Why the "looping mindset" that survivor players have is detrimental and is slowly killing this game.
We all know how killer games go. Find your first survivor, he runs in circles for 3 minutes, all the gens get done and they escape with Adrenaline/BT/DS/DH. This has become so bad that there are only 2 killers (Sally and Rin) that can consistently perform well in Red Ranks if they want to double pip and retain their Rank 1. Even worse - Rin was broken last update so unless you were Nurse your pip was a heavily weighted coin toss. Some killers such as Caleb and Triangle Daddy can sometimes beat a strong Red Rank SWF, but can't compete if they use the Genrush Strategy.
This is why I think the game should try and cut down on this stupid running in circles strategy to win every game without thinking. Instead, we should focus on the Stealth aspect of the game. I think most survivors (who aren't pathetic bullies) can agree that the suspense of a killer almost finding you in a hiding spot is far more thrilling than running around a pallet 10 times rinse repeat. The fact that there are 10+ pallets which can each last from 30 seconds to a few minutes (Bloodlust takes way too long to kick in) pushes the "chase killer only" meta that has plagued so many players into only playing Rin Sally and sometimes Caleb.
We want to play Amanda and sneak up on survivors.
We want to play Anna and line up a sweet hatchet on a Zarina who didn't quite hide well enough.
We want to play Lisa and scare survivors with our Phantasms.
But we can't - because the meta right now is looping, and any killer that doesn't excel there isn't viable.
Comments
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And before salty survivor players come in here and try to Hour shame me, I have 2.8k hours with a roughly 50/50 split :DD
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The loops/chases need to be long enough for the survivors to have fun. However loops/chases that long lose the game for killers.
I'd say rather than shortening loops/chases to keep up with the games speed the more fun solution is to keep the long loops/chases but slow the game down enough so that we can have those fun interactions without it costing the killer the entire game.
This is one of the reasons a lot of survivors don't like the indoor maps, it's because they generally don't have these kinds of loops.
I personally think they should reduce some of the amount of loops but add a lot more fog/grass/LOS blockers etc to allow for more skilled jukes/mind games mid chase. To me as a survivor that would be fun. Currently that just isn't happening unless the killer is just really bad.
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I totally agree! Looping is an outdated mindset for those, both killer and survivor, who refuse to adapt. Extraordinarily designed killers such as Rin, Caleb, and even our lovely Lisa can counteract that, but more needs to be done. There needs to be a shift to a more stealthy way of playing DBD; the way the devs originally intended. We need more survivors urbaning, lightweighting, quick and quieting and iron willing!
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Sorry I probably should have elaborated more.
A lot of killers don't enjoy holding W around a pallet, because that's all they can do unless they're a high tier chase killer like Rin Sally and Caleb.
I appreciate the feedback though <3
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While I mostly agree, I think that some of those perks should be looked at if the games hopefully goes in this direction. When stealth is meta, I think survivors will realise how strong perks like Lightweight and especially Red Herring are!
Thanks for the feedback! <3
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I agree that's why the loops without high walls (ones like in Autohaven) need high walls. When they are low like that there is zero mind games involved. It's just mindless circling to get rid of the pallet. This is also why they need to close the holes in the shack, because being able to see the killer during a loop removes the mind game.
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stealth is boring and looping can be fun for both sides since you can make mindgames on both sides
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Stealth is incredibly boring for both sides.
Just because you can't win consistently on a killer doesn't mean the killer can't win consistently. Unless consistently means you want a free win in 100% of games.
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I want to be helpful. No, that is not how it goes, or at least it isn't how it is "supposed" to go. You do not spot your first Survivor and then chase them for 3+ minutes. You evaluate the quarry, the landscape, and you cut that chase off if it goes longer (in my case) usually about (20) seconds. The only time I'm going to chase a Survivor for a LONG time is when I have the luxury, i.e. everyone else is on hooks, slugged, or cowering in some corner and I've already read their mettle.
