Why BBQ is superior to its Survivor counterpart We Are Gonna Live Forever - and how to change that
I won't drop a wall of text here. Everyone clicking the title knows the two perks, so I will give short summaries:
BBQ:
- Has a very decent side effect that gives the killer a ton of information
- Scales off of something that, on average, will definitely happen each game. Getting stacks is almost a guaranteed natural thing.
WGLF:
- Has no other effect than points
- Stacks off of situations that aren't that easy to reach. Stacks are not "guaranteed" as only one out of 4 survivors will be allowed to unhook a person and depending on the game, this might never happen. The other option is Protection. Either take a hit for a mate directly, or eat one when he's being carried around. This makes it a rather situational perk.
- It once was a lot better (and capped at 200%, meaning 50% per stack so even 2 stacks could give you a 100% more points)
The problem: The 200% increased points caused people to farm others off the hook. You know how that goes, unhook, killer will eventually down him again, unhook him once more. Easy points, horrible game for the other person.
A suggestion:
- Remove Stacks from Unhooks. Add Stacks for Healing one state and for the person wiggling free (everyone who had the protection event in the last 30 seconds gets granted a stack). This would encourage people to help carried survivors and make sure they're actually fine after saving them.
EDIT: Self Care is excluded from this action. Stacks will only be granted on healing others.
Bring back it's old form and/or add a positive side effect, such as a little boost for healing others (Not on the level of We'll Make it but enough to be a nice side effect). There also could be an effect that works contrary to the killers perk, while he can see you from a certain distance with BBQ - the survivor (rescuer and unhooked one) could be allowed to see the killer if X meters away, which would allow the perk to give valuable information similar to BBQ.
Positive meta side effect of such changes: "Savior" perk layouts would be more rewarding to play.
F* it, I lied. It is a wall of text now. I hope some of you made it through. Feel free to give your own ideas.
Comments
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Give it tokens for cleansing totems and gens. Lowers necessity to farm. Encourages the punishment of campers if unhooking is hard (main reason campers win, is they take hold of the WGLF stack possibilities) and preventing NOED. Those 2 are really the only additions it needs. That and a freakin fix to the disgustingly buggy protection and reunion score events.
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@Jack11803 said:
Give it tokens for cleansing totems and gens. Lowers necessity to farm. Encourages the punishment of campers if unhooking is hard (main reason campers win, is they take hold of the WGLF stack possibilities) and preventing NOED. Those 2 are really the only additions it needs. That and a freakin fix to the disgustingly buggy protection and reunion score events.Totems are a solid idea, gens however..not so much. I see people leaving others behind, abusing the time the other guy is hooked to finish their gen and get their stack. It's the same as farming, just indirectly.
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No need to change that, because it already got balanced.
When the perk came out WGLF outclassed BBQ by a mile.
And guess what? Devs balanced it.
BBQ is kinda "better" because it solves SURVIVOR ISSUES. So the killer pick a perk, that helps solving the others side issues.
WGLF on the other hand does not help the killer in any way, so why should it be on the same level as BBQ?survivorlogic
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@Wolf74 said:
No need to change that, because it already got balanced.
When the perk came out WGLF outclassed BBQ by a mile.
And guess what? Devs balanced it.
BBQ is kinda "better" because it solves SURVIVOR ISSUES. So the killer pick a perk, that helps solving the others side issues.
WGLF on the other hand does not help the killer in any way, so why should it be on the same level as BBQ?survivorlogic
I just want more ways to get tokens. Perk offers 100% bloddpoints, I want to actually get the 100%
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BBQ was introduce as SUPERIOR perks in order to get enough killers playing the game again. Worked as intended.
Dont worry about the mess currently, in a week nobody plays spirit anymore, free weekend and double BP are gone and we will go back to normal
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@Jack11803 said:
@Wolf74 said:
No need to change that, because it already got balanced.
When the perk came out WGLF outclassed BBQ by a mile.
And guess what? Devs balanced it.
BBQ is kinda "better" because it solves SURVIVOR ISSUES. So the killer pick a perk, that helps solving the others side issues.
