Distortion is unreasonably too weak!

OMEGALOL

Entità said:

@Crizpen I know how to counter BBQ: I made a comparison between the maximum power of the BBQ and the maximum power of four Distortion, in ideal conditions, and four Distortion are worth 2/5 of a BBQ: this is not a balance. We agree that the reality is different: the ideal consumption of a car, indicated in the instruction booklet, is almost always unattainable under normal driving conditions, but gives an idea of ​​the average consumption of the car you are about to buy, do you understand the meaning of my comparison? In reality both BBQ and Distortion give worse results than expected, but this does not compensate for the initial imbalance.

Now, tell me something: in your opinion, is it different if the killer does not see anyone because of the distance, the lockers or the survivor hidden behind the gen or because of Distortion? The killer goes away from the hook in the first cases and magically becomes a camper and a tunneller in the second? And how do you know why people are invisible? Above all, the first strategies are for free, Distortion is a perk and you pay a slot to get it and it has to live up to expectations, and it's 1 perk among 59: not all survivors will run it, don't speak as if it were a passive protection given to everybody.

With the current system, Myers can destroy the perk by simply chasing you and stalking with the right add-ons, you are not master of your perk, it depends exclusively on the circumstances: what kind of protection does it offer? It needs more tokens or a charging system (like Stake Out) or, at least, the freedom of the survivor to activate it when he wants, instead of risking to see the tokens consumed when he does not care to hide. A weak and situational stealth perk would be the bad copy of Sole Survivor: look at it, nobody uses it... ask yourself WHY!

@Blueberry I have still to think about lockers reform.

Hello, I have played about 10 times with distortion I have never lost any token so I am desperate to see it's used at least once. Tough for a new perk not to be of any use, so difficult to judge of its interest if it is...

Entità said:

@Dabrownman1812 said:
The point is it would be way too strong if you could choose, also if you have to choose then you don't know what perks they have cause that means you'll have to preemptively activate it. It's great because you can go into a locker when someone gets picked up to avoid losing a token. When you're healing you block nurses for some time automatically. Once your aura is revealed for even 1 second, you already gave the killer info. So yeh, it's good how it is. 

If I don't know what perks attempted to show my Aura is my business, not killer's or other players'. Who wants to be shielded from the trial beginning can let it active: I don't care to be invisible in the first two minutes, I want to be invisible when I have been hooked twice and I'm in extreme danger. The locker reform is not related to Distortion: it's a new passive mechanic for all survivors, about which my ideas are not clear.

@Dabrownman1812 said:
Ummm only jump scare meyers will do that mostly, which isn't common. Most meyers dont attach aura reading while stalk so yeh, not much mentioning. It also runs freddy through the ground as he has to leave the chase, leave survivor, and wait 10 seconds to see the survivor aura

Very good point! I've completely forgotten this, because the Nightmare is the rarest killer I meet, when I play survivor: he can destroy your perk by simply bringing you in Dream World: if you are not able to find a gen or a mate within 30 seconds, Distortion has gone forever...

@friendlykillermain said:
NO its a bit too strong actually it needs a 180 second cooldown instead of token useage

Ehm... some explanation why it would be too strong? I made mathematical arguments: how can you rebut them in a line?

Look at Iron Grasp vs Boil Over: -75% wiggling effects for all survivors vs +75% wiggling effects for a single survivor, i.e. four Boil Over are equal to Iron Grasp (aside the secondary effects: a longer wiggling time in the killer perk and the disruption of hooks Aura-reading ability in the survivor perks). It's not madness: it's math!

Why do you want to destroy stealthy playstyle? If survivors loop, they are bad; if survivors use pallets, vaults and flashlights, they are bad; if survivors hide, they are bad... what the hell survivor playstyle do you want? All these Aura-reading abilities are destroying the game atmosphere, nobody cares about crows or sounds or blood: no, let's see all people with magic powers... What are the bushes, the dark areas for? What is Yamaoka Estate for? What is the use of the Dark Mist? Do all the maps flat like The Game and we'll finish it, then.