To put this in context, I play Myers as my Killer. Until I made it to Rank-1 he was my exclusive Killer. That means I start the game slow, and have to speed up. I generally find that 20 seconds is enough to get someone down, if you were ever going to get them down. There are some chases that are doomed from the start. There are some chases I won't even start. Part of learning to be a good Killer is making that evaluation. However, if you don't like Looping (or you aren't very good at it) there are plenty of Killers whose powers and profiles allow you to avoid it. Consider the Stealth Killers (or builds). Consider the Trapper or Hag who herd people into their traps.
And for the record, I performed well consistently in the Red Ranks with MYERS. I didn't make it to Rank-1 on my ego and endless opinions (although they are excessive). I know lots of Players who are hanging out in the Red Ranks and playing a whole range of Killers. Your arguments are based on ill-advised assumptions. Looping is annoying for Killers, particularly when you aren't very good at it. At best, I've made it to "average" when it comes to Looping. For the longest time I was outright BAD. I accept my weakness and just learned to compensate by better evaluation, avoiding tunnel vision on a particular Survivor, and working mind games and short cuts to my advantage.
There are maps that favor Looping Gods. There are also maps that punish people who rely on it. Looping isn't killing the game. The only thing that is hard on the game is the SWF because figuring out how to actually balance it is a nightmare.
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For my taste
- As Survivor: I like that I can sneaky/hiding/evade from Killer nearby. Or able to get into a long chase (I once able to made chase vs Doctor for like 3-4min), even though I died, it was alot of fun.
- As Killer: I can image if all survivor hiding, you just walking around kicking gen, which isnt fun. The fun is to slashing people, killing & hooking.
The goal of fun is opposite for both side. If survivors are hiding, Killer has nothing to slash. If survivors are so great at chase, Killer has nothing to slash. If Killer can easily down survivors to have fun, then how Survivors have fun from that?
How one can balance the fun between those?
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I made a post a while back about this. Looping is such a strange design choice of interacting with the killer. No other asymmetrical game I've played has "run around a small area in a circle, drop a pallet and run" as the only way of interacting with the killer. Closest I can think of is F13 running from cabin to cabin but even so, there was more ways of interacting with Jason.
I don't think looping is a bad design choice when it's mixed with stealth and other aspects but for the most part this game relies on it too much to the point that stealth becomes obsolete. Stealth should be better than it is now and there should be more ways of interacting with the killer. What those ways could be I'm not entirely sure. Maybe another objective that both killer and survivor can interact with? Either way I think looping is getting a bit stale.
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*sad Deathslinger noises*
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^ This. This is one of the problems at the core of this game. Walking around the map looking for survivors is boring as crap. There have been times when at the beginning of the match I've made a full patrol of all five generators twice and still not seen anyone and I have to talk myself out of putting down the controller to go get a snack.
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Very slowly
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This is a GREAT video. I studied it for a long time, and managed to work my way up to "average" and that alone allowed me to achieve my goal.
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If you can only play two killers and win... It’s not because looping is too powerful. I’d get that 2.8k hours up homie.
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I agree as a survivor main. Genrush and running in one place gets boring for the survivors too. I want to actually play and not end the game in 5 minutes by genrushing or looping the killer. It's more fun to try and hide or try and win the chase without those abusive places where you can safely loop for 5 minutes.
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But why though? 90% of what survivor's have to do (gens, totems, healing, stealth, etc.) is incredibly boring to do. Looping is the one of the only fun parts of playing survivor so if you nerf it and encourage stealth its only going to make the game more boring for both sides.
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Looping is fine. If they could add more mindgameable loops (AKA loops that block line of site for both killer and survivor) then I think that would be good.
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This game still exists because of the chases. If stealth was the main strategy to beat the killer I probably would have quit 20 hours in. Most people with more than 500 hours don’t like stealth, and I don’t even enjoy stealth when I’m playing killer.
If I had to choose when I play killer I would much prefer cocky survivors that want to be chased over the group of blendettes in a random bush at the corner of the map. At least I get to play the game against bold survivors.
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The stealth aspect of this game imo is very boring, not only for survivor but for killer. Because the fun part of the game is the interaction. And if youre looping some one for more than a minute thats on you. Playing killer is not all about having to deal with loops, its about pressuring survivors, taking advantage of their weak points, mind games and so much more. Are some loops in the game unhealthy? absolutely and they should be looked at. Should loops be put aside and stealth be the main option for survivors? no
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Every killer is viable at red ranks,
You do not need to play Spirit or Nurse to consistently win games at red ranks, half the people on here rarely play these two killers and do just fine.