WGLF on the other hand does not help the killer in any way, so why should it be on the same level as BBQ?survivorlogic
I just want more ways to get tokens. Perk offers 100% bloddpoints, I want to actually get the 100%
Anyway, that does not answer my question, why should a survivor perk that benefits ONLY the survivor be equal to a killer perk that ALSO benefits the survivor?
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@Wolf74 said:
No need to change that, because it already got balanced.
When the perk came out WGLF outclassed BBQ by a mile.
And guess what? Devs balanced it.
BBQ is kinda "better" because it solves SURVIVOR ISSUES. So the killer pick a perk, that helps solving the others side issues.
WGLF on the other hand does not help the killer in any way, so why should it be on the same level as BBQ?survivorlogic
I just want more ways to get tokens. Perk offers 100% bloddpoints, I want to actually get the 100%> @Wolf74 said:
@Jack11803 said:
@Wolf74 said:
No need to change that, because it already got balanced.
When the perk came out WGLF outclassed BBQ by a mile.
And guess what? Devs balanced it.
BBQ is kinda "better" because it solves SURVIVOR ISSUES. So the killer pick a perk, that helps solving the others side issues.
WGLF on the other hand does not help the killer in any way, so why should it be on the same level as BBQ?survivorlogic
I just want more ways to get tokens. Perk offers 100% bloddpoints, I want to actually get the 100%
Anyway, that does not answer my question, why should a survivor perk that benefits ONLY the survivor be equal to a killer perk that ALSO benefits the survivor?
It causes killers to be more likely (not always) to perform a play style survivors (only sometimes) prefer. It’s no literal benefit, it’s not tangible in any way
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Would it hurt anyone if there were more ways to get stacks with WGLF? It still wouldn't compare to BBQ's aura reading anyway, so idk where you got that "should be equal" from outside of being able to get reasonable stacks, which only benefits BP. More ways to get a stack besides unhooking / taking a hit to reach the 100% gain would actually promote a more diverse play style for survivors.Wolf74 said:@Jack11803 said:
@Wolf74 said:
No need to change that, because it already got balanced.
When the perk came out WGLF outclassed BBQ by a mile.
And guess what? Devs balanced it.
BBQ is kinda "better" because it solves SURVIVOR ISSUES. So the killer pick a perk, that helps solving the others side issues.
WGLF on the other hand does not help the killer in any way, so why should it be on the same level as BBQ?survivorlogic
I just want more ways to get tokens. Perk offers 100% bloddpoints, I want to actually get the 100%
Anyway, that does not answer my question, why should a survivor perk that benefits ONLY the survivor be equal to a killer perk that ALSO benefits the survivor?
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As stated in another thread..... Killer perks are supposed to be stronger then the survivor perks --------> 1v4 .... the one needs to be able to handle the 4 right now it's starting to tilt that way... this is the best the game has ever been but the there is still the known issue of the objective being too easy for the survivors..
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killer perks should be straight up stronger than survivor perks, it's 4 perks vs 16
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@Bravo0413 said:
As stated in another thread..... Killer perks are supposed to be stronger then the survivor perks --------> 1v4 .... the one needs to be able to handle the 4 right now it's starting to tilt that way... this is the best the game has ever been but the there is still the known issue of the objective being too easy for the survivors..And this is why WGLF can’t be buffed? Hell, not even a buff, just a higher chance of it actually working!
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I'm just perplexed by how many people don't want blood points to be gained faster.
What the actual #########? It's like you guys enjoy the infinite grind.
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The title states "why BBQ is superior to WGLF and how to change that" ----> this means survivors want the same strength that BBQ gives which a lot of newer players or survivor mains dont understand this cant happen..0
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Your idea is not so good i mean i can see what you want to do but surrs aredy have more informations than killers in everythink.
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As long as you buff BBQ, I'm okay with the change ^^
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They just need to give WGLF reversed aura reading compared to BBQ.
Your friends deserve the best protection, unlocks potential in one's Aura reading ability. After unhooking a Survivor, the killer is revealed to the unhooked Survivor for 4 seconds when they are closer than 10/20/30 metres from the Killer.
Each time you rescue or take a hit to protect a Survivor, gain 25 % stackable bonus to all Bloodpoint gains up to a maximum of 50/75/100 %.
