Please help me understand how gen rushing is different than tunneling.

there is no difference. both is most effective, both is no fun for the other side, both get yelled out waaaay to early without it even being tunneling/gen rushing

To elaborate on Frosty a little bit too, it takes a really coordinated SWF to do a genrush the killer can genuinely do nothing about. Your average SWF- and especially your average game against solos- generally don't have the coordination needed to pull off that extreme level of genrush, and will do other objectives, so it just comes down to needing to understand how to make chases shorter as killer, and when to leave chases.

On the flipside, in my experience as killer, there's very few times where tunneling isn't deliberate. Sure, sometimes you'll come back to the hook and run into the guy that just got off with the unhooker nowhere to be seen, or a teammate will farm- but at least in my experience, most of the time someone gets tunneled because the killer made the conscious decision that the person they decided to tunnel isn't allowed to play anymore, and gets to leave with 6k points to go back to queue.

(I also just want to point out the fact that while losing early gens can be daunting for killer, making it seem like the gens were rushed early, most killers definitely get stronger as more gens are done because there's less places for the Survivors to do objectives, forcing them closer together for easy pressure.)

You can still apply really good pressure with Billy, just not as good as before, and I know this because he's my other main, right next to deathslinger, huntress, oni, and blight. You can still apply pressure with Nurse, just not as much as before, I also know this because I play her a decent amount although the bugs (which aren't as common as you think) do make her frustrating to play as. Rundying + Tinkerer will still be a good combo, even with undyings nerf. Also not sure what your trying to get at with Spirit and Freddy...Spirit hasn't been nerfed super hard yet and neither has Freddy so...you can still apply a ton of pressure with them.

So by gen rushing I assume you mean all survivors carrying toolboxes with BNPs and such and finishing gens in seconds? Or some such variant.

To me I don’t think there is truly a difference between gen rushing and tunneling. I think gen rushing is harder to accomplish because it takes 4 accomplices but if it happens you could also say that is more egregious than tunneling. So I do think they’re equally as bad.

Also just to be clear, by tunneling I mean the killer ignoring all objectives and other survivors, focusing only on one survivor to get them out of the game. I don’t really consider unsafe unhooks into a tunnel tunneling. Even though I think the killer could show some grace in those situations by chasing the teammate who unhooked, I don’t think the killer is obligated to do so.

I also don’t consider tunneling a toxic survivor tunneling. I guess strictly speaking you are tunneling someone, but the point of discouraging tunneling is to ensure everyone has fun. I think someone who is being purposely toxic can safely be exempt from that.

I think gen rushing is hard to define. How fast or slow should gen speeds go? My experience so far playing mostly solo survivor and some killer is that default gen speeds are fine. Toolboxes mostly seem fine except for maybe the commodius toolbox and any better toolboxes than that. That thing can churn out gen progression fast!

Also I’ve been running Prove Thyself, and this isn’t really a meta perk but it is so strong that my escape rate after running it in soloq went from like 20-25% to 60-75% for awhile, and then stabilised around 50-60% escape rate, which is much higher than before I ran it. So just one guy in soloq running Prove Thyself can affect the game so much. I think there are other variable at play (I suspect killers go easier when they see a full team of solos and don’t expect gens to pop so fast) but I still think it says something about how gen speeds can be abused by survivors if they wanted to. I definitely think survivors have the power to bully the killer if they wanted to but mostly don’t because it takes a coordinated effort, you might have to run team based perks and sacrifice chase and second chance perks or just don’t think it’s fun to sit on gens. (Oh and of course some players are just decent folk and don’t want to ruin other people’s fun, but we’re not here to talk about that. We’re here to talk about how potentially certain things in the game can be abused.)

So tl;dr, I don’t think gen rushing is different from tunneling. Default gen speeds are fine imo but gen speeds can be abused through multiple survivors carrying toolboxes, toolbox add ons and even Prove Thyself seems kinda powerful. And everyone who does the above to give someone else a bad time gets a stern look and finger wag from me. Tsk tsk.

I've played both against a good team, and I've also won with both of them. With Huntress I came across an experienced team while using corrupt + pop and even though the match was tough i managed to get some really good shots in on them and even managed to snipe twice that match (Map was also coal tower, maybe that helped me a bit since its smaller). With Trapper I came across another good SWF team but this time I was on Dead Dawg with Rundying + Corrupt + STBFL and I'll admit, the only reason why I won that match was because towards the end when there was only 1 gen left one of them messed up and tried to get an unhook in my face which failed which gave me the snowball I needed to win.

No? Not all survivors want good killers nerfed. Look at Blight, every single survivor I've seen has stated that he's a very fun balanced killer to play against. Freddy has way to much in his base kit, he has teleportation, good anti loop, natural slowdown (dream world) and anti BT. I dont want him to get a flat out nerf but its clear that if you aren't a killer main that he needs changes. Rundying, especially on good killers like Blight and Nurse can make it so that solo survivors get destroyed easily. Pop is still really good, not sure why people treat it like garbage, I still find tons of value with it and also still have plenty of time to kick a gen with it. Also on the topic of the nurse change, unless your an entitled killer main it was painfully obvious she needed a nerfz omega blink and 5 blink nurse completely broke the game.