@Entità ok you say that is the best case scenario that BBQ can see all the survivors fair. Le'ts talk about the case where BBQ can't find survivors in that case the new perk became useless. and now let's talk what really happen in games most of the time the BBQ will find 1-2 survivors and the killer will kill 2 survivors so if we say he/she hook them 3 times this is 2x3x2=12. So 12 time is the most like it a number a killer will see the survivors ( keep in mind i see 2 no 1). With the new perk, the number goes down to 6 ( if he sees only the same 2 survivors). With this number now you see the perk can counter 50% of the aura reading of killer alone. For me, this is not fail at all.

@Entità said:
@Bravo0413 I'll summarize you my point. I have compared FOUR Distortion vs ONE BBQ, and the result is the following: the maximum potential of 4 Distortion is equal to 2/5 of the maximum potential of 1 BBQ, in ideal, optimal conditions: this means that the entire team of survivors, considered as a whole, cannot even counter half the killer's Aura readings. Adding Bitter Murmur, A Nurse's Calling and other Aura reading faculties, the balance of power is even more unbalanced in favor of the killer. The bushes, the debris, the wheat fields, the trees, the ruined walls and all the structures are not only aesthetic decorations or obstacles for the chases: they are also hiding places. The killer has a first-person view and third-person survivors just to allow them to watch their backs, sneak in stealth when the heartbeat increases or something else suggests a strategic retreat. Dead by Daylight is a fatal game of hide and seek: the pallets, vaults, torches, are secondary tools, very useful, for heaven's sake, but the primary purpose of the survivor is to remain crouched, to evade the enemy. If you run, you leave red scratches and ravens flee scared; if you are hurt, the blood stains and the moans of pain betray your hiding place: these mechanics are becoming negligible, irrelevant, because the magic of the Aura shows the killer where you are: three quarters of the killers use BBQ, at least a third A Nurse's Calling , it's much easier to go without fail. I do not want the invisibility for free, I'm ready to spend a perk slot to get it, but give me back the atmosphere of tension, the thrill of the challenge, the fear of the unknown. Too many Auras, the rest is becoming side dish.

@DarkGGhost If Distortion counters some Aura-readings, the killer still enjoys up to 100% extra BPs, so BBQ doesn't become useless or weak.

you might want to rethonk that if its only 100% bloodpoints and the aura reading is gone then we lose more than yu think although it wasnt amazing the auraus really helped out

Bake the locker aura reading into the new Distortion survivor perk as a passive on it and if they use the locker to block an aura reading it won't consume one of their tokens. At least this would make it so it would cost them a perk slot if they really hated aura perks, abilities, etc.

^This. But that is not a buff to Distortion, it's a nerf for the Lockers (for those that do not run the perk). As it is now, Lockers block Auras regardless.

That being said, add the Locker Aura reading to the Distortion perk in order to balance the new Locker mechanic, but still buff Distortion.

Robb_Stark said:

I would change/buff Distortion as it follows:

1. Whenever you complete a Generator, you gain one token (something similar to Dark Sense).

2. Distortion should hide your Aura and your Location. That being said, it now affects Rancor, Doctor's Madness and Whispers.

3. Change the duration for each tier: tier I - 10 seconds, tier II - 15 seconds, tier III - 20 seconds. This change only helps with Whispers which would otherwise consume tokens way too fast. Also, remove the Scratch Marks part as this would make the perk overpowered.

Note: The Doctor can still hear you screaming, but your location won't get revealed.

Crizpen said:

@Entità said:

@Dabrownman1812 said:
Still an invalid point, horrible math for a 4v1. It's not a simple addition. You see, the killer can still only go up to and chase 1 survivor. So it still forces a 1v1 chase at most and allows the other 2 survivors to save or do gens. You're calculating use vs practicality and impact on the game.

Also for smart survivors. They know the map already and get in range or fake bbq reading by mindgaming the aura reading. bbq has counters already before distortion, and not all of the distortions will go off at the same time which you math doesn't calculate.  The survivor on the hook will keep the 3 stacks. 

You complain about bbq when many still stealth around it. Etc. Not only that, but some maps are since you wanna do the math, too big to look for survivors without aura reading because not every killer can zoom n search. Did you do the math on how fast gens get done? Lol. About 80 seconds at base and add 10 seconds if gen tapping with ruin. If a survivor is competent and keeps a killer busy for even 2 minutes, then there's the hook time before the travel to a survivor with a bbq reading. What does that make? Makes 3 gens done, 1 killer objective done (3 hooks per survivor so 12 objectives) and 3 survivor objectives done (survivors have to do 5 gens and 1 door so that's half done, 3 left).