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@Shadoureon said:
They just need to give WGLF reversed aura reading compared to BBQ.Your friends deserve the best protection, unlocks potential in one's Aura reading ability. After unhooking a Survivor, the killer is revealed to the unhooked Survivor for 4 seconds when they are closer than 10/20/30 metres from the Killer.
Each time you rescue or take a hit to protect a Survivor, gain 25 % stackable bonus to all Bloodpoint gains up to a maximum of 50/75/100 %.
If the Killer is that close, chances are they're plainly visible anyway.
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And here we go /\ this would be as strong as BBQ... now what people dont understand is there would be 4 of these in a match right now as stated 30meters the killer would be in plain sight so what's the point.. back it up a little and you have a strong perk this would be meta and just as strong as BBQ which shouldnt be the case 1 survivor should be as strong as the killer it should be a team effort to winShadoureon said:They just need to give WGLF reversed aura reading compared to BBQ.
Your friends deserve the best protection, unlocks potential in one's Aura reading ability. After unhooking a Survivor, the killer is revealed to the unhooked Survivor for 4 seconds when they are closer than 10/20/30 metres from the Killer.
Each time you rescue or take a hit to protect a Survivor, gain 25 % stackable bonus to all Bloodpoint gains up to a maximum of 50/75/100 %.
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@Bravo0413 said:
Shadoureon said:They just need to give WGLF reversed aura reading compared to BBQ.
Your friends deserve the best protection, unlocks potential in one's Aura reading ability. After unhooking a Survivor, the killer is revealed to the unhooked Survivor for 4 seconds when they are closer than 10/20/30 metres from the Killer.
Each time you rescue or take a hit to protect a Survivor, gain 25 % stackable bonus to all Bloodpoint gains up to a maximum of 50/75/100 %.
And here we go /\ this would be as strong as BBQ... now what people dont understand is there would be 4 of these in a match right now as stated 30meters the killer would be in plain sight so what's the point.. back it up a little and you have a strong perk this would be meta and just as strong as BBQ which shouldnt be the case 1 survivor should be as strong as the killer it should be a team effort to win
I think WGLF should get more and easier ways to get tokens, and that’s it. But you’re completely wrong, that effect is far from meta, so far I don’t even care about it. You know how easy it is to track the killer with comms?
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How does BBQ help survivors in any way? Because it’s supposed to encourage you to go after those people across the map? For just hooking people like how most killers play? How is that even logical? Even if WGLF was based on something more reliable, it would still be used exclusively for bloodpoints, meaning they’re down a perk slot they could have used to play the game more effectively. BBQ doubles as a really good tracking perk and a reliable way to get bloodpoints. I don’t see why it would be so bad if survivors just got the reliable bloodpoints part in a perk. It wouldn’t even come close to being on the same level as BBQ in power. WGLF doesn’t have to give more bloodpoints than BBQ, but it needs to have a way to obtain tokens without screwing your teammates overWolf74 said:No need to change that, because it already got balanced.
When the perk came out WGLF outclassed BBQ by a mile.
And guess what? Devs balanced it.
BBQ is kinda "better" because it solves SURVIVOR ISSUES. So the killer pick a perk, that helps solving the others side issues.
WGLF on the other hand does not help the killer in any way, so why should it be on the same level as BBQ?survivorlogic
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I'd like WGLF to be reverted back to 200%. As a killer, with BBQ and a Pudding for example, I can get around 70-80k per game on average. With the events it goes up to 100k. Just give survivors back the original WGLF to make up the points.
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I can understand killers not wanting an additional effect on the perk, but some killers think survivors are innately op and should only be seeing nerfs, no matter what category it’s in and not letting up even for increased bloodpoint gains. Welcome to this dumb killer-survivor division of constant screeching at each other lolMc_Harty said:I'm just perplexed by how many people don't want blood points to be gained faster.
What the actual [BAD WORD]? It's like you guys enjoy the infinite grind.
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This is my recommendation for WGLF.
We're Gonna Live Forever: Your few friends deserve the best team mate. Each time you complete a generator, pallet stun the killer, sabotage a hook near a carried survivor, rescue or take a hit to protect a Survivor, gain 20 % stackable bonus to all Bloodpoint gains up to a maximum of 60/80/100 %. Whenever you unhook a survivor, reveal the killer's aura for 4 seconds if the killer is closer than 32 meters.
