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Why these words instead of percentages for perks and addons?
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Can we also get off this "people can't do ANY math because binomial distributions are hard". most of the stuff in this game is pretty normal , percentages off durations, speed increases, etc... Can everyone do "80 second gen speeds, 20% slow down rate" exactly correct, no. Can a lot of people see 20% and ballpark an idea pretty close, yes absolutely.
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Its not even ABOUT math. Its about affect. Its understandibg the perk, not being like a math teacher pretwnding making something that seems fun just basically math questions galore is fun.
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And percent can show a lot about something. I dont really see the point of not wanting it.
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Its more info, and in this game info is important.
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If someone tells me "This offering rises considerably ur luck" and I know "luck" is just the chance to get myself off the hook... Than I would have the expectation that I have a AT LEAST 20 % chance to get off the hook PER TRY. Otherwise it wouldn't be "considerably" for me. Same thing goes for anything else. Why should I care about a 4% to 7% change for a thing which didn't affect me in upper most cases because I simply wait for someone to unhook me? This "considerably" just rise my expectation.
Or these map offerings... "Tremedously"... If theren't another map offering, I didn't encounter JUST ONE moment, in which another map spawns than the one from the offering. So what are the odds? 99%? Man, just give me the numbers, if I hear "tremendously", than I would think there is a small chance that another map spawns, maybe a 10% or 5% chance. These words just don't match my expectations, so they are just dumb in my opinion.
This whole discussion is so weird to follow because some guys really think these words are a better option than some percentage numbers.
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"This whole discussion is so weird to follow because some guys really think these words are a better option than some percentage numbers."
Yes, because every single time so far that someone made an argument about how their personal opinion of what considerably means doesn't match that of the devs, they displayed their complete ignorance of why the devs went with words in the first place, including you.
If we were to judge by your standards, nearly all luck offerings would say slightly, which would be silly.
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The problem here is that you're mixing the base mechanic with the addon effect. Luck is a very low chance and you're right saying that it's a bad base value (that's the whole point, but that is a different discussion), but the effect of the addon is to almost double that chance. It doesn't say that it makes luck a considerable/high number, just that it has a considerable effect on the base value. No one consider that offering because the base value of luck is so low that even with a 75% increase it is still a low value.
In other words, your problem seems to be with the base value of luck, not the addon effect, which that does exactly what it says it does.
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"If we were to judge by your standards, nearly all luck offerings would say slightly, which would be silly."
yeah, isn't that literally the exact reason he and everyone else is saying percentages work WAY better than words? I literally have no idea what to expect out of the words because some people thing "considerably" means "going from should never try to unhook" to "should still never try to unhook", or "considerably" raise chance of map selection to "tremendously" means 5X to *9999*X.
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Yeah this entire thread is just a couple dudes trying to flex by doing basic algebra
Even if people don't know exact values seeing the difference between the effects of two addons in the same series would make a world of difference
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heck they could go all the way, collate the add on buffs on the tool tip of the first-aid klit, give the total percentage AND list how many seconds off a normal heal that is.
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Really don't see the argument against making what things do more clear, I shouldn't have to go to a wiki to see what the actual impact something has on the game.
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Lol if Tremendously means 3% more luck... we don't have the same definition of Tremendously xD
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There's no math term that defines what "tremendously" means, which is part of the problem. If it said "Tremendously increases in relation to the base chance of luck" or "tremendously increases if you attempt to escape multiple times" then that would be different, but it doesn't.
Yeah compared to the base value that's a lot, but you know what else can be called a lot? A flat 75%. You know what else can be called a little or "slightly"? A flat 3%. There's nothing pointing to either one by just saying "tremendously" and that's it. It'd be much clearer to everyone to just give the number.
Words like "slightly" are up to personal interpretation, while the raw number is not.
"Oh its +3% oh ok that's not worth it to me" or if you have the other line of thinking "oh its +3% when it starts a 4% that is worth it to me". Either way the conclusion is the same, it just saves you the unnecessary vagueness. People will have the same conclusion after they look it up anyway. The main point is my "slightly" might be different to your "slightly" or the particular dev that worked on that specific item/add-on "slightly", especially since there's no other context. Again, its very subjective.
Also by that route, why do some add-ons like Pigs video tape have "slightly" but its 50% and on that same exact add-on it says "slightly" for a different effect but its only 20%. Then, there's things like cold dirt that say "considerably" but its only 15%, lower than "slightly" on a different add-on. All compared to their initial values.
There's no consistency either. Its just poor design and unclear for no real reason.