If survivors are truly genrushing you're not winning as ANY killer except Nurse with a good build. But you never see these teams, this "genrush strategy" may as well not exist because normal survivors don't play like this.
If you're getting chased for several minutes with any other killer that isn't spirit or nurse you need to brush up on your fundamentals and get better at looping tiles. Or learn when to break off of a chase
If survivors are running in a circle in chases against you and that's literally all they're doing as you claim, that's because you're not making them do anything else and you're also following them like a puppy, holding W and not doing anything else to make them guess where you're coming from at a tile. And most killers these days have ways of dealing with survivors running in a circle around loops like that (unless it's like a cold wind loop or Ormond or something).
I recommend watching people like Otz play killer, or Scott. Watching people is also a good way to improve. As well as looking at their YouTube channels for guides, be it specific killer guides or Scott's "How to run tiles as killer" video.
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Stealth isnt fun at all. I wouldn't play this game if all there was is stealth. I dc if my survivors are hiding. Mindgames on loops is the funnest thing in this game and if you say otherwise you probably just suck as killer.
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Looping was never a design choice. Giving survivors the ability to vault windows faster than the killer and drop pallets that can then be destroyed, where design choices. Looping was simply discovered to be the most efficient way to use thoses gameplay mechanics.
In fact in the early days of the game, nobody knew what they where doing and there where so many windows and pallets everywhere that looping was not really needed. But as soon as players started figuring it out and spreading it, things got really silly.
Ever since, the devs have tried to correct their design to account for looping, by deleting infinites loops setups, giving the killers bloodlust and entity window blockers, reducing the numbers of pallets, etc...
There is just no way to remove looping because it is a consequence of the devs designing a game where survivors use environmental obstacles to delay the killer and the players figuring out how to make the most of that.
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I swear this sounded like Trump making a speech about dbd lol not every single game needs a Nurse or Spirit to win. If we look at the kills at red ranks that the devs released it disproves this immediately. Against the best survivors the Nurse and Spirit are the best, but not your only option.
Now for me I find the chase the most exciting part of the game from both sides. If I want to play a game where I need to hide the whole time it definitely wouldn't be dbd. I love out smarting my opponents on both sides during chases. Nothing is worse as killer than just walking around trying to find survivors, it's dull and boring.
If you love stealth gameplay that much I'd typing in "4 blendettes on Dead Dawg Saloon". Probably the best 30 mins of stealth gameplay you'll find.
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that sounds very, very, very, very boring.
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that how I play too and it can't be balance for fun between those very well.
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You just called Me and a majority of other survivors pathetic. Looping requires the most skill and gives the killers a better chance than stealth. I have gone against stealthy players and it is worse than not being able to land a hit. I like the idea of changing up the gameplay meta, but I disagree that im a bully just because I am better than the killer who chooses to lost the game. And frankly with how you worded it you are directly insulting a big majority of the players and I believe that goes against the rules so you might wanna edit that
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I disagree. Chases are the core of the game, simply because it's in chases that there is interaction between players. As a survivor I prefer stealth over chases, but still a match without at least a good chase is a boring one. Not to talk about the killer pov, spending a lot of time trying to find someone to chase (= to play with) is extremely boring.
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Hiding is boring. I want to run and be chased. As killer, I enjoy outperforming a survivor with mind-games. From killer perspective, I also hate looking for survivors, which is why I play as Legion. I'm not wasting my time looking through every bush on Dead Dawg. Yes, holding 'W' can be "boring", but that's only a problem on a select few maps. Most maps, and generic tiles have opportunities for both sides.
Looping also more than just running around a block of wood, or jumping through a window. It's about pathing, and understanding your opponent. Survivors who can think outside of the box, and chain together tiles, and lose the killer by taking unique pathing (not being predictable) stand out from the rest. Bonus points if you can do it without using a single pallet.
tldr: stealth is boring af
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To be fair. This problem would be easily solved if they changed all Long/Long loops into Long/Short loops, and Short/Short loops. So then some actual strategy, gameplay, and mind games can happen at every loop - instead how it is currently where survivors will mindlessly circle a LLP loop and never get touched.
