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"if we let killers know they are versing swf, they will always quit" Do you see what is wrong here?
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Oh, I was not talking about people like Otz, Umbra or Zubat. They are also not the ones who complain, if I remember correctly. In fact, Umbra said in a quite recent stream that balancing around Top Players would not make sense in DBD. And overall I think that Viewers are more butthurt about the Streamers losing a game than the Streamers itself. ScottJund made a video about that and he mentioned that his Chat was trying to find excuses for him losing, while he was just making mistakes. And this is often happening with Fanbases of Streamers.
So yeah, I was only talking about one Streamer here, because their videos are posted quite often on this Forum. And I go against the same players as said Streamer and while they are good, it would be highly unlikely that they are always Solo Players in my games and always SWFs in their games.
Tournaments are a Joke, because the game has too much RNG. Thats the starting point. You cannot really do a tournament if the same Map can have 8 Pallets in one game and 16 Pallets in another game. Like, yesterday I had a game against a Huntress (she was a really good player) on Wreckers Yard and there was no Jungle Gym on the entire Map and HUGE Deadzones (there might have been 1 Jungle Gym, but I cannot confirm that, but I know for sure that there was no Jungle Gym in around 90% of the Map since I saw that much from it). Now, a different Huntress can have the same Map without Deadzones and more Jungle Gyms. Its not like Wreckers Yard would be hard to play, it is one of the more balanced Maps in this game, but the second Huntress would have had a much harder time than the first Huntress. But you cannot say that one of them is better. This is the first issue and this alone would make tournaments stupid (unless we get Map Seeds at some point).
Regarding comparison with other games: Not really worth to go into that. Are those games asymmetrical? If not, you cannot really compare them to DBD. Because you dont have Killer vs Killer or Survivor vs Survivor, you have 4 Survivors vs 1 Killer. And making Killers so strong that they can compete with the best Survivors out there, would screw everyone over who is not as good. Why would you even play the game when you have no chance at all?
And this is the difference between what SWF is and what people claim SWF is - SWF is not unbeatable at all, in fact, most SWFs are not good at the game. And Killers would also dodge those groups. Like, I have beaten 4 man SWFs (small Streamers, so I was sure they were in an SWF), but got completely destroyed by Solos. I also went against some players who participated in Hexys Tournament, and the result was as expected. But those are exceptions, most of the time I lose, it is because I mess up. If 3 Gens get done in my first Chase, it is not because some guy told his friends that they should do Gens, it is because I go on a Chase for that long (and maybe bad spawn points if they spawn on 3 different Gens at the start). Sure I can say "Bruh, SWF, give them huge penalties on action speed!!", but nah.
Overall, I think I will ignore this Thread from now on. This discussion is pointless. SWF will stay in the game and there will be no indicator before the game. Killers should learn to blame their mistakes on their own and not on SWF. And I am for a SWF-Indicator postgame, because that might open the eyes of some people and I am also curious what the next excuse from players who complain about SWF would be, when they find out they lost against 4 Solos.
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Need proximity chat both killers and survivors can hear. Won't stop the third party comms for unscrupulous folk but it'd add a little more to the game.
It's fun to see how this blew up so fast and where everyone's morals and ethics lie.
Ya'll have fun practicing your rhetoric, try not to strain yourselves too much.
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To your points made sure you have information, but it comes down to if the information is useful or not
1. Perks like alert does give you information but its not very useful. Alert makes it so that the killers aura is show when they perform a break action. The problem with this is that this is not useful information. I could say to my team that the killer is braking something but thats vague. "The killer is breaking something." Is it a pallet? generator? Door? This doesn't help swf. And Object of obsession may be broken in swf but thats a flaw with the perk itself and not the team that uses it.
2. This has the same flaw with the first one being that the information is not useful. To good survivors when your playing against a trap killer you assume they are going to be placing traps near windows, pallets, loops and the basement because that's an effective strategy. You don't need a swf group to know that oh the killer shack has beartraps around. Relaying this information isn't useful to good survivors, you might as well tell me that humans breathe air.
3. You can often tell what perks the killer has based on their play styles if the game doesn't outright tell you. For the example you provided you can still get use out of the perk if survivors make a mistake. Sometimes survivors can make a mistake of what perks tha killer have if its not obvious.
In conclusion thees issues may provide information but the information has to be useful to make any sort of impact. And if your arguing that they shouldn't have this information then I have to say that it was information they were going to get regardless right? What does it matter that they get the information sooner rather than later.