Aura reading is there simply because at base, time isn't on the killers side. I'm a survivor main saying this, and I stil stealth bbq, still stealth nurses. Survivors aren't randomly having their auras read. 

You are forgetting that information is power, that intelligence is the beating heart of every war: you reduce the Auras shown by BBQ to only one, because only one is the survivor you can chase ... It's not like that at all. Seeing all the distant Auras means mastering the map, and knowingly choosing where to hunt: you instantly discover if someone approaches a hex totem, you know if someone is healing or repairing in collaboration (and you make a banquet, if your name is Leatherface) , you realize the strategies of maneuver of your opponents, you can calculate the probabilities that a survivor, after searching a Chest, go to the generator X or Y (which you see, too), in short, you have an exact photograph of the enemy's moves. If all this really were not useful, then the perk would be: "When you hook a survivor, you see the Aura of a random companion over 40 meters", since it is only one that you can follow, right? I don't want BBQ or A Nurse's Calling or Bitter Murmur or other killer detection perks are nerfed, which means a Christmas gift for all survivors: I simply want the freedom to buy a good shield, paying a fair price. Sole Survivor is not a good shield (not only bad, but also broken mechanic: https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/28469/sole-survivor-vs-bbq-chilli ), and nobody uses it: I hope Distortion won't share the same destiny, to be left on the shelves...

Let's speak concretely. What do you find unbalanced in my proposal (the three options are obviously alternatives, with preference for one of the first two)?
1) the largest number of tokens (4/5/6, instead of 3);
2) the reloadability of tokens (the @Robb_Stark proposal can be integrated as a recharge mode, for example: if you want to recover a token, then make the equivalent of a generator);
3) the ability to activate the shield on request.

The size of the maps (the swamps have been drastically reduced), the gen rush, the ease of destroying Ruin are all interesting and reasonable speeches, but you cannot mix all the game mechanics in a thread about a single, new stealth perk, however still experimental, under verification and settling (PTB means this: try and let us know your feedback).

There are very few killer perks which cannot be countered, even prior to Distortion. Among those that can be are both Nurse's Calling (don't heal in the terror radius or most killers) and BBQ (hide behind a generator, or rush within 40 meters when someone goes down), which also happen to be two of the most powerful perks killers get.

By comparison, would it be balanced for killers to have a perk that stops ALL exhaustion perks within their terror radius? Of course not. It would destroy Sprint Burst, Dead Hard, Balanced Landing and Lithe, making some of the most powerful survivor perks useless.

Furthermore, countering BBQ in particular is a distinctly bad idea. Most of the time, when hooking a survivor, you can see at least one other across the map. Hooking a new survivor for another stack, as well as having a general idea of where to find that survivor is a lot of incentive to leave the hook. Conversely, survivors generally (and should) assume the killer is running BBQ, and have at least a 40 meter head start on escaping before he gets there. They know where the killer is coming from, and SWF groups definitely inform each other where the killer is headed to give that survivor a better chance of escaping.

On the other hand, if the hook is made and no auras are revealed, there are several possibilities. Just as likely as any, and safer to combat, is that there are survivors within 40 meters, close enough to make a quick hook save. So why would the killer leave? Oh course, he wouldn't. Complaints about proxy camping go up, complaints about tunneling when the hook save is made with the killer nearby go up... no one is having as much fun.

Now, Distortion isn't being added in isolation either, it's also coming with locker changes which can be used in addition to block auras. See someone go down - head for a locker. While it should be a perk, or added to Distortion, it's not.

Having a 3-token cap hardly makes the perk weak. In your average match, the killer might see 3 auras from Nurse's, since people already know not to heal within the terror radius, much less 3 from a specific survivor. And, as for BBQ, it would require hooking 3 other survivors more than 40 meters away, which again, easily countered if you're concerned about your aura showing. Meaning, it will last all, or nearly all of the match if you're prioritizing hiding your aura over getting those extra 30 seconds on the generator when you may be shown. So no, there isn't a purpose in increasing the stacks when it's already entirely too powerful as it stands. All increasing the number of stacks, or allowing you to gain more stacks, will do is encourage survivors to play lazy, not smart.

