Gen speeds are fine

Lol no I wouldn't bring that behaviour to this board

No they don't. All one survivor has to do is last 20 seconds, easily lasting a minute or more in cases of them actually knowing how to idnetify pallets, and the other 3 survivors have already reset. That is standard vs any SWF. The fact that this happened with a corrupt intervention is what is so troubling. It means killer perks designed ad hoc to slow the game for the killer and give them a chance is not working. If he were not using corrupt intervention and the survs not using toolboxes then the result would be the same.

Items are 1/5th of a Survivors kit and while grouping up isn't a perk it does still have an opportunity cost.

Since they all blew their toolboxes on that one gen, that's 25% of their powerbudget (4 items and 1 perk).

The bit about lost opportunity. They don't lose anything inherent in popping that one gen. Against most players all that they need to do to recover and carry on is hold off the killer for 20 seconds. There's always the chance of simply escaping. The fact is, by ganking a single generate with their toolboxes they ensured that their toolboxes progression got used. If they had split up and started working on gens then the odds are high that they would have lost opportunity cost due to the killer regressing gens. This means they actually incurred no loss whatsoever. Their toolboxes were 100% efficient in this scenario.

Honestly, the game in the video is far more tame than the games I had played in the month before I uninstalled. I'd play an average of 8-12 games a day and of those over half, 6 to all 12, would all be SWFs. Sometimes with flashlights and chaining their effects, or medkits effectively restarting chases the whole game. Then there's invincible perks like BT, DS, ADR, etc along with time burners like Lithe,Sprint Burst, Balanced Landing, Dead hard, etc in conjunction and if I was real lucky there wouldn't be an Object of Obsession calling out all of my movements which is extra punishing because I was a Ghostface main. Even so it's always their best looper and guess what? There's no skill. He/she literally just has to sprint burst as soon as I get close and move from pallet to pallet, which is even easier since the rest of that team can call out where more pallets are. It's not uncommon to have only 1 hook by the time 3 gens get done in this environment.

And before you say "git gud"- I'm not the only one with this problem. I had played since the games release so it's not like I'm new to counter-looping.

"If its REALLY that broken then lets rework mori's too?"

Sure, and make ivory moris a base part of the game. The fact you would complain about this while survivors have keys is kind of odd.

Yes and when I started at a rank 20 I had a group of rank 1 swfs clicking their flashlights the only issue I truly see with the game at the moment because I truly understand both sides? Is the ranking system needs to be worked on completely and I dont think cross platform will truly help that. And no even though 99% of the community is toxic I would never say git gud it isnt funny at all to use really.

And yeah keys arent often used I play BOTH SIDES they have nerfed toolboxes, they have nerfed the syringe they have nerfed styptic agent they also nerfed bond to no longer work on gens, there are so many anti gen builds and perks to use.

It is 110% a point to use on how often you see it happen, it isnt a huge raging issue that I see they decided to use them all on one gen, when it would have been smarter to wait and use it on a gen when a friend is being chased. It is asinine to see how much killer mains complain I play on BOTH sides and so many killers complain about BNP and whatnot when they have corrupt intervention or pop goes the weasel to INSTANTLY REGRESS A GENERATOR BY 25% without having to hit a skill check where survivors have to hit 2 great skill checks for BNP to even work. There are so many anti gen builds you can run that have been given to us. Plus we have pyramid head coming out who DESTROYS deliverance and DS because if he curses them cool he doesnt need to pick them up just send them to the spiky box and if they struggle in the spiky box they have to hit skill checks to struggle if they miss it oof theyre dead. Theyre giving people what they want but then a by chance thing that happens in one game sets people off heavily its really depressing honestly when theres so much more important things to fix including just things not looking right? Theres still an issue with hooking people and having them appear where they arent supposed to be like floating and being on the porch instead of the basement so if the survivors didnt see them going to the basement they will risk a save at a wrong place and be hooked.