The Bonus Bloodpoints are only awarded post-trial.0 -
I actually forgot this post.
@Wolf74 I'm not a Survivor main or anything. I play about 95% killer. And how the hell does BBQ solve a survivor issue? It absolutely kills stealth and let's you initiate a chase far faster than without using BBQ. I never had a camping nature in this game, I always rushed of the hook to find the next person and this perk made in unbelievably easy for everyone to find and initiate another chase. It benefits killers greatly.
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@Dreamnomad said:
This is my recommendation for WGLF.We're Gonna Live Forever: Your few friends deserve the best team mate. Each time you complete a generator, pallet stun the killer, sabotage a hook near a carried survivor, rescue or take a hit to protect a Survivor, gain 20 % stackable bonus to all Bloodpoint gains up to a maximum of 60/80/100 %. Whenever you unhook a survivor, reveal the killer's aura for 4 seconds if the killer is closer than 32 meters.
The Bonus Bloodpoints are only awarded post-trial.That's just plain overkill. Fixing gens giving tokens for more BPs? Everyone would rush that. Games already have a problem with being way too short to be enjoyable (for either side, to be honest). Doing gens is not the intense part of the game, that we can all agree on.
All we need is more benevolent actions to give stacks. Healing should definitely be one of them.
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Making WGLF an information perk or not, my argument that there should be more ways to gain stacks for this perk still stands.
BBQ still has the most natural action - hooking - as a requirement for the stacks. I get 4 stacks of BBQ in 99% of my matches since the perk came out (and I have not played a match without BBQ if it was available to me, even on Tier 1).
At least the points should be balanced, Survivors should be able to reliably gain 4 stacks of their perk. Making more benevolent actions give stacks would also increase the benevolence generally (which also means they spend more time healing each other than self caring which means an additional person is not hogging gens at that moment).
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@Nerex7 said:
@Dreamnomad said:
This is my recommendation for WGLF.We're Gonna Live Forever: Your few friends deserve the best team mate. Each time you complete a generator, pallet stun the killer, sabotage a hook near a carried survivor, rescue or take a hit to protect a Survivor, gain 20 % stackable bonus to all Bloodpoint gains up to a maximum of 60/80/100 %. Whenever you unhook a survivor, reveal the killer's aura for 4 seconds if the killer is closer than 32 meters.
The Bonus Bloodpoints are only awarded post-trial.That's just plain overkill. Fixing gens giving tokens for more BPs? Everyone would rush that. Games already have a problem with being way too short to be enjoyable (for either side, to be honest). Doing gens is not the intense part of the game, that we can all agree on.
All we need is more benevolent actions to give stacks. Healing should definitely be one of them.
It's really not overkill. Generators should give tokens. Think about it. What is the one thing that killers are supposed to do? Sacrifice all the survivors right? So it makes sense that killers get tokens for hooking each survivor. On the other hand, look at what survivors need to do to survive. The one thing they have to do is generators therefore it makes sense to get tokens for that activity.
If the killer sucks at his job and doesn't hook anyone, then how are survivors supposed to get tokens? Why should survivors running WGLF be punished because the killer isn't doing his job? Even if the killer is hooking survivors, there is no guarantee that the survivors running WGLF are the ones that will get the unhooks.
If all 4 survivors are running WGLF, think about what is needed to be done for them all to get 4 tokens. If each of them got hooked twice, that is a maximum of 8 tokens that can be earned for unhooking. That means at most, 2 survivors got their tokens. The protection bonus is super buggy and not a reliable way to get tokens.
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@Dreamnomad The perk is called "We are gonna live forever" not "We are gonna gen forever". It's about benevolence and helping others to survive. While gens actually contribute to keeping people alive and helping them escape, it would hurt the game too damn much if gens would give tokens. It would be counter-intuitive to the whole purpose of being rewarded for teamplay, which WGLF was invented for.
It was a perk that offers you more points if you care about your teammates.
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@Nerex7 said:
@Dreamnomad The perk is called "We are gonna live forever" not "We are gonna gen forever". It's about benevolence and helping others to survive. While gens actually contribute to keeping people alive and helping them escape, it would hurt the game too damn much if gens would give tokens. It would be counter-intuitive to the whole purpose of being rewarded for teamplay, which WGLF was invented for.It was a perk that offers you more points if you care about your teammates.