Activating the "shield on request" is also fairly absurd, for much the same reasons. In effect, you can do this already by moving toward the down'ed player when you see them drop, saving your stack for later in the match. Deciding you're in a safe location to allow the aura to display, and then hiding it when you're in more danger would hand entirely too much power to the survivors.

But let's take the game pre-DLC as the base. According to the dev's roughly half of all survivors escape every match. That isn't true against specific killers, like Truetalent, Monto, TydeTyme, etc... but according to their numbers, it's about the average. In the DLC, survivors are getting this great new perk. They're also getting a nifty perk for sabo teams to utilize, and there isn't a single thing any killer can do to counter any of them.

Killers aren't so lucky. Iron Maiden is crap on anyone except Doctor, Mad Grit isn't worth running, Discordance might be somewhat viable on some builds, but is easily countered by survivors working on different generators. And, best of all, we get a killer who can't kill.

So, exactly how is survivors getting a great perk to help them survive completing their objectives, while killers don't, unbalanced for survivors?

Entità said:

@Crizpen @Dabrownman1812 You do real examples, but not very pertinent: the point is not to heal in the Trapper's terror radius in Coldwind Farm, the problem is to cure yourself with the Pig crouched in Lery or with the Wraith in The Game or with Myers in Backwater, to say. The problem is not to be seen with BBQ in the first minute of the game, the problem is not having any hope when you face Hillbilly or the Nurse in Shelton Wood, who has just sacrificed the last of your companions at the opposite end of the map. These are the cases in which stealth can save your life, it is in these circumstances that you need a Distortion worthy of the role. I repeat, they invented Sole Survivor, but it does not work, and nobody uses it: if Distortion protects you in the first minutes of play, when you do not need it, because the killer can choose other targets, because, if targeted, you can count on the rescue of others, but abandons you in the extreme need, it will not make a lot of career in the inventory of players, especially those who play alone, without parties and no friends ready to risk everything for you (yes, they're a race in extinction, but still some unfortunate solitary survivors exist...).

You say the truth, Sprint Burst, Balanced Landing, Dead Hard and Lithe are very powerful perks for the survivors, and a good majority of players use them, but not me: I do not find any pleasure in mocking the killer, I look for emotional identification, so constant tension, an electrifying challenge for survival, and mocking those who want to quarter you from behind a pallet is not very consistent with the atmosphere of absolute panic that anyone would feel if that situation were real. And we come to your fear that the killer no longer sees any Aura and stays near the hooked guy: as you have recognized, there are other perks of fashion, the stealth style is clearly minority, and there is no risk that everyone uses it, destroying BBQ (without prejudice to the gain of 100% extra blood points, of course): people have fun with the loops, with the flashlights, teabagging the killer whenever a juke is successful, and have no slot to waste with Distortion. In addition, the game was born without BBQ and worked for long months without the imperative need to introduce "spells" to find the prey: you cannot claim that the killer is doomed to defeat if one or two players occasionally shield their Aura reading ability.

Finally, I agree with the killer buffs: I do not like facing an insipid enemy, or being tasteless myself when I impersonate him. Above all, I detest the useless perks: every perk must be a winning card, a special resource that gives powerful advantages to those who choose to invest in it, and this is especially true for those who, with four perks, must deal with sixteen. You will never see me as opposed to the killer perks empowering, unless they give the certainty of victory, destroying the challenge.

@Blueberry said:

Here's how we buff distortion and handle the locker aura reading change in one.

Bake the locker aura reading into the new Distortion survivor perk as a passive on it and if they use the locker to block an aura reading it won't consume one of their tokens. At least this would make it so it would cost them a perk slot if they really hated aura perks, abilities, etc. Now those 3 tokens will only be needed when you get caught out and weren't expecting it but you can reliably use the locker.

Dude, I LOVE THAT idea.