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So you are saying that knowing where killer is/other survivors are isn't useful or gamebreaking? Really? Also, just because you figure out the perks, knowing what they are because you were told instead getting to know yourself like in example with spirit fury, can be game changing
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would you consider kindred "cheating" because it offers the benefits of comms
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given that the information i have is useful. In 2 man its even less useful imo. But gamebreaking I don't think so.
And just because others know the perk the killer has doesn't mean they won't have any use of it. If the survivors know that the killer has bbq that doesn't mean that they won't get any use out of it.
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you do know they been looking into MMR and swf and solo right also remember this 1vs4 game there not many game like this it what it messed up.
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(Google Translate)
Do you want to correct the problem with SWF? Here is the solution:
- Make the game free to increase the playerbase
- Implement CrossPlay to increase the playerbase: Done
- Implement MMR and a decent ranking progression system
- Implement Solo and SWF queue
- Implement option to accept or decline the match during the queue
- Implement loss of ranking progress when leaving the room after accepting the match
- Let all players know which map will be played after entering the room
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Just know this, if there was an endgame counter for SWF play. Either killers would be put in their place as it doesnt help. Or it would prove them right and destroy the survivor playerbase
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From what I've been reading and having experience on both sides, SWF /can/ be a problem. There will always be advantages with swf over soloing because in general usually as long as you're decent you'll have more information.
My experience solo rank 1: Tunnled, left on hook to die, unreliable teammates, toxic teammates who T-Bag or point at me instead of save, or tunnled off first hook to be immediately mori'd and I basically did nothing but get chased and de-pip. (I personally like doing gens and find the constant bar going up soothing).
With SWF: Reliable team mates, I'm not left on hook too often, I have more information, killers still usually are a challenge so the game is still fun. People don't even realize I am in a swf half the time cause we all play on different consoles :-/ and we're not toxic. Most swfs are like 2-3 people who just play normally with a bit more information. Yes optimized four man swfs can destroy killers but even then I've seen killers wipe the floor with them (especially killers like spirit and hag).
Y'all seem to forget survivors rely on a team. You can't do 5 gens unhook and run the killer the whole game by yourself it's just not possible... Trust me I've tried. When I'm solo my teammates are usually so toxic or just sit and hide half the match while I'm being tunnled cause I'm the only one brave enough to stay around when I hear a terror radius. It's frustrating for killers and survivors and I don't like toxic/tryhards swfs. They make the game boring and overly competitive, but most swfs aren't like that. You probably go against/play with swfs all the time and just don't notice.
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You really missed the whole point, sad.
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This would be more because killers get seriously butthurt when they get 4e'd and less to do with how strong SWF is.
For the record SWF is strong, and sadly it always will be by the very nature of it. You will never see 4 players play worse with comms than without. Just facts. That said there are ways to mitigate the strength, but even then killers would REEEEEE and dodge SWF.
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people like you are the reason game is going to die one day. why solve the problems when we can just pretend there are none, right?
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Please christ say there's an issue with comms, start with that. No one's going understand why swf is an issue and you'll find yourself explaining this a billion times.
I hate it when people say "swf is a problem" without specifying why. You know these people are going to be confused or purposefully obtuse
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I literally say "solve the problem". But why read the actual post when you can REEEEEEply faster without it?
Maybe actually acknowledge that a lot of killers are babies and will still dodge even if it's solved.
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I've been on both sides and I could tell you how OP it is. Even with a team of newbie players, it breaks the game
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Comms are the issue, not swf. The big issue is the devs not giving solo comms, using weak excuses like a language barrier, when they're too lazy or too incompetent to add it.
Give solos comms, and buff killer hard to compensate, problem solved. That or have dbd disable the mic.
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This has been explained to death, I just don't think they care. No one is interested in a compromise, they're fine as long they aren't the ones who miserable, despite the fact that both sides should be concerned about this.
The appeal of DBD is the mystery at the start of the match, but I get it. I understand using Discord, I just wish it didn't break the game. It's another issue of the devs needing to get with the times.
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Why are you being an #########?
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This is the only real answer.
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Yes. I am being the #########.
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I think that even devs cant answer that.
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Okay so we could use a program that give us somekind of advantage out of game but is not cheating either. What happened to this game was that they ######### it trying to make a multiplayer without comms and as survs are main income they allow this bully simulator.
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why to waste money doing it they have discord. bussiness IQ over 9000
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I would at least like to see after a match, who was in a swf with whom. Survivors often don't wanna admit, when asked, if they were in a swf . Would be nice, just for the info. Only then I could really tell, if swf is harder to play against or not.
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exactly the problem is not the fact they play together the microphones are. they get so much unfair information the killer doesnt get out of survivors by any way... they get so many perks for free, so many aura reading perks for free is actaully insane, and the killer gets nothing.