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I would love holding CTRL non stop around the map hiding as much as possi- zzzzzzzzZZZZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzzzzZZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzZZzzzz
Your argument is poor and illogical. You dont need to play Nurse or Spirit to get consistent 4k, any killer works. You just need to get good as a looper and mindgamer. Learn and adept to survivors behaviour and how they play.
Without looping and aggresive playstyles survivor que would be longer, we would probaly have no more survivor content creators as they would A) leave and encourage their community to do the same or B) Become killer mains. Looping is not a outdated mechanic, its one of the few things that keep this game alive. I live for the thrill of a hunt (no puns intended)
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Speak for yourself, stealth is one of my favorite mechanic in video games.
Just because you don't like something doesn't mean no one else in the community enjoys something
In fact, successfully disengaging or avoiding a chase with a killer in close proximity to you is one of the more heart racing aspects of the game. Watching them search areas nearby you, or opening lockers that you aren't in but are close to is both exciting and worrying.
Conversely, finding and catching out a survivor that tried to outplay you with stealth is such a satisfying moment.
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Also reduce the amount of pallets, make them more of a resource you have to consider not running out of. Players will learn to preserve pallets.
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How do you have 2.8k hrs and think that you need to play a certain killer to win matches at rank 1??? You can be Wraith and get 80%+ killrate at rank 1 if you're decent
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If you want to ignore looping there are plenty of killers in the game that practically already do it. I find them relatively boring to play, because having to go down into the loops is what makes killer fun and rewarding for me; having to work for the downs and outplay people instead of teleporting on top of their heads with nurse/spirit/etc.
I usually hate playing killers with a ranged attack. Getting someone with a knife / chainsaw / baseball bat / etc is what makes DBD so satisfying to me.
The new maps and reworks are more unsafe than ever as it is.
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Most of the time I see loops that are too strong and waste a lot of my time chasing the survivor, and many MANY people have talked about how at high levels you CAN'T CHASE. You have to either end the chase in a few seconds, or chase them off them immediately go rush to another gen, because you have to pressure each generator equally.
Honestly it feels like a fundamental flaw in the game design and it seriously needs some looking into. It wouldn't be so bad if like you could continue speeding up over time in a chase, but loops are the entire reason why only around 3 or 4 killers are able to be competitive in red ranks, those being 2 Killers with a full on map teleport (Hag and Freddy) and 2 killers with a "pseudo" teleport that counters looping (Nurse and Spirit). With the current way the game is played because of the mechanics these 4 are "the best" because their powers are the ones that actually enable them to win chases fast enough that they don't lose the game going after a single survivor.
Another issue is generator regression being so slow that its meaningless unless you have ruin.
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No thanks, I don't play DBD for hide and seek. I play it to have chases. If you want to reinvent the way chases work to shake things up and make things more interesting then that's cool. However I'm very much against turning the game into immersion simulator. I don't think going in that direction would be healthy for the game. I can't speak for others, but me personally, I would probably quit if the game went down the path you suggested. I respect your opinion but I think you're wrong on this one.
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I can't possibly begin to comprehend how boring DBD would be if it was a constant 'hide and seek' rank 20 simulator. I don't want to consistently walk from gen to gen to gen to gen without seeing anyone or spend minutes looking.
Before the hatch rework I had a game that lasted 20+ minutes of me just looking for an urban evasioning Nea. Wasn't. Fun. At. All. I happend to loop around a tree twice and found her... pure luck. She could've been anywhere on the map.
Chases are fun and challenging. Mindlessly looking behind objects for survivors for minutes doesn't offer any challenge at all. What about the survivor gameplay? Hold M1 on a gen, hear the TR and hold C behind a nearby object and die instantly in a chase? What? I don't want forced rank 20 gameplay.
Also, you realize the game would have to have a complete overhaul to be a 'hide and seek' simulator? If you want less looping, there'd have to be considerable changes to become on par to 'Hide Or Die' ... and we all know what happend to that game.