@Entità said:
If, as you say, a neutral combination killer / map is much more likely than a combination killer / map unfavorable to the stealth survivor, then in most cases Distortion is a wasted perk, as it gives you a protection that you could get for free with the three ordinary mechanics (approach less than 40 meters, lock yourself in a locker or crouch behind a generator). You should therefore be glad that someone chooses Distortion instead of Sprint Burst, because while it is almost inevitable to be chased one or more times in every game and, therefore, Sprint Burst is always useful, on the contrary Distortion is situational, ie shows its usefulness when nobody of the three free remedies is possible, in fairly limited cases. I would understand if your challenge directly hit the new mechanics of lockers, free for all, while I sincerely do not take the sense of fighting a more effective Distortion in its function of ensuring, to those who want it, that is a minority of survivors, a stealth game . Reading the Aura of the survivors is not a basic mechanics: it is generated by a perk and by another perk can be countered (partially: 100% bonus remains, and is an important part of its attractiveness).

Okay, you're obviously not seeing, or not wanting to see the distinction. So, let's go real slow:

1) A survivor is downed.
2) Remaining survivors can a: rush into 40 meters, b: hide in a locker, c: try to hide behind generator aura, d: run away from their location for 4 seconds before returning.

In 3 of those 4 cases, the survivor isn't working on their generator, or all 4, if a side of the generator to hide their aura isn't available.

With Distortion, that's not the case. Lazy survivors aren't required to take any action to remain safe, and can gen rush to their heart's content.

What are the killer's choices?

Knowing what the survivor options are, he can a: blindly run around the map hoping to find someone else, or b: proxy camp to intercept the save, knowing he'll either ensure that kill, or pick up an additional survivor to chase.

Given these options, he's most likely to stay near the hook until he has a reason to leave.

@Entità said:
The killer leaves the hook because three other survivors can take advantage of it for a gen rush, sacrificing the hooked companion: the killer who wants 4k must get busy, cannot stay two minutes to scratch the balls near the first unfortunate who fell in their clutches. BBQ is a big incentive, I do not deny it, but I cannot accept the idea that the killers use it for the benefit of the survivors: the killers use it for their own profit, as it is right in a competitive game, not for philanthropic desire to ensure the adversaries' fun. I repeat, at least 85% of the killer I meet in rank 1 use BBQ and A Nurse's Calling or at least one of the two, while not even 30% of the survivors would choose Distortion instead of Sprint Burst, Decisive Strike and so on. I think your fears are decidedly excessive, in light of the clear preference of the survivors for a provocative gamestyle towards the killer.

Obviously, the killer doesn't run BBQ for the survivors' benefit, but that doesn't mean the perk doesn't help the game health, or provide the killer with the incentive to do something survivors beg for.

But you want more perks to counter play against other players. Okay, I want a perk that survivors can't self care, or they're always exhausted. That's fair, right? Those are powerful survivor perks that 99% of rank 1 survivors run. So, as the killer, I should have perks to counter yours. Why aren't those introduced to the game? Oh... right... because a perk shouldn't replace having a challenge in the game.

You want to go full immersive, fine. But immersed survivors aren't the only survivors who get locker changes and Distortion. And, no, I don't expect it will replace Sprint Burst / Lithe / BL / DH, or DS, it'll be used in combination with them.

I'm just saying, every thread I see on here with survivors bitching a blue streak about being camped and tunneled, I'm going to point to this perk as the reason why.

Will every killer do it? Of course not. But every killer will have less reason to stray far from the hook, and it won't be their fault - it'll be the survivors running Distortion, and the Dev's adding the locker changes. Enjoy it.

Yeah, how about no. Distortion isn't even needed. It's just a product of endless whining from Survivors who refuse to counter BBQ.

@Entità said:
@DemonDaddy No, it's not the only mean to counter Aura reading abilities, but BBQ is not the only problem: Freddy's dreamworld destroys your tokens, A Nurse's Calling is not counterable if there is a stealthy killer, some Wraith's, Myers' and Doctor's add-ons, Bitter Murmur are impossible to counter.

@SnakeSound222 Someone could say BBQ is a product of endless whining from killers who refuse to look for survivors without magic visions... Read above, please.

Sorry but BBQ is a product of endless whining from survivors about campers. Just that campers got incenitves to leave the hooks (vision and per-survivor-bp) instead of the by survivors oh so desired punishments.

I like the idea behind this perk, but yes, it is rather weak.
I think the token-based approach is not a good idea, but if we are to stick to it, we should be able to gain additional tokens.
For example one additional token for each generator that we fully-complete (it could be 30% of 1 generator + 70% of another for example). You might think that's not much, but we know that DEVs are very conservative and 2-3 additional tokes is not bad.