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So that it is an unplayable for the people playing by themselves,
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If it was an intended feature then we would have in game comms.. the fact is from day one this game was designed so the survivors could not communicate. This is common knowledge. But then discord became popular and the devs had to go with the flow or lose customers. No one thinks playing with your friends is cheating, but communicating over comms is a clear advantage that is undeniable.
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The amount of whining I'm seeing on this thread is insane. I have played killer and played against swf sometimes I still win, and sometimes I get abused but that's on me and the only way to get better is to learn how to play against them and to beat them. I also play a survivor and I enjoy it more yes when I am playing with my friends but that does not make us god here and sometimes the killer still beats us all the whining that comes and surviving with friends automatically makes the game unfair or is cheating is silly play better and that includes me when I'm playing killer or if I get caught a survivor
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When in a chase and noticing a lit totem or the hatch this can be directly indicated to the team. The team at that point can send someone over to cleanse the totem or with a key organize an escape.
When a killer breaks chase, the player can call this out and making it far easier to avoid the killer.
When a gen is nearly completed while working on it solo, but the killer interrupts them this can be communicated and someone can swap from their generator to that area and fix it.
If the killer is near the hook, this can be communicated to indicate when it is safe to come for the save, whether to stay on gens etc.
It gets even worse when one of the members wears OoO they can simply state exactly where and what the killer is doing throughout the trial and the team can respond all 4 to that information.
There is simply benefits to gaining this information that is usually reserved for slot perks, no need to carry information perks and therefore opening slots up for other perks to help you in your gameplay such as chases, generator completion, healing, etc.
Seriously if people do not understand that information is extremely important in this game?
That said people that claim it would be bad to know how large the teams are you are facing, that killers would instantly all quit the lobby... frankly noticing that there is a SWF is in there is quite simple, many have a tag or similar names, wear the same outfits, pop into the lobby at nearly identical times and one can inspect profiles. It just makes it a bigger hassle, why the need for secrecy?
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Swf is fine the only thing that makes them unfair is comms. But the devs can't do anything about it since consoles have built in comms or discord. Its in the game there's nothing we can do about it. But most people who say they only play for "fun" are usually the ones who all bring meta perks with flashlights. The only change I want is if its a group of 3 or 4 they should not be able to bring more than 2 of the same perk in the group. They just want to play for fun right? Perks shouldn't matter.
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I'm am all for making the game fair for both sides, but here to me his argument was a bit flawed that made me unconvinced of his main point.
Believe it or not some off us try to listen
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like I could be streamsniping one of the survivors to know exactly where they are. That's technically not cheating too .
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Ok i can understand what your saying about information for the most part.
But in the end doesn't it just come down to skill. A swf group can have all the information in the world but of they don't have the skill to survive then it makes the information useless doesn't it?
A killer thats able to effectively outplay survivors by mid gaming and just basically having good game sense, can easily beat a swf. Thats why killers like otzdarva and monto can 4k nearly every game.
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Ok idk about the rest of the ppl on this side but (as a "killer main") I don't see any problems with swf. The game is 4v1 yes if survivors have some sort of communication it's gonna be really hard for killer to win the game but for me that's the most fun as killer. When I'm versing a swf it's fun as long as they aren't toxic shits. If they disable swf then what's the point of playing the game? I use dbd as a late night game that I can enjoy both alone and with friends if swf was disabled I'd probably quit the game. It just wouldn't be fun. The only problem I have with swf is when said swf are bing toxic (t-bagging the pallets, sabo squad etc) other than that I don't see a problem. Most of the time it's just perks carrying them through the game anyway so ¯\(°_o)/¯
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This is the most common mentally. Going against swf is fun and makes the game more tense.
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Wait, how would anything I suggested be unfair?
Like, gen speeds penalty could maybe be dialed down later, but how would fixing killer matchmaking and bringing back anti smurf protections be 'unfair'?
Starting to wonder about you, to be honest...
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Yes. 'Looking into' to the extent that they removed killer matchmaking protections and anti-smurf measures without telling anyone.
Does. Not. Compute.
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The devs are protato, compared to the monsters out there. Js.
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Because there is a segment of this community that apparently think you get magical skills when you play in swf.
Like you know... the ability to loop a killer, the ability to hold M1 when you are in the killer's TR, the ability to understand map set ups, the ability to save teammates off hooks in a safe way, the ability to get out of sticky situations. All those things that normally require thinking.
