in this game will just be too slow. They are already being accused of being to slow with balance changes, it's nice to see a patch that takes some bigger steps.
If a great killer goes against great survivors, the match is pretty even on balanced maps, but some of these maps were just not balanced. Balancing those maps and making some small tweaks to generators won't be too much in my opinion.
The problem you seem to have is related to matchmaking and ranking system. Solo survivor is rough at the moment because matchmaking matches people of very different ranks together, and to make it worse, many survivors that are at red ranks shouldn't be there, screwing over survivors that they are teamed up with that do belong in red ranks. If survivors need god loops to buy their team enough time against a killer, it's probably because there is one or two survivors in that team that shouldn't be part of the match and are not playing effectively.
Hell, I've seen survivors hide from a killer that is half a map away at red ranks.
But that has nothing to do with this game's balancing. We'll see but I think these changes could be the decisive changes that this game needs to get more people to enjoy killer again and to balance out queue times for both sides.
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If the only reason *you* ever won those maps is because of the god loops, then BHVR did exactly what they needed to do.
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jUsT pReSsUrE tHe KiLleR
XDDDDDDDD
or play civilization
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The way I read it definitely says it's being increased to 2% from 1% to "compensate" the 15% slow.
Am I missing something? This is what it says in the patch notes:
Great Skill Checks while repairing now give 1% bonus progression (down from 2%).
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Jaws confirmed next killer?
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They even gave the new time reductions.. from 1.6 seconds to 0.8 seconds. People just can't read.
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You misread it then. The current way it work is that 2% progression is given for great skillchecks. It has been halved to 1%. Bp for great skillchecks have been increased from 150 to 300 bp to make it worth it to go for greats. Only with Stake Out do great skillchecks result in a 2% progression.
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I think the changes are ABSOLUTELY necessary. Survivors ruled the game by a long shot. Now, they can't rely on god loops anymore (though they still have 30 second chance perks to rely on).
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Tiles had to be rearranged due to how they could be chained together. Adjacent jungle gyms or other combinations meant that an experienced survivor could chain 2 or 3 tiles without ever dropping a pallet at any of them until they entity blocked a window or two, and then they could loop the pallet portion and go back to an adjacent tile. Some of the Coldwind Maps were one long safe loop chained together. It was maddening if a survivor truly knew what they were doing. This patch seems very targeted towards high rank play. It's not going to appreciably affect players who were already going down quickly on Coldwind maps because they lacked experience.
As for gen speeds, I think it serves two purposes. One, as Peanits has stated in other threads, it's meant to eliminate situations where survivors can do a gen at the start of a match before a killer can possibly defend it. I suspect another reason is to convince survivors to equip Prove Thyself or Stake Out more often and drop a get out of jail free perk or two.
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do DC's and suicide's count towards the kill rates?
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Because the killer lose the chase that window is an infinite now and if the killer try to past from the hole he wont be able to hit the survivor
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Are you also going to be looking at the strongest killers in the game, who will get even stronger; with this patch? There is already nothing you can do except hide against Spirit, Freddy, Billy, and Oni with his power. Nurse already ignores any looping. You can barely get to the next pallet against a good billy / oni even with connected tiles.
I get that the maps can screw over some of the weaker killers, but that is only if they are not running the perks to deal with pallet loops (which they should be). Nerfing them all just makes the strongest killers able to stomp every solo Q team.
You keep saying "we didn't nerf the number of pallets, we just reduced the number of maze tiles" aka turning jungle gyms into unsafe pallets any killer can bloodlust at.
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One thing: If you rely on bloodlust, you will already struggle to get the 4k unless the survivors are moderately inefficient. And they already heavily nerfed the nurse already, and spirit got some changes (with which most apparently are not very happy with). So just a guess, but I think they will take a look
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Marth vid showed a window when if you loop, it forces you into the path of the door the killer walks through
it’s actually insane that got in the past initial testing
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I don't think you know what "jump the shark" actually means.
A.) There is very little attempt at publicity in this game. If anything they have a lack of publicity problem.
B.) The game is not irrelevant.
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They tried a single minor change at a time (aka the toolbox nerf patch). It clearly didn't make a dent (though admittedly that's probly because that was obviously the wrong thing to focus on). It's pretty much garunteed that another single small patch isn't going to make any progress. Logic dictates that they should try multiple small changes or a large change. It won't be till this patch gets fixed up and goes live that we'll know if this managed to just suppress the survivor advantage or give killers the advantage. And based on what I've read, I highly doubt this is going to swing the advantage into the killer's favor.
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