Also also, just to note: Stealth is still part of this game. I'm going to respect good killers and not actively seek a chase with them. I will hide from major threats such as NOED or Devour Hope if I need to. I will try and lose a chase if my survival depends on it. I will be more cautious on death hook. I just don't want stealth to be a 24/7 thing. It's good where it is now imo.
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Every killer is more than viable in red ranks. This is from like a month ago. I assume the higher skillcap killers (nurse, blight, deathslinger, demo, huntress) have lower kill rates because you are given so many opportunities to screw up with their power.
I wonder why pig is so high though, maybe because all the red rank pigs run the RNG mori headtrap addons and it only takes 1 person getting unlucky for them to 3-4k off luck alone.
And I disagree with your logic, there are really 2 ways to play DBD at high ranks. You rock full chase perks and tunnel / camp / slug the heck out of everyone, using the chase perks to power through the loops and BT/DS. Or you do ruin / undying / discordance and play a game of attrition, clearing out safe pallets while regressing gens until they run out of resources and start to go down. (Or you just play braindead spirit / hag and do whatever you want).
But don't complain the "loops are too safe" when there's really no god setups anymore on all but a handful of maps. You should know as a killer not to chase into really nasty setups if your killer doesn't have the power or perks to deal with them.
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You know, after being on these forums for some time now, I can tell you two things from all the posts made here multiple times...
People complain when survivors loop
People complain when survivors stealth
We get told "Looping takes no skill, it's just braindead and exploiting an unintended mechanic"
Then from the other side "Immersive is boring, why are you crouch walking / hiding in a bush, you're not even interacting with the killer, dbd is about the chases"
I'm not saying there aren't points to be made, but it seems to me survivors are caught both coming and going at this point. Some of the ideas here ARE valid, even if i think that both styles of play have merit. But the problem is, even if things were changed up so stealth became more common, I can guarantee survivors would be getting flak for playing "Immersed" and "Boring".
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The last thing we need is this game any hard to see with may ways to for many characters to become 99% invisible directly in front of the killer.
It does amaze me after 4 years there is not another alternate game mode, or more elements to this game. its like the developers came up with 1 idea and just stopped worrying about any other possible ways the game could be played.
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I don't think I've ever had a killer game where most survivors were stealthy that I thought of as a good match.
Some aspects of looping are unfun. i.e. survivor runs around a piece of debris 3-5 times, dead hards, circles another time, throws pallet: dull as shìt.
Jungle gyms and the shack are both really fun to run on both sides imo, possibly my favourite part.
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So you want to encourage LESS interaction between the survivor and killer...?
Survivors already have it boring enough- most of their gameplay is just mindlessly holding m1. Gens, healing, chests, totems, etc.
Stealthy survivors are so boring it's painful. I would rather get ran around the map for 5 minutes than spend 5 minutes trying to find someone hiding in a corner. At least during a chase a survivor has to use their brain, even around little ######### loops.
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Why do people constantly assume looping involves just this? That's only the case for safe long survivor loops, how can you apply that theory to a loop like shack or a jungle gym or a t and l wall or an unsafe pallet where the survivor needs to watch for which way the killer goes and pay attention? Plus look at how many killers have anti-loops these days. I would have agreed with this statement 2-3 years ago but not now.
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There are enough killer perks to counteract stealth in the game that stealth is completely meaningless and obsolete. Looping is the only viable way to play because the devs made finding people so easy.
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Trying to "eliminate" looping is quite simply the wrong way to go about it. Not only is there no chance the devs would ever do it when it's firmly established as a sort of emergent gameplay thing, it's also better to have several options.
A much more realistic option is to cut down on the truly brainless no LOS blocker "hold W until the pallet drops" loops. Think the low autohaven scrap loops, the ones I still associate with the "pallet sea" in the middle of Blood Lodge. Those are completely different to actual proper tiles where there's gameplay going on that requires more attention from both players. So I don't mean turning every pallet into "stun the killer or you get hit" ones either. Those have a place, "proper" tiles do as well, and even a limited supply of "god pallets" do too. Anything is better than low-wall loops in most cases.
And it's not a good start to a thread to essentially use words like "bully" and "pathetic" for people that basically just disagree with you, lol.
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It’s part of how the game is played. If you change it, you completely change the game.
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Blame the devs
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