"if we let killers know they are versing swf, they will always quit" Do you see what is wrong here?
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Right now, survivors at lower ranks have a unique protection, in that they will always face a killer of similar or lower rank to them. Killers used to have the same protections, but this was quietly removed some time ago.
This means that a high ranked survivor can die on hook repeatedly to artificially drop their ranking down to silly levels to face lowbie killers exclusively. This wouldn't be such a problem, except that then, if they queue with a rank 1 survivor, they will still face a killer rank-matched with the lowbie, allowing them to face-stomp lowbie killers at will. Check the pics I linked above. This is basically typical of 1/2 my matches at present. It's really common - mostly streamers who want to look amazing.
For a while, there was a unique protection against this, where a SWF group would always face a killer of a similar ranked killer to the highest ranked survivor in the SWF group. But this was also quietly removed.
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I'm repeating for special people, who don't read but rather look through, I never said SWF are OP. They simply brake the game, which is much worse.
I never said most SWFs are OP, if we started talking about that, I never had problems against such groups, unless I'm playing M1 killers which are generally bad and extremely demanding to the point it's just not worth playing them against any competent players. I don't care if the people in a SWF are good players or bad players. I simply don't care, because this isn't about skill or winning. It is about legal cheating which is the voice comms that not only make many pretty interesting playstyles and entire killers totally irrelevant against them, but also entirely replace at least a dozen of survivor's perks. There's no fair game or entertainment while facing SWFs, even if they are trash. Saying there's nothing wrong in SWF because "pOoR sUrViVoRs mIgHt bE bAd" is like saying there's nothing wrong in cheating because you are so bad, that you can't win even with cheats. That is what you sound like. Pretend that SWF aren't a problem because some cheating survivors are so bad, that they can't win even with cheats.
Voice comms contradict original (and as it seems current, since nothing was done to change the situation) design of survivors (which is them being unable to communicated anyhow but with gestures - lorewise and gameplay wise) and devs must do something about it, be it either allowing killers not to play against cheaters or buffing solos to level of cheaters and buffing killers or simply deleting SWF outside KYF mode. Saying "just ignore the problem, because you can still win" is pathetic .
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Any. The problem just becomes worse and worse the more people are in SWF. 2 man SWF doesn't brake the game the way 4 man SWF breaks it, yet even communication between 2 survivors out of 4 is unfair advantage.
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Playing together is in game and I never said JUST playing together is cheating. Play the way the game is intended to be played and I (as well as many sane players) won't say a word.
Using ######### voice comms is cheating which is not bannable only because "We can't prevent people from communication, they are going to use phones if we ban 3rd party programmes" (c) you know who.
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they can't fix people want to play with they friends and using chat program solo use to be the normal way to play.
no don't work at BHVR but are you rell me swf not broken? soloQ not a nightmare now?
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Nearly every other game with an SWF/premade ability compensates for this by either inflating the MMR of people queuing together (meaning that they will face a more challenging opponent) or granting the other side a bonus of some kind.
It's easy to fix without removing SWF.
However, for some reason, not only won't BHVR fix it, they've even walked back some of the fixes they made in the past.
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Except we've seen time and time again this doesn't work in Dead By Daylight. In more competitive games, slightly inflating lower MMR players to their higher MMR friends is generally the best way to handle premade matchmaking. In DBD, we saw just how many "sweat squads" are actually out there when every red rank killer was getting 3 rank 20 babies and 1 person above rank 5 almost every match when BHVR enabled premade matchmaking. It was awful and every single killer streamer commented on their negative experience with it. OhTofu and ScottJund still have youtube videos out from when it was enabled.
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I would disagree and say that 2 man groups are fine for the most part as there still are a constant number of unknown variables that make it a bit more fair imo
But wouldn't the best way to fix swf would be to fix solo (specifically matchmaking) ? I assume that most people play swf because solo is extremely frustrating. Im using my personal experience here but I have been playing solo a lot lately and its not fun to play with people who have no clue of what they are doing. So they play with someone at least who is close to their level who knows how to play the game well.
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No, that's fair.
If you are making an SWF group with 3 low rankers, that's your business.
By undoing it, you've just propogated the problem in the other direction, where 3 red ranks can queue with someone who artificially tanks their rank to endlessly grief new killers.
EDIT: Keep in mind that killers can't tank their ranks in this manner. AFKing and DCing are bannable and penalized, respectively. Killing yourself on a hook is not.