And yet a lot off Freddy problems can be solved by waking up which a lot off survivors don't do i had a match the other day and before i got the person off the hook i woke up so i made sure BT was active when going for the save, Even when you heal people instead of staying there for a few more seconds to let the other person wake you up they run off staying in the dream world take those few seconds and wake up and most off Freddy powers are useless if your awake. You mean like the DS+UB combo on good survivors it can be a real pain to deal with just like ruindying with a good team it might not last long at all other times it will last the whole match.

The problem with pop is the reason they changed it and left DS they way it is "60 seconds allow killers to do a lot off things and still have it active" but DS still stands at 60 seconds and survivors can do a lot in that time, i was using examples from someone that left a msg before me but if you take away killers and just look at perks that have got changed that helped apply pressure there was ruin, PgtW and now ruin+undying combo each one off them has had a change to make it more easy on survivors.

Look at the ruin nerf and the reason behind it if i remember it was because new survivors found it to hard and the amount off skill checks was random, so instead of new survivors getting better they changed it but killers are the ones that are meant to get better and learn how to apply more pressure?

The thing about Freddy is that the counterplay is thoroughly giving a disadvantage without any real balance.

Waking up (if freddy has no addons) keeps you stationary and/or gives away your position.

As for the topic:

The slight difference is that as scummy as tunneling is, it does have counters and leaves a bit of control in the survivors' hands. Genrushing doesn't. If one or two gens pop before the killer is anywhere near the survivors that game's pretty much done for most.

It could of just be how I worded it, based on my own experiences in the role of both Killer and Survivor- I've faced a lot of Killers that will tunnel a Survivor out of the game purely because they do something they don't like (Like playing stealthy, playing Claudette, having spawned on Ruin/Devour, etc.).

I also usually don't count someone as having tunneled if they get a hook imbetween the person getting downed and such- because at that point it's a matter of both luck and your teammates being willing to pull aggro- so I guess that's why I tend to see real tunneling as much more of an 'anti-survivor' deal. In my experience as Killer, if I tunnel it's because I don't want to deal with that Survivor anymore or because their teammates screwed them. (AKA: Unhooking in my face, disappearing after the unhook, not pulling aggro, etc.)

I should also note that I don't really count what you're describing in your reply as tunneling. To me, that's just playing the game. As Killer, getting through weaker chases is how you win. If the person just gets unlucky and you keep running into them and downing them when you give them good time to recover is a lot different then dropping everything you're doing to return to hook and focusing on nothing but the person you just unhooked. (At least, that's kinda how I interpreted it.)

DBD is asymmetric for a reason. There really is no survivor analogue to camping.

Genrushing is literally just doing objectives. Genrushing is the equivalent of killers getting survivors down often. Camping would be like running the old Haddonfield infinite, although that's a poor analogy.

With that logic tunneling doesn't excist either outside of an Marth skilled nurse.

If you play the best survivor perks and you and your team play well you also can't be tunneled and say Damn i was powerless to stop it

So still no difference

So the killer catches you and it´s game over? You must be one of those survivors that instantly suicide on the first hook.

Even when the others did 3 gens before you were found.

What do you mean by "genrushing"? Because if you mean all survs carrying BNP in strong toolboxes and built to last and all that bullshit, sure. But survivors being efficient is not genrushing. Take, for example, you're chasing one guy and the other three are on gens. Suppose three gens pop right after you hook him. Is that genrushing? If the chase took the 80 seconds that those gens take to complete, then it's not. You just weren't putting pressure on those survivors. Don't get me wrong, it can be very difficult to put pressure on many survs at the same time, specially with some of the weaker killers. But that's a matter of killers being weak, not of survivors genrushing.

My point here is: if, as a survivor, you have an entire build based on genrushing + toolbox with BNP + don't heal your hooked teammates, barely take the time to unhook them and then return to gens, then yes, I believe that is called genrushing and it is equal to tunneling. Going out of your way to get the advantage as quickly as possible, either by erasing one dude from the game, or by getting gens done so fast that the killer has barely the time to maybe hook one guy or two. On purpose.

However, let's imagine a different case. Imagine the 4 survs are running DS + UB + DH + BT (to mention a pretty standard build that we actually see often). No intention of slamming gens as fast as the previous group I mentioned. Some medkits, a flashlight, maybe one toolbox. You are chasing one dude. What are the rest supposed to do? Wander around the map looking at textures? Absolutely not. They will be on gens. And this is not equal to tunneling, in my opinion. It's survivors doing the one thing they have to do. Equal to this would be the killer getting downs and hooks quickly. Not specifically tunneling one guy out of the match. Just doing the objective efficiently, without going out of your way to take advantage of the strategy that will get the match finished the fastest way possible.

This is what I believe at least.

This is an interesting debate. I want to say it's different, but, the more I think about it, the harder it is to come up with a reason why.

The only difference is DS.