Post edited by Johnny_XMan on0 -
for the most part it fine but when you in a group you shouldn't be allowed have low rank survivor be leader have your high rank survivor int he group to bully low rank killers,if you in a group and it mix ranks you should face a killer to the highest in the group like if you got rank 2 10 16 5 in the group you should face rank 2 or 1 killer sorry but that all I want when it comes to fixing swf.
what are you talking about removed killer matchmaking protections and anti-smurf measures?
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That's not all that needs fixing with SWF, but it's a decent start.
SWF provides significant advantages to a team with no trade-off. Either killers need to be extensively rebalanced with that in mind (which would be massively unfair to solo players) or another offset is required. I'd personally like to see a Heroes of the Storm type system.
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why are you accusing him of things without evidence,from where i see it this a discussion thread, not a feedback and suggestion one.
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where in the rules does it say you cant play swf?
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Just as survivors would for certain killers or Moris.
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If comms are an expected part of the game, they need to be added as a baseline option for survivors, including text chat/callouts. You can't fight against comms, and you can't remove SWF, because that genie's already out of the bottle. So you need to change your game to support it.
But this is DBD, and expecting things like functioning DC penalties, bots to replace DCers, working sound, a functional tutorial, etc, is all asking way too much, let alone this.
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Just because it wasn't included originally doesn't mean the devs didn't change their mind. It's not as if they "accidentally" added swfs to the game and they clearly fully expected swf members to probably mostly be on comms. Heck, the devs themselves use comms on their streams and comms are built in to the console version of the game as well.
Do comms present a balance challenge? Sure. But that doesn't make them "unintentional", it's not like they said "oops! Looks like swfs are in the game now!"
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If comms are built in in console DBD I'd assume the gap between SWF and Solos is nonexistent, is this the case? I'm really curious why I've not heard anyone mention this before in a discussion about SWF.
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Uhh, pretty sure they're absolutely not built in to the console version of the game.
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P.S. Here's the exact Q&A session where McLean and Stefan talk specifically about whether or not swfs with comms were intended from the beginning. Short answer is yes, they were, but that game mode was put off initially to implement Kill Your Friends first at release. Question is at 9:05 in the video.
Dead by Daylight | Q&A session #5 – October 26th, 2018
9:05
Q: Is using voice communication an intended game mechanic? As in, was it designed and balanced for this game in regards to solo survivors and killers?
Mclean: That reminds me of a neat anecdote. Because I often hear that survive with friends was not intended and was only added in response to player complaints and player demands. And I was there at the time, and also I think I our game director talked about this last time he was on stream. The thing is that the kill your friends mode and survive with friends mode were always intended. It’s just that at the time we only had time to do one of these modes before release, and we chose kill your frends.
I’ve seen that myth out there quite often, so no – from the very beginning we intended to let people play with their friends.
That being said, however, this is a game where we try and have this core atmosphere, this sense of isolation, there’s no spoken dialog in the game, it’s very lonely and quiet, except for the pounding drums when you’re about to die. And that’s all intentional, it really builds up the feeling of the game. But realistically this is a game in 2018 now, we’re not going to tell people you can’t talk to your friends while you play the video game. … We can’t stop people from communicating. (To Stefan) So you’ve often talked about your desire to try and lessen the gap a bit by giving more information that a coordinated group could have to solo players. Now we don’t have a lot of details what that looks like in the future, we’ve talked about lots of crazy ideas.
For instance it used to be that if you weren’t the killer or the obsession that you didn’t know who the obsession was. Now you do and you can get some interesting information like the little entity arms wiggling when the obsession is being chased. That’s information that a survive with friends group could have easily given each other but now solo players are able to see that. I would love to see some more subtle things like that and maybe perhaps some bigger ones in the future. Nothing to announce on that end.
But to bring it back to the comms – was the game balanced for it originally? I don’t know if I would say it was or wasn’t really?
Stefan: I think if you look at how much the game has grown over the last two years and how much we’ve learned about our playerbase and learned about how our game plays and how mechanics play out, I think it’s an adjustment period that we need to do regardless of anything else. Comms we knew were never going to be shut down, we just didn’t want to have it forced on players, that was one of the biggest mantras.
McLean: So if somebody didn’t want to hear voices we didn’t want you to fire up the game and hear someone’s voice in your ear. …
I would say it does affect our game design now where we’re not going to put any designs that hinge on some survivors knowing something while other survivors don’t. And now when we work on other mechanics we always have to ask ourselves “how is this going to work for a solo group versus how’s this going to work for a coordinated group. So that’s always a question we have to ask ourselves now. We do keep this in mind these days. Even if it’s not the “intended way to play”, we just have to acknowledge that that’s how some people do.
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