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Dude, it doesn't matter how's that compensated, the very fact that players can freely gain access to unintended advantage is unacceptable
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This would mean that the Killers you go against are good. But Killers are also victims of the easy Ranking-System and almost non-existing Rank Reset, there are a lot of mediocre (at best) Killers in Red Ranks. I am one of them.
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If killers knew they were going up against a swf they would obviously lobby dodge. However I wouldnt mind being told it was a swf "AFTER" the match is over so I know that group was in one.
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If killers would dodge any SWF, then that must mean they don't want to play against something. I remember the last time nobody wanted to play against something, it was reworked into current Legion
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If killers would dodge any SWF, then that must mean they don't want to play against something
That reminds me of the people who justify lobby dodging because it's a killer they dont like lol
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Shrug. I've already started doing this, if I even suspect it's a smurfcomp. Like - if I see 4 people with prestige skins at my crappy rank - yup, dodging. So sick of unbeatable BM smurf groups.
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Nah man, something basically every Killer would prefer to avoid because it gives unfair advantages can´t be bad, can it? It´s the Killers, they want ez 4ks every single game and survivors spawning hooked. Nothing wrong with enhancing the performance of a group way above their actual level via insane coordination and free information, it´s hard as-is as survivor /s
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Indeed, how could I only have the audacity to ask for fixes for something so fair and balanced
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It's also like: If survivors want to endlessly stomp lowbie killers, it's easy to do. Just get a mate to die on hook while watching The Boys until he hits rank 15, then queue up with him.
If killers want an easier game...?
There's a double standard here. A big one.
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Think about it, what will this do with SWF? Very likely most people who enjoy playing with their friends (and many play with their friends) will leave the game and search for a better alternative.
Now the masterquestion: What will this do with the game?
If you think this wont kill the game, you are terrible wrong.
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Pretty insane how you miss the point so blatantly. 6+ perks for free definitely does not give you an advantage, that makes a lot of sense. Coordinating who's on gens and who isn't even if chases last 10 seconds is definitely not incredibly detrimental to the killer. Being able to optimise every single aspect of the survivor team's side even though killer is balanced around the fantasy that survivors have no communication between them.
Definitely not a problem.
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Ah yes, I totally forget that I have to play Gens when I play Solo. Do you think Solo Survivors are so dumb that they need another person telling them to do Gens?
But yeah, keep blaming SWFs instead of improving on your game.
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Oh, where'd the go, what other 4v1 assymetric game could they find which isn't going to die and which has somewhat bearable balance? Oh yeah, right, there's none. Devs should realise that and stop making everything to please "im just playing with friends" bullies
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Yet again you miss the point, bruh, you aren't even funny
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I'm sorry but i just don't see it when great killers are able to get 4ks against swf.
I'm all for making the game more fair for both killers and survivors but for this instance I'm just unconvinced.
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wdym
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Do you seriously think people play this game because its 4v1 and there are no better alternatives?
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Solo survivors cannot coordinate who's going for an unhook. They cannot take the killer far away from people on gens. They cannot know when to heal and when to rush. UNLESS they are in SWF or waste a perk slot to do so. Stop pretending like it's not a problem just because you can't imagine games actually requiring skill and strategy from survivors.
No one wants to get rid of SWF. Just because I enjoy playing with my friends that doesn't make me blind to the fact that it's incredibly unfair. The devs can't keep ignoring that fact, cause it's been proven it's physically impossible to stop an optimal SWF and we've seen that a number of times in tournaments, experiments, streamer videos, etc etc etc. Either core mechanics get changed to be more fair towards killers and solos or killers get buffed until they're able to compete with the power coordinated teams have.
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You do realise that 4 man swf would have to do one gen for over 120 seconds with your change, right?
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i just wanna get an indicator for who was SWFing with who in the end result screen.
thats all i really ask for...
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I mean I'm unconvinced of your argument as to why swf needs a nerf. Especially against 2 man groups.
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It is your words, you said that if devs do anything about SWF, these people will instantly move to the other game.
But here's the thing, they won't. They'll just accept it eventually, especially under pressure from the other sane part of the community and will keep playing, because if they wanted to leave, they wouldn't need SWF nerf.
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Ah, "Streamer Videos". Only because said Streamer said that he has gone against an Top 1% SWF, does not mean that this is true. E.g. one of the Streamers claiming this on a regular basis gets the same Survivors as I, since we play on the same Servers. And either they are always Solo in my games and always in an SWF in their games, or the Streamer is incorrect.