I like how you counter your own argument. Working on generators is teamwork. Like you said, no one survives if generators aren't done. Putting yourself in a vulnerable, stationary position, giving your location away by making noise is the very definition of what should be rewarded. If you finish 5 generators by yourself, then you have earned a 100% bloodpoint bonus in my book.
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@Nerex7 said:
I actually forgot this post.@Wolf74 I'm not a Survivor main or anything. I play about 95% killer. And how the hell does BBQ solve a survivor issue? It absolutely kills stealth and let's you initiate a chase far faster than without using BBQ. I never had a camping nature in this game, I always rushed of the hook to find the next person and this perk made in unbelievably easy for everyone to find and initiate another chase. It benefits killers greatly.
- After WGLF came into the game, lobby waittimes for survivor skyrocketed, because to man ykiller player switched to play survivor to farm points. Killer needed a similar perk to fix that survivor issue.
- Survivor complain about camping and the Devs designed a perk that gives killer a reason to leave the hook = BBQ
- Survivor complained about getting tunneled and the Devs designed a perk that gives killer a reason to chase differnt targets to get their stacks = BBQ.
BBQ is NOT "killing stealth". Just play every game from the get expecting the killer to have BBQ.
This was how people had to play when SFTS was strong (yea, long time ago). You just avoided areas with crows back than, just in case the killer might have SFTS.
Now you have to be aware if the killer might have BBQ.
and honestly there are only 2 killer that can really benefit from the very short aura read.
There are many tactics to outplay that short 4 second window.
4 seconds to spot and evaluate 3 auras, with the option to hide behind gens and do trickplays.
If that "kills stealth", I call that a YOU problem.1 -
@DexyIV said:
I can understand killers not wanting an additional effect on the perk, but some killers think survivors are innately op and should only be seeing nerfs, no matter what category it’s in and not letting up even for increased bloodpoint gains. Welcome to this dumb killer-survivor division of constant screeching at each other lolI just don't understand the reasoning.
The perk only affects blood points. This game is known to have so much grind in it. Why shouldn't blood point perks get buffs?
When the new update hits, it'll take around 300 levels to not only get a character to Prestige 3 but to collect every perk after that. For each survivor and killer.
To get everyone to P3 and to collect every perk in the game it'll take around 8500 levels.
It's just baffling.
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The grind is caused by the cash grab road map.
By releasing more and more survivor and killer they flood the game with new perks every time.
That way it becomes very frustrating for new player. I am an "old" player, I already have most of the stuff.
Most of my killer are P3 and decked out with perks.
It's the new player that suffer and they will get forced to spent extra money to get auric stuff.
From a marketing standpoint, it needs to be grindy to make the people spent money.0 -
@Wolf74 said:
The grind is caused by the cash grab road map.
By releasing more and more survivor and killer they flood the game with new perks every time.
That way it becomes very frustrating for new player. I am an "old" player, I already have most of the stuff.
Most of my killer are P3 and decked out with perks.
It's the new player that suffer and they will get forced to spent extra money to get auric stuff.
From a marketing standpoint, it needs to be grindy to make the people spent money.Avoiding the question...
Do you enjoy the grind as it is now?
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@Mc_Harty said:
@Wolf74 said:
The grind is caused by the cash grab road map.
By releasing more and more survivor and killer they flood the game with new perks every time.
That way it becomes very frustrating for new player. I am an "old" player, I already have most of the stuff.
Most of my killer are P3 and decked out with perks.
It's the new player that suffer and they will get forced to spent extra money to get auric stuff.
From a marketing standpoint, it needs to be grindy to make the people spent money.Avoiding the question...
Do you enjoy the grind as it is now?
Avoiding reading?
I already answered.
I do not suffer from it, because I only need to catch up on a new killer every now and than and I do not buy survivor anyway.0 -
@Wolf74 said:
Avoiding reading?
I already answered.
I do not suffer from it, because I only need to catch up on a new killer every now and than and I do not buy survivor anyway.You told me why the grind exist and that either way you were unaffected by it.
I'm asking you which do you enjoy more. Less or more grind?
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@Mc_Harty said:
@Wolf74 said:
Avoiding reading?
I already answered.