Post edited by MrPenguin on2 -
Can you elaborate on the "there's no consistency" part?
As for pig's add-on: sure 50% is a lot in terms of percentage, but is the effect all that big? Crouching already doesn't take long to complete, so 50% off of that isn't all that much of a difference.
Have you noticed how many descriptions on the wiki are different from the game? I don't work for the wiki, but I remember one of the admins saying that they had to do this to be able to add the mouseover stuff showing the values, since many of the numbers wouldn't make sense with the game's description. The admin gave the example of a clown add-on. Bottle of chloroform, I think. The game says that it expands the area of effect, whereas the wiki says that it expand the area of effect as well as increases the velocity of the gas cloud spreading out, since that is how the code actually makes this add-on work.
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its not for crouching, its for the ambush charge time. The luck offering is worded in terms of percentage being large compared to the base value even though the flat value is small, so why is this one not the same?
We already see a problem. Is it based on the base value like luck? In that case it should not be "slightly" but something much more. Is it based on the flat value? Well in that case luck offerings (the lips) should be "slightly".
There's no metric to go off of. It seems to be essentially whatever the person writing it decided it was.
FYI the Combat straps, which is the add-on that actually effects the crouch speed, reduces it by roughly 23%, and that also says slightly. So in just the terms "slightly" we have in just a few Pig Add-ons, anywhere from 20-50%, but throw in say, Myers "slightly" stalk duration which adds 10 seconds, now we have anywhere from ~15-50% just for "slightly". Throw in Legions ruler, which is 10% recovery speed, and now slightly is from 10-50%. But Legion "considerably" is only 15% on one of his add-ons.
Even in terms of time, Pigs "slightly" from the tape is 0.3 but the bag of gears is ~1.6, but Myers gets 10 seconds on his "slightly". Meanwhile legions "considerably" on his dirt is 0.6 seconds. But legions "moderately" for frenzy duration is also 15% or 1.5 seconds.
There's no consistency anywhere, percentage, raw, or even which is being used. Even within a single killer's or item's add-ons it's all over the place, let alone the entire game.
These are just the ones I happen to know as well, I'm sure if I looked through the game I'd find even more examples. The words are in practice meaningless for anyone who actually want's to know how much it impacts the character or decide if its worth it to use over something else or at all.
I could replace say, Legions cooldown add-ons (which would be his fatigue because inconsistent word choice) with the description: green "reduces cooldown" and the purple "reduces cooldown, but more than green" and it'd convey the same amount of info, which is to say, not much at all.
Post edited by MrPenguin on1 -
Sorry, I confused the two Add-ons, but my point remains that the difference between default charge time and add-on charge time isn't all that big, despite the seemingly large percentage.
I think you have not quite understood what the words refer to exactly. They do not refer to the value, ever. They only refer to the effect that value has on the result of that which it modifies, because depending on what it modifies, a given percentage such as 5% can be just as much a big effect (ie for chance) as it can be a small effect (ie charge time).
The metric the devs use, is the change in resulting effect compared to the default value. If the effect is small, it's "slightly/moderately", if it's large it's "considerably/tremendously". If that's insufficient a metric to you, then I don't know what your problem is exactly, because it's logical to me. Especially the second part of your argument seems to indicate to me that you have a big misconception about the modifiers. Again, they are in relation to the effect, NOT the values.
Different add-ons affect different values. You can't just go "well, slightly will now mean 10% for add-ons in the game", that would cause some add-ons to be completely out of whack, whereas others would have an effect that might as well be inexistent.
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As far as I know that has never been stated by the devs, but even if that is the case then its all subjective and there's no reason to not include the numbers since its up to the person anyway. You don't consider the Pigs Combat straps and video tape a big deal, but I've heard plenty a pig main say how those add-ons are very strong. Old Demo rat liver and rat tail were pretty impactful (and still are), but they also said/say "slightly".
Even with that metric then the values don't line up correctly. Some of the killers much stronger add-ons still say "slightly" or "moderately". If the devs are projecting what they think an add-on is worth then they really shouldn't because they have shown they don't understand their own game or they should update the descriptions as the game develops and the players who actually understand the game determine what's worth what (and even then there's not agreement).
If they just include the values however they wouldn't need to since its right there and people can decide what's worth it or not and how strong they are on their own.
There are "considerable" add-ons I would consider "slightly" and "slightly" I would put under "considerably".
There's still more reason to include actual values than just "well as a dev I feel like its this strong." Well good for you but this is supposed to be here for information not your feelings.
