LGBTQ survivor/killer when?
Comments
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-bhvr have confirmed that they want to add lgbtq+ characters into dbd
-there are many examples of heterosexual relationships already in the game and have been since the very first chapter
-there's 0 examples of lgbtq+ relationships or characters in dbd
-bhvr have explicitly stated they were excluding lgbtq+ characters previously and wish to change that
That's the reason. It may not matter to you but representation actually saves peoples lives.
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This should actually be the end of all discussion for LGBTQ+ inclusion in DbDā¦
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People's lives aren't politics. Sexual orientation is biological, so is skin colour. It's not political it's human lives.
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Never seen that, good to see it though.
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Good news
First we get may be in the form of skins but something is better than nothing.
So now absolutely nobody can complain that they'd be the "token gay character".
Stan CryptTV
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Great to see, thanks š
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Oh, like the person who called me a homophobe for having my own opinion which insulted nobody. Alright.
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You insulted people by saying their very existence is a political agenda.
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Okay so in regards to your fears on token representation see my reply here
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I have zero knowledge on CryptTV so, I'll take your word for it.
I was also more referring to original Survivors less so than Killers.
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I mean no offence but as a straight, white male you've been represented almost all, if not all, of your life, so it'll be difficult to get why representation is important. Just know that it's not a political agenda, it's a biological fact of people's lives.
And, honestly, I mean this in the nicest possible way but your opinion doesn't hold much sway in this discussion for the facts mentioned above. Because you've been represented your entire life.
Edit: THIS SOUNDS SUPER SHADY I'M SORRY!! I'm really bad at wording things.
Basically what I'm trying to say is if you don't have experience with something your opinion should be held with less importance than those with the experience. PLEASE DON'T TAKE THIS THE WRONG WAY š
Post edited by GoodBoyKaru on10 -
Well, now that pre-established lgbtq+ characters will exist they probably won't be there to be a token but just, something like, instead of "He can't go to his ex, she doesn't want to see his face again" to "He can't go to his ex, he doesn't want to see hsi face again".
Bam, representation, it's a subtle detail, everyone is happy. Except the homophobes.
Look at how Apex does it. Their newest character, it's a throwaway line ("She has her women") & that's it. That's all people ask for- equal treatment to what heterosexual relationships have been like.
Cause despite being a skin they're technically legendary cosmetics so a completely different character
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I don't know if saying people's opinions don't matter based off of their sexuality and skin color is a great idea. I see what you meant, but that doesn't sound right to me.
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Actually no. If you take your emotion out of the discussion you'll see that my opinion is that a character should not be defined by their sexuality, race, religion, politics, etc. The term "identity politics" exists. I didn't invent it. It defines the pushing of one's own self as something that should take special precedent, something that should be included not as an organic addition but as a way of singling it out.
I called no one anything. I never once said that I was against gays or anyone else being in this game. I said that I don't support the modern trend of forcing such things just so that everyone can feel "included". How identical to oneself does a character have to be to feel included? I even provided examples. I can play as women. Black characters. If some of the characters in this game are gay or trans, I couldn't care less. I met a trans member of this forum and we played plenty of games together. I even complimented him on his ability to appear female. I have two gay cousins. But yes, because I don't like the practice of demanding "equal treatment" (when in fact this would imply that any straight people are demanding inclusion when in fact I doubt most straight players of the game care one way or another), I am essentially called a bigot for having the audacity not to agree.
I don't care what I said. I never once personally attacked ANY of you. The fact that one of you would call me homophobic is a disgusting, knee-jerk reaction that shows that you don't understand nor care to understand my argument, you just want what you want and assume that anyone who finds this to be obnoxious is, again, a selfish bigot.
You should be ashamed of yourselves. I was voting for gay rights before most of you were likely even alive. But hey, I'm the bad guy because I don't like people trying to force their will on others and claiming victimization, oppression, and hate on the side of the enemy for not agreeing. So be it.
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And I think that's how it should be. I don't think many people will have an issue with that.
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I couldn't think of a way to word it better, unfortunately.
Basically if you've been represented almost all your life you don't get a say on why we should or shouldn't have representation, especially if you have it by default.
That's what I'm trying to get at if that makes sense??
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And that's all we ask for yet people will still take so much issue with the mere concept of lgbtq+ representation
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I know what you are getting at, but something rubs me the wrong way about that.
Isn't excluding people based off of things they can't control how we ended up in this situation to begin with?
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It's- not really the same.
It's like excluding white people from having an opinion on black struggles.
It's like excluding men from having opinions on what you can/can't do with your body if you're a woman.
It's like excluding, forgive the extreme example, someone who's never been sexually assaulted from the discussion of #########.
Your opinions can still be valid but honestly they don't hold as much sway as the people who actually experience things.