I do not suffer from it, because I only need to catch up on a new killer every now and than and I do not buy survivor anyway.You told me why the grind exist and that either way you were unaffected by it.
I'm asking you which do you enjoy more. Less or more grind?
More! So the newbies can't catch up to me fast and have an edge about them to bully and mock them!
(Satisfying answer?)0 -
@Wolf74 said:
@Mc_Harty said:
@Wolf74 said:
The grind is caused by the cash grab road map.
By releasing more and more survivor and killer they flood the game with new perks every time.
That way it becomes very frustrating for new player. I am an "old" player, I already have most of the stuff.
Most of my killer are P3 and decked out with perks.
It's the new player that suffer and they will get forced to spent extra money to get auric stuff.
From a marketing standpoint, it needs to be grindy to make the people spent money.Avoiding the question...
Do you enjoy the grind as it is now?
Avoiding reading?
I already answered.
I do not suffer from it, because I only need to catch up on a new killer every now and than and I do not buy survivor anyway.Dude, it's a yes/no question. Do you enjoy the grind, yes or no?
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@Orion said:
@Wolf74 said:
@Mc_Harty said:
@Wolf74 said:
The grind is caused by the cash grab road map.
By releasing more and more survivor and killer they flood the game with new perks every time.
That way it becomes very frustrating for new player. I am an "old" player, I already have most of the stuff.
Most of my killer are P3 and decked out with perks.
It's the new player that suffer and they will get forced to spent extra money to get auric stuff.
From a marketing standpoint, it needs to be grindy to make the people spent money.Avoiding the question...
Do you enjoy the grind as it is now?
Avoiding reading?
I already answered.
I do not suffer from it, because I only need to catch up on a new killer every now and than and I do not buy survivor anyway.Dude, it's a yes/no question. Do you enjoy the grind, yes or no?
Yes, I play grindy games all the time, so I seem to enjoy it or be drawn to it.
Believe it or not. I like repetitive games.
This game has no endgame raid content, no endboss fight with your clan.
It's repetitive gameplay and only grinding keeps it going.1 -
@Wolf74 said:
Yes, I play grindy games all the time, so I seem to enjoy it or be drawn to it.
Believe it or not. I like repetitive games.
This game has no endgame raid content, no endboss fight with your clan.
It's repetitive gameplay and only grinding keeps it going.Take an awesome.
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Maybe I am just an addict. :P
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Give it a stack for each generator completed and teammate healed. Double points for being a productive survivor with 3 perks.0
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@ChesterTheMolester said:
Give it a stack for each generator completed and teammate healed. Double points for being a productive survivor with 3 perks.Are you kidding?
you can't be serious.1 -
Im Chester and not serious, my name is right there.Wolf74 said:@ChesterTheMolester said:
Give it a stack for each generator completed and teammate healed. Double points for being a productive survivor with 3 perks.Are you kidding?
you can't be serious.1 -
@Dreamnomad I countered my own argument and also told you why. Gens do help, but they should never be rewarded. The games already go too fast, giving the Survivors another reason to do their only objective even faster will kill this game in the long run.
Keeping WGLF a benevolent perk, which it was made to be, is the right direction. Every benevolent action should award stacks - that would be a solid solution for the perk to catch up to BBQ a little.
@Wolf74 and @ChesterTheMolester
Diving in to your discussion here - about the grind. I think the grind as it is is okay. Prestige means a lot of devotion to the game and getting it all done takes time - but not too long. The problem that I see in the grind that was also addressed by @Wolf74 are that they're adding more and more survivors and killers, resulting in even more perks to unlock.A simple solution to keep people from getting insane amounts of crazy good items while still reducing the perk grind is, to hand out more perks a web. Currently, every level will grant you a perk (with the exception of 2, 3 and 4 which will be addressed in the new patch however). Levels 1-20 won't give you a choice (level 10 being an exception) and post level 20, there will be 2 perks of which you can grab one.
A possible solution (as an example) would be shiftin the choices: 2 perks in levels 1-20 (one to take, one to be taken by the Entity). 4 Perks in levels 20+ (2 to take, 2 to be taken by the Entity). The prestige grind would stay exactly the same. Items are getting a tiny bit rarer (since there are 1-2 slots being replaced with perks).
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