This is also is at odds with what you said earlier and the branching point for this whole convo with "you peeps don't understand the math." There's no math to "I feel like its this strong".
So its either inconsistent values, or subjective/misleading descriptions. Either way it can all be avoided by just having the numbers and should change. There's no substantial benefit, if any benefit at all, to keeping it the way it is now.
I can look at botany and be like "hmm, well its 33% is that worth it over x or y?" as opposed to if it said "moderately increases healing speed" or if Ruin said "regresses at a moderately increased speed". Thanks you gave me no info besides "increases x by a value the dev feels is moderate."
They already have numbers on perks, what's the big deal with add-ons and items?
Post edited by MrPenguin on0 -
What's the big deal?
I gave the reasoning for that: it wouldn't work for a majority of the current add-on, they'd have to be reworded and rephrased, which is likely to be at the end of the devs' list of priorities.
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It wouldn't work to have the already implemented values just typed out? How?
Just change "Moderately reduces charge time" to "reduces charge time by 10%" or "Moderately reduces charge time by 1 second", whichever or both if you want.
If you're talking about when you said "Different add-ons affect different values. You can't just go "well, slightly will now mean 10% for add-ons in the game"" then you seem to have misunderstood. I never said we should change all "slightly" to 10% or anything of the sort, I've been advocating to get rid of it entirely and just make the current values visible.
When I was talking about values I was just showcasing how they are all over the place since you asked for clarification on how they're inconsistent.
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Yes, it wouldn't. Most game descriptions, as they are currently, are not compatible with the actual values behind them, it's the main reason the wiki's descriptions are almost always different, while keeping the sense.
Yes, they are all over the place, but I explained why that is.
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There's no reason why they would be "not compatible", how is changing "slightly reduces charge time" to "reduces charge time by 50%" not compatible? Its already working just fine in the perks so I don't understand why you came to that conclusion. If you trying to say the slight rephrasing, which is just a text change for grammar reasons, is somehow groundbreakingly hard to change that's asinine. I just did it.
As for the second point yes you explained why you think that's how it is, and I explained why that's not a good reason too keep it as so if that is the case and how that's a flawed system.
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Off the top of my head, I only remember the original version of nurse's anxious gasp add-on, but I know such cases still exist with many newer add-ons. Of course that stuff could be reworked, the wiki has done that, but right now, it's not as simple (as some suggest) as flipping a switch to replace all modifiers with the value.
Anxious gasp used to say that it considerably increases the blink movement speed. So people would probably assume that behind that considerable increase, the value would be something like +15% to movement speed, right?
However, how the devs actually increased her blink movement speed was by telling the game to reduce the time it takes her to reappear after blinking by -15%. The resulting effect is the same: she moves faster, since the game tells her that she must reappear at the target distance sooner than usual, forcing her to move faster from A to B during a blink (basic principle of the speed-distance-time triangle).
So in cases like this, "flipping the switch" would result in the value "contradicting" with the description. That's what I meant.
We'll have to agree to disagree on the second point, as I don't find your arguments compelling, and you don't find mine compelling either, apparently.
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So heres my question. A percentage is accurate. You can feel the chsnge and see how it dhanges things, or how fair it is. Like the flashlight beam addons. I dont want to know what ut technically is, i want to know how far the beam is when i use the addon . These assumptions are for NEWER PLAYERS, like mostly every uodate has something for. Why is it so hard to use percentage? Why does the math matter? We arent making the addons. Percentage is clear and makes sense. Why NOT use percentage?
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Then the descriptions already contradict themselves using the same example you just did. It doesn't "considerably increase blinking speed" it "considerably reduces time to reappear after a blink." But that system "works" in the game.
If the resulting effect is the same, like you said and I agree with, then there's no need to change the description so drastically to reflect the underlying code. We don't need the underlying code, no ones asking for the underlying code.
The point isn't "the description doesn't reflect the underlying code", that's pretty normal in games. It's "the description doesn't give me a value I can use reliably of how much its changing what its changing." It's just what someone felt like it was.
If you changed that add-on to say "Increases blink speed by 15%" then its done, that's all that's being asked for, is to get rid of the "slightly" and just give us an accurate number of how strong the effect is.
You can pretty much take the value the wiki gives on the mouse over and slap it in and you'd be done or just give everything you can as a percent value. I can't think of an add-on where that wouldn't work, every example I gave would be fine.
"Increases blink speed by 15%"
"reduces cooldown by 15%/0.6 sec"
"Increases charge rate by 50%"
"Increases EWlll duration by 10 seconds/16%"
It' not difficult to implement and works just fine.
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