Black people have a much bigger voice on black struggles because they go through them. Women have a much bigger voice on women's struggles because they go through them, etc.
If you've been represented by default your entire life, you don't really get an opinion on why it's important. You can still talk about it, but your opinion should be held with a lot less importance than, say, trans women on the topic of representing trans women.
Which isn't the same as just point blank excluding lgbtq+ people from the game, which is what bhvr admitted to doing.
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Yes, As a straight while male I have been represented and "included" in most walks of life. You're not incorrect about this. Implying that this is somehow a wrong that I should be held responsible for, as some of the rhetoric in this thread has done, isn't quite fair. I also find it unfair to say that as a white male I am only equipped - so limited in my ability for objectivity - that I am unequipped to advocate for someone who isn't.
Let me be perfectly clear here: I have nothing, NOTHING against gays, trans, or anyone else who is not straight. If any of you actually knew me you wouldn't be saying half the things that you are. It's not your obligation to understand, nor my obligation to explain. But the fact is that I don't care if the game has gays, Muslims, Democrats, Republicans, Christians, Atheists, etc etc etc etc etc etc.
The only person I've seen here who seems to have an objective and neutral understanding of this discussion is Pulsar. My argument can be summarized in one sentence, which he did very eloquently (and I paraphrase) : I have nothing against certain types of characters being in this game. I just don't want them there to check boxes.
As for the comment that I am homophobic, based on nothing about me other than the argument that I don't agree with using aggression and insults to shame someone into "diversity" and "inclusion" (a comment which I see has been deleted, by the way), that was absolutely uncalled for. Tell me: Did I use the "f" word to describe any of you, simply because I didn't like the points I thought YOU were making?
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I suppose that makes sense.
So it would be like someone without a medical background talking about performing surgery versus someone with a medical background talking about performing surgery?
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The fact that you are accusing me for something āone of usā did just tells me a lot about yourself. I am an individual person.
and you may have not insulted someone directly but you insulted people nonetheless.
even though the term āidentity politicsā exists you were the one labeling it that in this case. We already know how the devs see it and the majority of people (including me) just want equal treatment or not explicit exclusion just for exclusions sake. No one should have a problem with that, but somehow, you found a way to label it something you think is bad. There was no pushing here, the devs decided on their own. You were trying to push against inclusion though. But it seems like that is okay in your mind..
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CotƩ himself stated that every fanfic out there is canon due to multiverse theory being a thing in the Entity's realm. For all we know this could mean there are gay and straight versions of all the killers and survivors out there. This also explains why we can even have duplicate survivors in the various trials.
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"Yes, As a straight while male I have been represented and "included" in most walks of life. You're not incorrect about this. Implying that this is somehow a wrong that I should be held responsible for, as some of the rhetoric in this thread has done, isn't quite fair."
I wasn't trying to blame you for it! Oh my God, I'm so sorry if it came across like that, it really wasn't my intention! I'm really, really not good with words, and again I'm really sorry!
It's not that it's wrong and you should be responsible for it, it's moreso that if you don't go through a struggle your opinion on something should be taken with less value, if that makes sense?? I'm not trying to say "Meh, you didn't go through this so I'm morally superior" or anything like that, I don't wanna make an Oppression Olympics.
"But the fact is that I don't care if the game has gays, Muslims, Democrats, Republicans, Christians, Atheists, etc etc etc etc etc etc."
If you don't care, great. Let the people who do, for either side, have the discussions because if you truly don't care you'll just vibe on the sidelines (until you do, which from your next point is if they're just used to tick boxes).
"The only person I've seen here who seems to have an objective and neutral understanding of this discussion is Pulsar. My argument can be summarized in one sentence, which he did very eloquently (and I paraphrase) : I have nothing against certain types of characters being in this game. I just don't want them there to check boxes."
But we've seen how BHVR have handled straight relationships in the lore- for the most part subtly. Felix gets one line. David gets one word. Nurse has a couple of entries but it's still on her and her descent into madness. We don't talk about the Frank and Julie tome, like, ever.
+ with the CryptTV skins they've just ticked the boxes. Technically. So they wouldn't have to do anything else, I just hope they will. And that they'll do it right, which I think we're agreeing upon wanting it done right yet arguing with each other on it??
"As for the comment that I am homophobic, based on nothing about me other than the argument that I don't agree with using aggression and insults to shame someone into "diversity" and "inclusion" (a comment which I see has been deleted, by the way), that was absolutely uncalled for. Tell me: Did I use the "f" word to describe any of you, simply because I didn't like the points I thought YOU were making?"
I have a feeling this comment is more directed at the thread than at me so I'll leave this as my only answer to it
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Yeah, basically that! If you don't have experience in whatever it is, your opinion should be held with less importance. Like a trained doctor vs an untrained anti-vaxxer on the subject of vaccinations
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There's a world of difference between directly insulting someone and being unable to control whether someone feels insulted by another person's philosophy.