Tournaments... Tournaments are a Joke. Sorry, to say that, but only if someone wants to do a tournament every few months, does not mean that they are valid at any point. You can watch a tournament and then come to the conclusion that this game is not ready for tournaments, but thats it.
Of course you can balance around Top 1% SWFs, if you like. Go ahead, do so. But I hope that the game will also be balanced on 1% Killers, so that 99% of the Playerbase will not have any fun anymore. This sounds great. While it is true that an optimal SWF (like, really, really Top Tier Players) are most likely unstoppable as long as you are not a REALLY strong Nurse- or Spirit-Player, these groups exist on a much smaller basis than players would think.
And pretty sure the Devs know about this, but again, it does make 0 sense to balance the game around those groups. If Killers would be so strong that they would easily be able to stomp those strong Survivor Groups (or even if they would be on par with them), you would screw up so many players. And the game will simply be dead. And this is something the Devs will know, because they have more knowledge of designing this game than those "Wannabe-Developers" here on the Forums who propose Ideas like balancing around the Top 1%.
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What you are saying here is - SWF groups are actually looking for an unfair advantage, and will quit if it's removed?
That sounds like a win/win situation to me.
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This is fair.
But a killer deserves to know its a SWF. It may not make you gods, but it makes you far more effective at tracking a killers movement and letting others know when it's safe to do things. A Killer should have a chance to slot his best addons and perks for the match. He shouldn't be hoodwigged into bringing his meme build with no add-ons against a Tac Ops squad.
Additionally, there should be a reward for killers who are up for the challenge. A BP Point increase, more Iridescent Shards contribution for the match. Something non-game breaking that may serve as just a little extra incentive.
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Because the fact that 2, 3, 4 survivors can share and gain information that they were not supposed to have directly brake the game. Just because some survivors are so terrible, that they lose even with that, it doesn't mean that SWFs don't need fix.
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I don't think anyone has said to "balance the game around the top 1%".
They just want the game to be balanced around normal swf with comms, solos buffed to swf level, and killers buffed accordingly.
What's wrong with that?
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Oh, and that. Since most SWFs from my 4 year experience were trying to be bullies with all that tbagging and clicking crap, I would only be glad if they actually leave the game.
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Ok, we won't balance the game for top 1%.
But don't even dare to show up in Deathslinger/Phead/Spirit/other "no mistake=op" kinds of discussions and say how nerfing X because some people can play without mistakes on it and shred everything is a good idea, please.
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Yes, they will leave the game for sure, if this is unfair and not enjoyable anymore, why should they stay? Also they are not seeking for another 4v1, they will seek for ANY game that is fun. I mean think what you want, but that does not really matter since devs know that survivirs will leave. And they also know that this would kill the game. Pretty obvious to me, guess not for you tho.
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What i am saying is, people play for fun. If it is not fun anymore, they will leave, period. No room for discussion, if oyu think its unfair, thats your problem, but it wont change anytime soon, at least not that drastically.
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"Information they were not supposed to have"
Could you provide some examples to back up this claim?
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That happens only at really low ranks though.
Once I got above Rank 12, I never ran into a "bully SWF" in the sense of they just swarm the killer, taunting him, blinding him, trying to see how often they can pallot stun him... etc. or at least one that I didn't thank them for trying, when I had 1 person on hook and 2 people on the ground nearby. The only thing a Bully SWF makes me regret is not slotting Putrid Oak offering.
Forrest Gump: "Sometimes... thars jus' not enough hooks..."
And if they're in a situation where they've already won the game gates open, and wanna have their fun, just walk to an isolated area of the map far from both gates. That "bully sesh" will quickly go wrong for them.
Sweaty SWF comps may feel like bullying, but I don't consider tryharding bullying.
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>unfair and not enjoyable anymore
Oh, now we are talking about "unfairness" and how it is difficult to enjoy the game. Without being able to capitalize on cheats or having downsides for a possibility to use such. Lmao
>ANY game that is fun
DbD can be fun even without comms, unless you are a sweaty tryhard who only wants to win every game and bully killers by abusing immunity perks.
>I mean think what you want, but that does not really matter since devs know that survivirs will leave. And they also know that this would kill the game. Pretty obvious to me, guess not for you tho.
