[LOCK THE THREAD PLEASE] The DS paradox explained to everyone.

As someone who plays both sides I think making an Obsession form every match wouldn't be that big of a deal. I'm shocked it isn't a basekit thing tbh

I always hear killers say they don't like it because it 1. gives survivors more info (When Obsession is being chased) and more importantly, 2. discourages tunneling because of possible DS but I don't see a problem with the latter.

If I'm playing survivor and I see Obsession formed I worry about things like STBFL / Dark Devotion but nobody ever talks about that, so I feel the Obsession thing can go both ways for the most part and it's reasonably fair.

As for DS the only thing I can think of to maybe buff it is to make the timer pause when the killer is chasing you similar to active reverse bear traps. As it stands, a killer can tunnel you off hook and wait out DS and still tunnel you so what's the point? This would at least alleviate that problem somewhat but killers can still slug you to make DS wasted.

In that case obviously DS Unbreakable will help you get up but then it's like we're back to Square 1 running DS Unbreakable to counter being tunneled and or slugged.

I feel like there's always going to be problems with all of this lol

You do remember that Tony was proven wrong in that very same film, right? And "kids nowadays" is such a tired trope, let it die already. It's been 5000 years since the beginning of recorded history and "kids nowadays" are still being blamed for all the evils in the world.

tunneling isn't an issue with game mechanics, it's very much intended

I agree with many that there should just be an obsession every match. It's stupid that there isn't. Or make like waaaaaay more perks obsession perks.

I avoid tunneling as killer, but when there's no obsession, knowing that I strategically probably should tunnel annoys me, because it's an unfun thing to play against. People with less qualms about tunneling are probably discouraged from using STBFL or one of Mike's obsession related addons, because they'll get more information from the survivors about if they're probably going to have DS or not. Which is dumb. As survivor I essentially never ran DS, but usually some rando would bring it in, and sometimes tunneling would happen anyway... But ohboy it was VERY frequently a tunnelfest when they did not.

DS now IS a wasted perk in if multiple members of the team bring it. If you're in a swf and one dude brings it? Great. Optimal. If you're solo queueing? Seems like every time either no one will have it and your odds of getting tunneled to death skyrocket, or all 4 of you will have it and your team is essentially down 3 perks. Solo is rough enough without DS roulette.

Not to mention it's good/healthy for gameplay to encourage a diversity of perks. But if people need to worry about ensuring an obsession every round, they have an extremely limited pool of obsession perks that don't just completely suck nuts, thus limiting that perk diversity.

The usefulness of DS has been reduced, and that's fine. However it's effectiveness at dealing with tunneling is still almost non-existent. The only kind of tunneling it can provide some relief is a very specific kind, specifically you have to go down and be picked up within 60 seconds and it's only good one time. So it doesn't matter if your tunnel exceeds 60 seconds, the killer slugs you, or on your second tunnel, the perk provides absolutely nothing under these common circumstances. The real issue with DS and why I think most people would try to get a redemption out of it, is because killers would often actually tunnel you but then go out of their way to circumvent getting struck. So it makes sense that survivors would go out of their way to get some utility out of the one-time use perk, when the very thing it is supposed to provide relief for was easily circumvented.

This has always been my problem with DS. Even before the change, I never used this perk because I never actually got to use it. It seemed worthless to me, because as long as there was an obsession, the killer would slug me anyway. And there always was an obsession because so many people (ab)used DS. Now that it's been nerfed and almost nobody brings the perk anymore, no obsession matches are much more common and killers start tunnelling because nothing's stopping them.

So I agree with OP, I'd much rather bring any other obsession perk and actually get to use it than bring a dead perk just for the sake of having an obsession in the match. I've been having fun with For The People and killers didn't tunnel because of the obsession.

So if we have an obsession every match, how long until killers realize that the obsession is no longer a sign of ds? A week? Two? Then what happens after that? We end up exactly where we are now, except now survivors have extra information on who is being chased, with no other advantage to either side. If you want to talk about a band-aid instead of a real solution, putting an obsession in every match is it. Not even a good band-aid either.

It's too late to revert the change. I played with a friend who brought DS after we got tunneled game after game and let me tell you what happened. The next game against a Nurse my friend got immediately tunneled off hook. She hit her through BT, downed her eventually, picked her up, ate the DS and still downed her a few seconds later again so she went back on hook. Ofc same happened after the next unhook.

Killer realized that a 5 seconds stun is nothing so even if there is DS they tunnel now.

You need to get out more. This is one of the dumbest replies I've read in a long time. The only thing silly is the fact that you replied. Don't quote me with nonsense.

My example was to illustrate that you can still be actively tunneled beyond 60 seconds. So for people to act like DS is this compelling anti-tunnel perk is laughable. I've had killers instantly return back to the hook and my chase ended outside of 60 seconds. This doesn't signify that I wasn't being tunneled. For the purposes of DS, tunneling is a very specific and limited one-time experience. That's just a fact, there's no disputing that.

I never said DS has to be indefinite or that it has to be completely foolproof. However just because a perk is declared to remedy a situation and has limits, it doesn't mean that it's effective at relieving that situation or that the limits are reasonable.

I also never said anything about that, I was very specific that tunneling isn't defined by 60 seconds. I don't see you arguing otherwise. Are you saying that getting tunneled for more than 60 seconds is now something else?

All of your examples can be applied to every single perk, a lot of perks with limitations but sometimes those limitations make sense. The game has evolved over the years because sometimes the limits are too great or insufficient. Are we precluded from discussing that same idea for DS just because some people think it's in a great place?

You're confused, and haven't addressed anything I said so I'm not even sure why you're still responding. Tunneling can exceed 60 seconds, I don't see any comment that refutes that.

What does bloodlust have to do with the DS?