Though I don't expect to get any sort of apology for being called a homophobe, I will apologize if you felt offended by my argument. That was not my intent.
To again be clear, without aggression or sarcasm, here is where I stand: This game can include anybody. I don't care. It doesn't bother me BECAUSE I don't care. I don't choose Meg because she in any way reminds me of myself, or play as a male because I feel like that's the only way I can feel "represented". I don't CARE. I don't think of a person's color, sexuality, gender, appearance, or political alignment when choosing a character because it's a video game and, as I said earlier, I play video games to get AWAY from that kind of crap in real life. Now, before you get upset, am I saying that inclusion and representation is crap? No. I'm saying that divisive subjects that, as they did tonight, usually boil down to one side insulting the other one due to an emotional disagreement is the kind of stress that I don't need in my life any more than I'm already forced to deal with it. I deal with it work, I deal with it when I watch the news, when I come home to play a video game I'm happy to know that such concerns don't matter.
SO, when I see someone raising a discussion out of it, and resorting rather quickly to the defensive stance that "if you don't like it you're intolerant", I see a logical fallacy that, again, I'm already sick of dealing with everywhere else I go. If I walk down the street and see a gay pride parade, I'll clap and wave and carry on. If I read in the news that because of some city ordinance the gay pride was going to be canceled until its organizers called the city "intolerant homophobic bigots", I'm going to roll my eyes.
I'm all for inclusion. What I don't like is when calls for inclusion start segueing into de facto threats of joining the righteous lest they be condemned as hateful, which is exactly what happened to me.
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Well, Nurse's husband is dead. I think it's just meant to convey the theme.
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Did they say that were excluded out of the intentional desire to do so because they didn't like the idea, or did they say that they were excluded because it just wasn't something that they happened to think about? There's a big difference.
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I can only get disappointed when I see people saying they don't want something because "it doesn't matter for the gameplay". So you guys never read lore at all and think the game should only be about what we see during the matches? That feels sad. The lore is and will always be an important part of games.
The lore has gotten deeper on exploring the character's personalities and making them more human and relatable since the archives were implemented. Not everything in the lore is about the trials on the Entity's realm. Actually, that's just one small part of the lore that explains the scenario where the gameplay takes place. Come on, Claudette's memories in Tome I were about her intelligence and learning as a kid. I personally don't find it very appealing when compared to many other memories we've seen in the Tomes (specially the killers' memories. Of course I still prefer stories with horror), but it did a great job on making Claudette a more human, relatable character.
Sexuality is part of who a character is, so I don't see why LGBT characters and homosexual relationships shouldn't be added, it can only make the lore better and the characters more relatable. Sure, DBD was already much better than many games at representation for having from the start, for a long time, only characters whose sexuality wasn't shown, so was ambiguous, and that's already much better than having only straight characters. But now we see some heterosexual relationships and love interests: the Nurse was married to a man and Julie from the Legion might (not confirmed, but can be interpreted as such) have shown some romantic interest on Frank.
And for people comparing the presence of LGBT characters to "political agendas", come on, that comparison is ridiculous and shows some prejudice from your part.
On the other hand, if you don't want any kind of political themes in the game at all, maybe you're not paying atention to the lore. Because we already have politics in the lore, and a lot. Characters memories in the archives are mostly about their lives and everyday struggles, and the themes are mostly political.
David is unemployed and needs money, to the point he starts working for criminals.
Dwight's memories shows the struggles of workers who have to deal with an abusive, narcisistic boss.
Zarina's backstory is about accepting her cultural identities and working for a cause. She even has a perk called FOR THE PEOPLE, come on.
Nea was an activist.
Jane was a latin american actress upset about only being cast for stereotyped roles.
The Wraith's memories in Tome IV are about genocide.
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no
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Uh, word for word it's this:
Which can obviously be taken whatever way you want. I like to take it as a "We forgot about you guys, our bad, we've changed our plans you're gonna be included as well". Other people could see it as more malicious, of course.
Like I said, I'm really bad with words so my point probably didn't come across as I wanted it to
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Why not?
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Now that is another can of worms. Funnily enough, just the other day one of my black friends who I went to school with (his name is Hunter and he is studying medicine). He sat me down and told me all about the Tuskegee Study and used it as a reason why he'll wait to get a vaccine. I encourage people to check it out, it's honestly sickening what they did to them.
I have complicated feelings about LGBTQ and the community, but I doubt anyone would ever want to hear about it, so I try to be neutral and supportive.
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Honestly being neutral and supportive is all most of us (and by most of us I mean the good people because let's face it every community ever in the history of existence has had some bad people in it) really could ask for.
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Being gay is gross? Or trans?
Like, @miketheratguy was called homophobic earlier but I think this is an actual homophobic statement unless I'm reading it wrong.