Infinites fix will kill the game
Addition of exhaustion will kill the game
DS nerf will kill this game
Pallet vaccumm nerf will kill the game
Removal of exhaustion recovery will kill the game
BnP nerf will inevitably kill the game
Pallet reduction will kill the game
Another DS nerf will surely kill this game
Syringes nerf will kill the game
Yeah, sure.
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Bruh it's really insane how tunnel visioned you are about your point of view, first of all I'm not saying what they SAY is unchangeable truth. It takes just a few minutes of watching them go against a decent team to realise there's way too many times where there is absolutely NOTHING you as killer can do to counter survivors. It's happened to Otz, Zubat, Umbra, if it weren't a common occurrence there wouldn't be so many people complaining about it and there wouldn't be literal hours of evidence of this issue. Before you assume I take their word as if it were the ######### bible think about why their experiences are valuable. They have thousands of hours and most of that is documented online, calm tf down. Plus I find it quite hypocritical how you think your "counter argument" that you constantly go against the same people and they're always solo means they're a bunch of biased liars who don't know what they're talking about.
Tournaments ARE a joke, that's the point. It is the most OBVIOUS proof that when playing with comms there is ABSOLUTELY NOTHING a killer can do to tip the scales. So organisers have to come up with different rules to dictate who wins and who loses or they end up being a borefest because of how incredibly unengaging they are and how fast gens fly. Plus, again you fail to see the bigger picture what a surprise. Why do you think the game is not ready for tournaments? Maybe because it's unbalanced? Just a thought.
Are you saying games shouldn't be balanced around players with the most skill? Should R6 remove core mechanics so that coppers and silvers have an easier time playing comp? Should we make bullet hitboxes larger too? What about Rocket League? Should they remove techs and movement possibilities so that everyone else has an easier time? If a killer has more skill and experience than survivors, then they should absolutely destroy them, as well as the other way around. If both teams were on equal ground and had the same possibilities to win then being together or on comms wouldn't even be a question, but the fact is that when survivors can callout the exact location of the killer, their perks, traps, etc there is NO way the killer can counter the advantages survivors get (for free I might add).
Like I said, most games with a sensible balance team have incredibly high skill ceiling and are doing perfectly fine. The only reason this game is not dead is because it has no competition. All other asymmetrical horror games have vastly different core mechanics that simply don't work as well as Dead by Daylight; just because I -sadly- enjoy the game doesn't mean I think it's perfect and has no flaws.
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I'm not going to cover all examples since I'm going to miss some and there are just too much. Here are most gamebreaking from my opinion:
- Any killer aura reading perk, like OoO or Alert - one sees killer's aura and tells the others. Even knowing the brief position is enough for survivors to adjust their moves.
- One survivor follows the Trapper/Hag/Gorgon tells others where they leave their crap so others are more cautious. It's most gamebreaking for trapper, since you have so little chances of catching people in traps, that you can just give up on using them.
- One survivors knows if killer has certain perk - all survivors in SWF know the killer has that perk. For example good survivors tend to pre-drop pallets against spirit fury. Against good solo survivors the combo can be used up to 4 times if none of them happens to see it proc on other. Against SWF you can capitalize on that combo only once, then all survivors will do ######### to counter it.
Nothing wrong here, yeah.
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Lets make this short and answer this questions
1) Do you think people want to play the game with their friends?
2) Do you think there are other multiplayer games apart from DbD?
3) Do you think BHVR need money?
4) Do you think BHVR can not stop communication from 3rd party?
If your answer was always YES, then all you sayed is irrelevant. TY
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In high ranks it's just a super optimal squad that does all gens, 99s both gates and then messes with you as long as they can before EGC starts&ends or you give up. Or, if you manage to beat them, they all just DC at once (and if I remember, there's still an exploit through invitation system that allows 3 survivors to bypass leaving penalty). Very fun, yeah.
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They literally proved our point against them when they said that. So many killers complain about SWF. I wonder why?
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Yeah, in that case, not much you can do. To me, Bully SWF has a very particular profile. Basically 2-3 survivors who are good (relative to their level) at chasing, all armed with flashlights, just try and torment baby killers who don't understand some core mechanics. I ran into them a few times when I was first starting out, when I didn't know to face walls while picking a survivor up, didn't understand the difference between safe pallots and unsafe pallots, didn't understand Dumb Techs or how they worked... etc.
Nowadays, 3 people wanna try to Torment me, cool... that's 3 morons not working on gens, feeding me downs.
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Implement in game comm system then balance killers around the assumption that in game comms are being used by all survivors. Period. Problem solved. End of subject.
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