1)"The opportunity cost was spent by BRINGING the toolboxes"

Knowing what the result is before hand (like watching a youtube video) sure,but normally the cost is how they are used. If they all survive they keep the boxes, so it's not a loss if they just bring them. The loss is in using or misusing them. So if they use the most efficiently, they increase their chance of escape with no loss. The loss of potential only is incurred if they waste their generator progress, which they did not because they spent all of their boxes on the gen that popped.

2)"The gen popping a few seconds faster is the result of paying that cost."

That's a cost, but there was no better trade off. They made full 100% use of their boxes.

3)"They could have used it on seperate gens, it still would have been the same overall cost in terms of the items."

No, because the potential would have been wasted if one of those gens that had a toolbox working on them was regressed. In hindsight all we can say is that they wasted their boxes because we know they didn't escape, but generally bringing a toolbox incurs no guaranteed loss.

4)"The grouping up was also it's own (smaller) opportunity cost. As was bringing prove thyself."

The most you have implied is that they could have done an alternative. But given that they used the perk and the toolboxes to 100% efficiency despite a perk meant to counter that specific play style we can conclude that gen rushing is still more powerful than most killers can keep pace with and only at the cost of a few thousand blood points per person (assuming they lose, again they lose nothing if they get away). Since Prove Thyself only took one perk slot of the the 16 survivor perk slots, its use with their strategies is proven. It is a high value perk and they can still run DS, BT, Sprint Burst/Dead Hard/Lithe/Balance Landing, Unbreakable, Object of Obsession, etc.

Not only that but you've introduced the concept of scarce use for survivors but not the killer. The opportunity cost of a killer bringing Corrupt Intervention when he only has 4 perk slots vs the survivors 16 slots means he lost far more than they did. They put theirs to use while his was essentially squandered by the survivors putting theirs to use. He was essentially countered by their build.

I don't think you get what an opportunity cost is.

Every perk in the game has an inherent opportunity cost associated with it, because bringing a perk has the downside of not bringing all of the other perks. Same goes for items.

So in this case by bringing toolboxes it means they were unable to have any flashlights or medkits. The cost between games is unrelated to a balance discussion, the toolbox could be a non-consumable just like the perks are and it wouldn't make a difference.

The point I'm making is that the group spent a lot of opportunity cost towards getting that single instant of power.

By trying to complete that gen so fast they couldn't instead take more power for chases, healing ect. Which they could have done if they instead brought flashlights, keys or medkits.

It's not that they misplayed, they had a toolbox and they used it, duh (well they did misplay but that's because of the grouping part not the toolboxes). But just that in order for toolboxes to be worth anything at all, several of them should indeed get you a big change in gen speeds, otherwise there is no point in bringing toolboxes at all.

Ok?

The thing about opportunity cost was about completing a gen in 17 seconds instead of 20 (where 4 Survivors at 100% efficiency being a 20 second gen is where I'm getting the 20 from).

In a real game you'd get the hypothetical 20 second gen scenario by splitting up. You'd complete 4 gens in 80 seconds for 1 gen per 20 seconds.

Since we are assuming a Survivors is interrupted, it instead becomes 3 gens in 80 seconds for about 27 seconds a gen. The question of balance can then be brought up with if the Killer has the tools to win using the pressure from the hook, among a few other relevant questions. And some Killers are fast enough to simply down them before that first set of gens pop in the first place.

Either way that comes down to the specific Killer and is why I don't call every Killer viable.

But moving on, that isn't quite what this is about. The question isn't if the initial 20 second gens are balanced, but if using toolboxes to reduce it by 3 seconds is balanced. To which the answer would be yes.

Again that's effectively 12 seconds since it's 4 Survivors. 12 seconds for 4 toolboxes is balanced and covered by the opportunity cost of bringing 4 toolboxes.

It is, saying it isn't is basically saying that no pink addons or offerings are fair, so no ebony Mori, no skeleton key (tho I don't think anyone would complain if both of them were removed), no syringe, no rainbow map, no tombstone or fragrant hair Myers, no bookmark/matchbox nurse, etc.