In which case, if it is homophobic/transphobic, uh... Don't, I guess?
Post edited by Rizzo on2 -
I just treat everyone as human beings.
Religiously, I'm told to love everyone, so I try my best to do so.
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Let's just start over. I don't know you, you don't know me, there's no reason for us to be at each other's throats about it. There have obviously been misunderstandings and I would like to dial it back. I have nothing personal against you.
I came in with an opinion already quite well-formed from other walks of life, NOT this forum, and in doing so I likely came across as more combative than I intended to. I stand by my philosophy, but it appears as if this wasn't the proper time and venue in which to express it the way that I did.
I became more irritated as multiple arguments against me basically skipped past what I was trying to say and instead focused on the mere fact that I was in any way disagreeing, and yes, I was (and still am) absolutely incensed that I was called a homophobe. I take GREAT offense to that for a number of reasons, not the least of which is that I didn't intentionally insult anybody for having the views that they did. I never called anyone a lesser person, a hateful person, a "wrong" person, for having beliefs that differed than mine. And the funny thing is that our beliefs don't even differ. The only thing that differs is the way in which they're argued. Some see it as a kind request, others see it as an entitled demand. My point is that I see the latter far, FAR too often. And not just about sexuality, about EVERYTHING. I've been on this Earth for 43 years and this is the most miserably tribal political landscape I've ever had the displeasure of experiencing. Everyone has to argue. Everyone has to hate. Everyone else is the enemy.
I'm not saying that this describes you specifically. I didn't mean for it to be taken that way.
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I agree, we should start over. Hey, I'm GoodBoyKaru (or Karu_TC if it's easier)! Nice to meet you Mike- I can call you Mike, right?
I think we're arguing for the same thing done in the same way, so allow me to gain your trust with a picture of a small koala
Edit: yeah I hope I didn't come across as too confrontational when I started, idk if you could tell but it's kinda an important topic to me lol
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Thatās a fair enough standpoint for sure. If you donāt care you donāt care. But others do care. Others may need representation to get away from oppression/discrimination/hate/violence because of their identity or sexual orientation in real life. It wouldnāt hurt you but representation helps to normalize these topics and help letting feel people included when they struggle with this in other areas.
and you have to agree people can take offense when you are using terms like ācrapā āfeeling sick dealing with itā etc. when talking about it. And it certainly doesnāt feel like you donāt care when using such a language.
and just for the record, I donāt apologize because I never accused you of being homophobic to begin with. I explicitly stated that before actually. And I didnāt feel attacked or insulted personally as well, I just pointed out that others may feel insulted by it. Overall it seems you were trying to accuse me of being too emotional about this topic when it felt like you were way more emotional.
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That's all anyone can really ask for, so thank you :)
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:)
I do apologize if I came off as offensive or upsetting at any point.
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I mean-
Yeah. Basically this. Everything this.
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I take it as "we don't want to take any sides on this particular issue and will leave it up to the players to come to their own conclusions".
Others might agree but I think that that's a perfectly fine way of approaching it. Again, I play Meg all the time. If they add lore that defines her as a post-op transsexual female, that won't make me any less likely to use her. My own philosophy is that it doesn't matter because the character's identity (or, if you would rather, specific details of her personal life) has no effect on my ability to enjoy the game as it currently exists.
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I'm agnostic and I feel the same. This is as it should be.
Love who you love. Be who you are. But accept that everyone's different and that's okay.
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I have not read these giant walls of text debates. But here's my 2 cents.
- I'm a homo, that is specifically, Asexual Gay Man.
- Person of Ethnic Decent
I never feel this burning desire to be represented in media I consume, be it literature, gaming or visual media *Anime, TV, Movies
All I ask is that if we get a Queer character, let it not be a token. The backstory should not be revolved around their sexuality, it should just be a nice detail weaved into their life, not the defining characteristic of their personality.
A character like that, would make me happy. Thats what would represent me, a person that has many interests and hobbies that also happens to be gay. Its not hard, its not something that needs a big debate and its not something that will end the DBD world.
š¤·āāļø Me being a gay and ethnic minority does not give me more of say/mean I am more right or wrong btw.
A straight white opinion has as much value as mine does if you ask me.
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I don't want to add anything, maybe i agree with you, maybe not but you getting called a homophobe was a pretty ######### move
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Oh jeez, can we not start this again pleased? This is about as original as the "Spirit nerf" threads. Every character is A sexual and not a single one has any interest in any of the others. There you go now everyone is represented.
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I see that last bit as being indirected towards me š
My point there was that if you don't have the experience your opinion shouldn't be held as highly than people who do have the experience, be it on representation or the benefits of eating healthy. If you disagree, cool. That joys of opinions am I right.
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Religion is what conflicts me about this, but I think I've made peace with it and found my own path.
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